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And so it begins: Eat less meat or we’ll make you.

Discussion in 'Food, Nutrition and Recipes' started by Jim Lahey, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Agree that fossil fuels should not be wasted like they are today. However, it is an oversmplification since once again the earth has natural non anthropogenically caused events that do the same on a large scale too. For GHG there is the natural growth / decay cycle of vegetation that starts off capturing carbon. but then releases it all again as GHG and ash. Forest fires are a natural event that spews vast tonnage of GHG into the atmosphere. Volcanoes do the same. marshland and lakes and stagnant water all contribute too. Now these do not involve mans activity, but we are not helping at the moment, In my lifetime farmers and forest rangers used sensible practices to contain nature such as putting in firebreaks, draining swampland, controlling watersupply with dykes and drainage etc, and using controlled burns and stubble removal to reduce undergrowth. Howerev in the last couple of decades, factory farming has caused the Great Depression and its dustbowl, and then we built houses and factories on floodplains. We have stopped dredging our rivers, we put water streams underground into culverts that block. We stop the aborigines doing their annual land maintenance rituals to burn off scrubland.

    We have lost the skills that our forebears used to control the land, and we greedily join into the throw away society. We use plastic daipers instead of the terry nappies, then wonder why our wetwipes cause fatbergs. We ignore the way it used to be done, and we create speedy one off solutions that make life easier, but at the same time make life unsustainable.
     
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  2. Mike d

    Mike d Type 2 · Expert

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    CARBON is an element, NOT a gas. THAT'S irrefutable basic science. We would not exist without CO2

    Nor has anyone proven that CO2 presents any danger to life on earth. Quite the opposite. Discussion over
     
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    #302 Mike d, Feb 12, 2020 at 10:29 PM
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  3. Tipetoo

    Tipetoo Type 2 · Expert

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    We breathe in O2, breathe out CO2 then rinse and repeat, so no getting away from that scientific fact...
     
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  4. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Well you would die in room full of CO2 but that's not the point. CO2 in the upper atmosphere acts like the glass in a greenhouse and causes global warming. What causes the increase in CO2 and what to do about it, including doing nothing, is the part that is debatable.
     
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  5. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Can we get back to discussing food and diabetes and the new legislation please?
     
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  6. porl69

    porl69 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Its a forum.....and, apparently, every ones entitled to an opinion :)
     
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  7. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    To add to the topic
    I notice there is no mention of makeup and beauty products that use palm oils. Palmoil is in amost everything we use and is heavily used to provide ersatz vegan friendly meals by replacing dairy. It is also largely responsible for the forest clearance in the Phillipines, and now taking over vast tracts of land in the South American continent, It is palm oil that is causing the amazon to be razed that and logging and mining on an industrial scale. But the vegans want the blame placed on cows because then they can hide behind that for their palm oil. Why is there no mention of palm oil or sugar cane from the environmentalists. Apparently some 40% of Brazils cars run on ethanol or palm oil that they are growing as part of their government decree. It is mandated that they use ethanol in all cars and even in aeroplanes (*Embraer). This is why the Brazil amazon is burning, and also because the Amazon basin is rich in Lithium deposits that are needed for batteries.
     
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  8. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

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    Ethanol is what started of civilization - in the form of lets all get together, organize growing grain and making it into beer.
    I'd have thought that having so much stuff which could be changed into ethanol - the technology has been around for millennia, it would be obvious what to do - not go with a high tech solution such as battery driven cars or bicycles.
    There is also the option of using oils - yes palm oil is causing the destruction of the rain forest, but to change to another oil would require more land, more water and pesticides and fertilizers, so rather than stopping the use of palm oil, why not find places to grow the palms which are not precious habitat but empty desert - just add water?
     
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  9. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Where would this water come from that you could "just" add to deserts, they are deserts because there isn't any water. Also ethanol production is not without environmental cost.
    https://foe.org/2010-05-how-does-ethanol-contribute-to-global-warming/
     
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  10. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    A number of posts have been deleted for bickering, belittling others and derailing the thread. Please stick to discussing the original topic.
     
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  11. Tipetoo

    Tipetoo Type 2 · Expert

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    Food for thought, on what can be achieved...

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Book_woorm

    Book_woorm Type 1 · Member

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    Just a thought. Given that methane is a worse greenhouse gas than CO2 how much Methane would humans produce if we all went vegetarian? I wouldn't mind betting that its similar what is produced by farm animals!! so net zero change. Just another example of the law of unintended consequences? And just how much more land would be needed to produce the required 'veg'.
    The real solution is a lower world population = less consumption of everything. Perhaps Nature is already on the case - HIV, Sars, Corona virus etc.
     
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  13. Roller

    Roller Type 2 · BANNED

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    No not an oversimplification. The main contributor to global warming as we describe is most definitely not down to animal farming. Okay. So let’s put it another way.

