M
Member496333
Guest
Don’t know what you’re moaning about. No one is trying to stop you eating animals. It’s personal choice innit. Oh hang on thats not quite right is it...
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Don’t know what you’re moaning about. No one is trying to stop you eating animals. It’s personal choice innit. Oh hang on thats not quite right is it...
jjraak
Expert
my wild guess is.
those who get to make the foods,.
laboratories & chemical companies
(well it's not like it just grows on trees, anymore or have i missed the sausage roll tree
)Imagine all the preparation to get foods to market, costs, but when your selling to Billions
you'd willing pay a little bit to sponsor those wanting and needing some 'testing'
done, i think..hence why your point IS so valid..to have a discussion it needs BOTH points represented or
it's a monologue, if not a dictatorship.
And for that you need both side to present the facts as they understand them , and have those FACTS available to be individually verified by others, who , hopefully ARE independent.
Not sure we have that, at the moment.
M
Member496333
Guest
Hi @Oldvatr ,
I always enjoy your thought provoking kind responses.
I don't like to get into the "B" word. It's not where I marked the paper.
I like meat.
But giving this a little more thought. Regarding personal measured political discussions on this topic with my vegan/vegitarian friends..
That started me thinking about a different question. What demographic regarding diatary choice actually voted leave in the referendum?
Then thinking further about the current situation reported in the "news."
Could we have actually been herded to the "cliff edge" you mentioned, by our own carnivorous brethren?
I'm still looking, (for the answer to the source of that "joke.") the closest I got, was something like this? https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted
Oldvatr
Expert
The study is I believe the FRESH study that was used by EAT Lancet and environmental scientists around the world as a basic reference.
https://docs.wbcsd.org/2018/10/FReSH_Sustainable_and_Healthy_Diets_web.pdf
I also upload a snapshot taken from an EAT Lancet report that shows who sponsored the study, The EAT Lancet report had an even longer list of sponsors, including Nestle, Kellogs, Cargill, Barilla, The Wellcome Trust, The Nuffield Trust.along with many Big Ag and Big Pharma names as well, They publisjed that list on Page 2 of their report, and were very proud to do so, I do not have a picture since the report itelf has been place behind a paywall. That report became the Global Diet to Save The Planet that was presented to the CCC early last yeat, and which we see being carried into the CCC reports and recommendtions.
Attachments
HSSS
Expert
Not that there’s ever going to be a way to answer that with any degree of accuracy but do you really think people thought about dietary implications in amongst the rest of the factors? Beyond the shape of their bananas and toxic washed chicken that is?
Very very few people in the wider public even realise removal of choices regarding meat are being seriously considered. They see and hear encouragement of veganism but not the potential of the reverse - banning of meat. After all we live in a democracy don’t we? We have freedom to eat what we want don’t we? No need to even consider those liberties being removed ....................
Oldvatr
Expert
I would suggest that the demograph distribution of the Vegan society membership would give a clue to your dilemma. Certainly in my experience of my own family, it is the millenials that are definitely pro vegetarian and pro Extimction Rebellion. The older generation, of which I am party to, were generally bought up in an ecnironment that was primarily omnicore based, and attended school where physics and chemistry and science were a major part of the curriculum, whereas today it seem to be IT, and Media Studies,Hi @Oldvatr ,
I always enjoy your thought provoking kind responses.
I don't like to get into the "B" word. It's not where I marked the paper.
I like meat.
But giving this a little more thought. Regarding personal measured political discussions on this topic with my vegan/vegitarian friends..
That started me thinking about a different question. What demographic regarding diatary choice actually voted leave in the referendum?
Then thinking further about the current situation reported in the "news."
Could we have actually been herded to the "cliff edge" you mentioned, by our own carnivorous brethren?
I'm still looking, (for the answer to the source of that "joke.") the closest I got, was something like this? https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted
Whereas today we rely on Dr Google and Wikkipedia, I was schooled using libraries, debating societies, and lectures given by live presenters without a whiteboard or TV projector in sight. Our social media was down the pub and in the coffee shop, and over the garden wall. Now we get Max Headroom and memes and CGI to get our knowledge from. Soon we will be cgi'ing cows and sheep and milking parlours just to re-enact the historical dramas, (or maybe just not bother)
Planet of the Apes = here we come Welcome to the dawn of Brave New World as shown by HG Wells in the Time Traveller.
Ah, the tale of the Eloi & Morlocks.
One race branches & evolves into two separate species, For some reason after an inventor goes looking for a utopian socialist enlightened future of mankind..
I was attempting (through the "butterfly effect.") to put the case forward in defence of the perspective "Eloi."
Oldvatr
Expert
If you remember the Eloi were the sacrificial lambs being bred to feed the mechanism thus replacing the livestock that we use today. Not sure the Eloi came out of it well but they did have a happy childhood. Is this where we are headed?Ah, the tale of the Eloi & Morlocks.
One race branches & evolves into two separate species, For some reason after an inventor goes looking for a utopian socialist enlightened future of mankind..
I was attempting (through the "butterfly effect.") to put the case forward in defence of the perspective "Eloi."
jjraak
Expert
Not forgetting that (and facebook is a Prime example) even presidents have realised that the world today doesn't always function under OPEN discussion..a lot is now banned from open debate
Universities in particular seem to have been following the Facebook "Group" mentality
you know where if you don't AGREE your not allowed to speak and get booted out..which then means that YOU must be right..because the ONLY people ever allowed to speak are those who AGREE with you...= i MUST be right everyone agrees with ME..
....
Snowflake doesn't even begin to cover it.
The right to Liberty, freedom of speech, spoken of and defended until death
the Equality of Man
the Equality of Women
You'd think the idea of discussing any beliefs that contradicted our own, would be so ingrained in us now, NO ONE would think shutting out those who disagree with us, was a good idea..To stop challenge, expose and hold accountable the belief of others,
IS as Obama said, THAT moment when we move forward and progress.
and say.."You know, they MIGHT ...have a point "
The rabbit hole just got a whole lot bigger, and we are all in danger of following each other down it.
any way back on track.
So..IS the way forward to make us all eat highly processed Vegan/vegetarian food...
( no meat and billions to feed )......
is this the best course to save the planet.....NO imho
jjraak
Expert
Hi @Oldvatr ,
I always enjoy your thought provoking kind responses.
I don't like to get into the "B" word. It's not where I marked the paper.
I like meat.
But giving this a little more thought. Regarding personal measured political discussions on this topic with my vegan/vegitarian friends..
That started me thinking about a different question. What demographic regarding diatary choice actually voted leave in the referendum?
Then thinking further about the current situation reported in the "news."
Could we have actually been herded to the "cliff edge" you mentioned, by our own carnivorous brethren?
I'm still looking, (for the answer to the source of that "joke.") the closest I got, was something like this? https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted
and with the same due respect and regard to you that you gave @Oldvatr
and as one who also enjoys your posts..
I presume these young friend will now be immune to the ravages of time,?
( a novel idea that vote remain and live forever...
)And that your young friends and all those others forced into a certain way of eating,
will be enjoying a healthy mix of lower carbs, full of all of the essential nutrients they need,
and of course, could it be possible that the noxious mix of chemicals introduced into their diet now and over the coming years, will in any way, have glow in the dark tendencies or cause illness that we know of..(T2 ring a small bell
)OR any number of as yet undiscovered illnesses that could creep up as those very concoctions seep into every pore of the next gens fibre, during those aging years...?
( i do believe @Oldvatr mentioned in a post some aspects are NOT verified by the FDA as safe to eat, so companies circumvented that and described some items flavourings rather then ingredients ?..might be wrong )
much as it did this one, weirdly, come to think of it....