    Approximately 175 million years ago there was no ice at the poles. There was a larger percentage of seawater on the planet than there is today. (Antarctica was enjoying a more temperate climate for example). The Atlantic Ocean did not yet exist and there was a large Ocean known as the Tethys Ocean straddling the globe from east to west. The world was considerably warmer, the atmosphere was far more fuller of CO2 than it is now. The seas were teaming with phytoplankton which gorged on the sun and CO2 like had not been seen for a long time. This went on for millions of years. The phytoplankton not eaten, of which there was a colossal amount, then eventually died and settled on the bottom of the seabed where layer upon layer was buried in thick layers, and eventually baked at depth by a process known as catagenesis to form hydrocarbon liquid and gas. There it stayed for millions of years, locked under the surface of the earth until 20th century, where man intervened and brought the carbon in its combustible form to the surface where in only 100years half of those resources has been burnt by the petrol engine etc etc leading to millions of years worth of the carbon compound CO2 being pumped into the earths atmosphere in just one century.

    Get that. Millions of years worth of hydrocarbons being consumed in 100 years only. Given the source, i.e. C02 from the earths atmosphere 175 million years ago, over millions of years, that is a lot of CO2 that we have pumped into our atmosphere in recent times.

    The whole process has gone into reverse. So by far the biggest contributor to global warming is exactly as described above and not cow farts. So don’t worry guys about your sources of food.
     
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    #313 Roller, Feb 13, 2020 at 8:07 PM
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  14. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    upload_2020-2-13_20-47-35.gif upload_2020-2-13_20-47-35.gif
     
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  15. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

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    I think the deserts are there because there isn't enough rain - with desalination, water storage, pipelines and irrigation whatever it takes, really - I am sure something could be done.
    I was not proposing growing corn for the production of ethanol, but using the waste which is a problem to dispose of at the moment. Burning ethanol produces only water and carbon dioxide - if done properly.
     
  16. Roller

    Roller Type 2 · BANNED

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    Yes. There is still water in the desert, it’s just that the water table can be quite low. Colonel Gadaffi was exploiting subsurface water resources in the Sahara desert by drilling water wells.

    The Eighth Wonder of the World.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River
     
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    #316 Roller, Feb 14, 2020 at 5:50 AM
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  17. Tipetoo

    Tipetoo Type 2 · Expert

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    Australia has been doing that for more than 100 years, by pumping water from the Great Artesian Basin up to the surface.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Artesian_Basin
     
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  18. pixie1

    pixie1 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Climate change has existed since the world began, it will continue to do so, it will continue to evolve and change. Animals, plants had to adapt or die and that was before humans existed.
    Humans had to evolve and adapt to the ever changing climate. Apparently it has been 1 or 2 degree warmer than it is today, also much colder. thats how the world works, same as the tide. Remember, Britain has never always been an island, Ancient Britain was once upon a time, attached to Europe (Doggerland)
    Photosynthesis is needed for our survival, cannot be completely carbon neutral.
    Humans cannot completely become vegans, our digestion system would need to adapt for hundreds of years for that to happen. Our digestive is not the same as gorillas, look how much they have to eat and do very little not as active as humans, At the end of the day, they need their protein as well, from insects, not exactly vegan.
    Humans need whole proteins which meat gives and other essential stuff which plant based diet cannot give us, if it can then supplements would not be necessary..

    High intense farming animal husbandry in America produce sub standard meat which is not good. People are confusing this with proper good practice animal husbandry which produce good quality meat. It's such a poor reason to demonize meat and dairy products , we know how important this is.
     
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  19. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Add to the intensive livestock farming of today the economic conditions that make it cheaper to ship out live animals to Poland (say) for slaughter, ship carcasses to Belgium (say) for cleaning cutting and packaging in plastic. then shipping back to the supermarket down the road from the farm makes unecessary environmental impact. Stopping hat could help save the planet. We discovered what a web of networks existed during thr horsemeat scam a few years ago, so these ploys exist. together with the scams that crossing trading boundaries levies and grants that support it. At least Brexit will help in this respect.
     
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  20. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Seeing that the UK was 2 degrees hotter than now in the Roman times shows that we can survive those conditions and thrive. Seeing paintings of bonfires and parties on the Thames in the 1800's shows that climate is quite variable naturally before the Industrial revolution.

    The corals used to be thought of being killed off by acidity rising in the oceans, but that theory seems to have gone away now in favour of the heating causing bleaching (?) I was taught that acidity does that chemically, and I have seen no explanation to date as to what the mechanism is for a 1 degree rise in temp doing this. I also dispute that CO2 causes rise in acidity of the oceans - simply because CO2 in an acid environmenrt in seawater creates calcium carbonate and aodium hydroxide both of which are alkali, not an acid. and it is actually neurtralising the acid in the sea instead.

    In fact, no one seems to have identified what the acid in the oceona is. I suspect it is acid run off from industrial activity and burning fossil fuels. I would think Sulphuric acid is a possible candidate since it is definitely causing acid erosion. but Nitric acid is possible due to the rise in NOX from petrol and diesel use. Of course, us humans expel hysdochloric acid in abundance since that is what stomach acid is. but then so do animals.
     
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