Are this decades decision makers going to be the next gens, Ancel keys
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Oldvatr
Expert
Thank you for your considered opinions, I will answer this by an observation I have made over the last week or so, We have had a larger number than usual of vegans and vegetarins joining this forum this week. If that WOE was as good for us as is claimed by some in charge of our future, then this is contrary to their claims. That some of these are considering going low carb and finding it difficult is no surprise to me, but is also indicative that the proposed Global Diet is not good news for diabetics in particular, and probably not for the general populace either.and with the same due respect and regard to you that you gave @Oldvatr
and as one who also enjoys your posts..
I presume these young friend will now be immune to the ravages of time,?
( a novel idea that vote remain and live forever...
And that your young friends and all those others forced into a certain way of eating,
will be enjoying a healthy mix of lower carbs, full of all of the essential nutrients they need,
and of course, could it be possible that the noxious mix of chemicals introduced into their diet now and over the coming years, will in any way, have glow in the dark tendencies or cause illness that we know of..(T2 ring a small bell
OR any number of as yet undiscovered illnesses that could creep up as those very concoctions seep into every pore of the next gens fibre, during those aging years...?
( i do believe @Oldvatr mentioned in a post some aspects are NOT verified by the FDA as safe to eat, so companies circumvented that and described some items flavourings rather then ingredients ?..might be wrong )
much as it did this one, weirdly, come to think of it....
Are this decades decision makers going to be the next gens, Ancel keys
The vegan diet is very restrictive and is nutritionally challenging to say the least. If not done properly, then indeed it will be harmful in the long term. The worry is that by the time we discover and accept that, then we will have dismantled the support structure that supports livestock farming. and cannot put the genie back in the bottle.
Our pets will suffer too. Removing livestock from the food chain will lose the land used for a start, We will lose the vets who make their main income from animal husbandry, and the feed mills will close. Petfood will have to go vegan because what animal protein there is will be reserved for humans so chicken. fish. duck, turkey will also disappear from the pet dinner plates. I foresee horses becoming uneconomic to maintain too, and goats and other specialist sources of protein such as Alpacca, camel. springbok. dikdik, kangaroo will very quickly be poached or hunted out of existance. What biodiversity that remains will be in the insect world but even that will be harvested. I believe it was Soylent Green that had the added protein component of maggots raised on human cadavers, but its a source after all so why waste it. We will be playing Whack a Mole for real soon,
Brexit is the starting gun, and the 40% tariffs will do nicely. The laws have already been passed in case you didn't notice.
M
Member496333
Guest
The anti-meat doomsday hysteria is spreading like a cancer worldwide. I'm not sure Brexit has much to do with anything. Certainly not longer term. No nation is immune to the effects of this agenda-driven flimflam. It's spreading around the globe like the shockwave from a city-sized asteroid strike. The flame-front feeding on money.
Are we heading for some sort of "prohibition" on meat like the 1920s alcohol temperance..
Are we looking at driving the humble steak underground with special secret clubs like a sort of "meat easys."
Or am i talking total Morlocks.
I feel its a pretty good "opportunity" to instigate an agenda under false pretences..
There will be those who can afford it.. For the rest?
There just may be some sort of Eloi'ver Twist..
Who's gonna lead the resistance??
Oldvatr
Expert
Very funny, You can see I am amused.
As an insulin user you can joke about this and you do not need to consider the need for low carb diets. These measures will force me and all other T2D onto insulin treatment before our time, and with 3m of us in the UK (> 5m by 2025) then I baggsie your share of the insulin. We outnumber you so it is not in your interests either.
robin47
Active Member
I read this report late last year. It’s mind boggling!
RETHINKX: FARMING AND AGRICULTURE - Precision Fermentation(PF)
Highlights of the report findings include:
* Industry Impacts
* By 2030, the number of cows in the U.S. will have fallen by 50%. Production volumes of the U.S. beef and dairy industries and their suppliers will be cut by more than half.
* By 2030, the market for ground beef by volume will have shrunk by 70%, the steak market by 30% and the dairy market by almost 90%. The markets for other cow products (leather, collagen, etc.) are likely to decline by more than 90%. In total, demand for cow products will fall by 70%.
* By 2030, the U.S. dairy and cattle industries will have collapsed, leaving only local specialty farms in operation.
* By 2035, demand for cow products will fall by 80%-90% and U.S. beef and dairy industry (and their suppliers) revenues, at current prices, will be down nearly 90%.
* Farmland values will collapse by 40%-80%.
* The volume of crops needed to feed cattle in the U.S. will fall by 50% from 155 million tons in 2018 to 80 million tons in 2030, causing cattle feed production revenues, at current prices, to fall by more than 50% from 60 billion in 2019 to less than $30 billion in 2030.
* Other livestock industries will suffer similar disruptions, while the knock-on effects for crop farmers and businesses throughout the value chain will be severe.
* Food Cost Savings
* The cost of modern foods and products will be at least 50% and as much as 80% lower than the animal products they replace, which will translate into substantially lower prices and increased disposable incomes. The average U.S. family will save more than $1,200 a year in food costs, keeping an additional $100bn a year in Americans’ pockets by 2030.
* Jobs Lost and Gained
* Half of the 1.2 million jobs in U.S. beef and dairy production (including supply chain), along with their associated industries, will be lost by 2030, climbing toward 90% by 2035.
* The emerging U.S. modern foods industry will create at least 700,000 jobs by 2030 and up to 1 million jobs by 2035.
* Modern foods will be far more efficient than animal-derived products: Up to 100 times more land efficient, 10-25 times more feedstock efficient, 20 times more time efficient, and 10 times more water efficient than industrial livestock. They will also produce an order of magnitude less waste.
* By 2035, 60% of the land currently used for livestock and feed production will be freed for other uses. These 485 million acres equate to 13 times the size of Iowa, an area almost the size of the Louisiana Purchase. If all this land were dedicated to maximize carbon sequestration, all current sources of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions could be fully offset by 2035.
* U.S. greenhouse gas emissions from cattle will drop by 60% by 2030, on course to nearly 80% by 2035. Even when the modern food production that replaces animal agriculture is included, net emissions from the sector as a whole will decline by 45% by 2030, on course to 65% by 2035.
* Water consumption in cattle production and associated feed cropland irrigation will fall by 50% by 2030, on course to 75% by 2035. Even when the modern food production that replaces animal agriculture is included, net water consumption in the sector as a whole will decline by 35% by 2030, on course to 60% by 2035.
* Oil demand from the U.S. agriculture industry (currently 150 million barrels of oil equivalent a year) will fall by at least 50% by 2030.
* The modern food system will be decentralized and therefore more stable and resilient, thereby increasing food security.
* Nutritional benefits could have profound impact on health, particularly conditions such as heart disease, obesity, cancer, and diabetes that are estimated to cost the U.S. $1.7 trillion each year. The way they are produced should also ensure a sharp reduction in foodborne illness.
* Trade relations and geo-politics will shift due to a decentralized food production system.
* Any country will be able to capture the opportunities associated with a global industry worth hundreds of billions of dollars.
The new report focuses on the food industry, but the same technology is poised to disrupt and blur the lines that separate food, cosmetics, healthcare, and materials. The sheer scale of this market opportunity will create a virtuous cycle, attracting talent and investment, increasing research and development, improving products and processes and inventing new ones, accelerating market growth, driving down costs and speeding up adoption.
RETHINKX: FARMING AND AGRICULTURE - Precision Fermentation(PF)
Highlights of the report findings include:
* Industry Impacts
* By 2030, the number of cows in the U.S. will have fallen by 50%. Production volumes of the U.S. beef and dairy industries and their suppliers will be cut by more than half.
* By 2030, the market for ground beef by volume will have shrunk by 70%, the steak market by 30% and the dairy market by almost 90%. The markets for other cow products (leather, collagen, etc.) are likely to decline by more than 90%. In total, demand for cow products will fall by 70%.
* By 2030, the U.S. dairy and cattle industries will have collapsed, leaving only local specialty farms in operation.
* By 2035, demand for cow products will fall by 80%-90% and U.S. beef and dairy industry (and their suppliers) revenues, at current prices, will be down nearly 90%.
* Farmland values will collapse by 40%-80%.
* The volume of crops needed to feed cattle in the U.S. will fall by 50% from 155 million tons in 2018 to 80 million tons in 2030, causing cattle feed production revenues, at current prices, to fall by more than 50% from 60 billion in 2019 to less than $30 billion in 2030.
* Other livestock industries will suffer similar disruptions, while the knock-on effects for crop farmers and businesses throughout the value chain will be severe.
* Food Cost Savings
* The cost of modern foods and products will be at least 50% and as much as 80% lower than the animal products they replace, which will translate into substantially lower prices and increased disposable incomes. The average U.S. family will save more than $1,200 a year in food costs, keeping an additional $100bn a year in Americans’ pockets by 2030.
* Jobs Lost and Gained
* Half of the 1.2 million jobs in U.S. beef and dairy production (including supply chain), along with their associated industries, will be lost by 2030, climbing toward 90% by 2035.
* The emerging U.S. modern foods industry will create at least 700,000 jobs by 2030 and up to 1 million jobs by 2035.
* Modern foods will be far more efficient than animal-derived products: Up to 100 times more land efficient, 10-25 times more feedstock efficient, 20 times more time efficient, and 10 times more water efficient than industrial livestock. They will also produce an order of magnitude less waste.
* By 2035, 60% of the land currently used for livestock and feed production will be freed for other uses. These 485 million acres equate to 13 times the size of Iowa, an area almost the size of the Louisiana Purchase. If all this land were dedicated to maximize carbon sequestration, all current sources of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions could be fully offset by 2035.
* U.S. greenhouse gas emissions from cattle will drop by 60% by 2030, on course to nearly 80% by 2035. Even when the modern food production that replaces animal agriculture is included, net emissions from the sector as a whole will decline by 45% by 2030, on course to 65% by 2035.
* Water consumption in cattle production and associated feed cropland irrigation will fall by 50% by 2030, on course to 75% by 2035. Even when the modern food production that replaces animal agriculture is included, net water consumption in the sector as a whole will decline by 35% by 2030, on course to 60% by 2035.
* Oil demand from the U.S. agriculture industry (currently 150 million barrels of oil equivalent a year) will fall by at least 50% by 2030.
* The modern food system will be decentralized and therefore more stable and resilient, thereby increasing food security.
* Nutritional benefits could have profound impact on health, particularly conditions such as heart disease, obesity, cancer, and diabetes that are estimated to cost the U.S. $1.7 trillion each year. The way they are produced should also ensure a sharp reduction in foodborne illness.
* Trade relations and geo-politics will shift due to a decentralized food production system.
* Any country will be able to capture the opportunities associated with a global industry worth hundreds of billions of dollars.
The new report focuses on the food industry, but the same technology is poised to disrupt and blur the lines that separate food, cosmetics, healthcare, and materials. The sheer scale of this market opportunity will create a virtuous cycle, attracting talent and investment, increasing research and development, improving products and processes and inventing new ones, accelerating market growth, driving down costs and speeding up adoption.
HSSS
Expert
Maybe we need to pay more attention to the vegans in here that mange to also genuinely low carb. We might have to follow suit no matter how difficult or undesirable to us it is and pray that supplements become affordable. That is if no one manages to stop this steamroller that seems to be hurtling downhill at a growing pace.
