Well there are 68 million of the same people who can vote for Donald Trump after four years of President Trump. Very sad and very worrying. Refusal to vaccinate isn't 'populist sceptical neo-liberal sentiment'--it's just crazy rejection of science and knowledge, stupid and dangerous,
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COVID vaccination
- Thread starter notafanofsugar
- Start Date
Well there are 68 million of the same people who can vote for Donald Trump after four years of President Trump. Very sad and very worrying. Refusal to vaccinate isn't 'populist sceptical neo-liberal sentiment'--it's just crazy rejection of science and knowledge, stupid and dangerous,
I’m not against the vaccine in fact I’m all for the vaccine if it means we can get out of this crisis.
But as it is still unproven and the results are from controlled conditions and we still don’t know the long term effects. They don’t know how long it will be effective. Will we have to have the vaccine every few months or every year like the flu vaccine or will it last a lifetime?
I know that horror movies are fiction but they are bases in fact and they are taken to the extreme. But in the zombie movies they often start the same where a disease gets into the general population. Some a vaccine is developed but this causes mutations which turns people into zombies. Before the COVID-19 we wouldn’t of believed that a virus which we believe is from China would spread all over the world and effect our everyday life and kill millions. But the movies predicted this well before it happened in reality.
When the vaccines are approved will it even be effective as in Denmark they have already seen the virus mutate in minks. Also in controlled conditions the claims are that the vaccine is 95% effective. But as it’s only been tested for 7 months even less than that as the vaccine had to be created in the first place. There is still a lot of unknowns. They have also had vaccines in the past that were said to be safe then when rolled out had side effects. The MMR jab was one and solders were given a vaccine in desert storm and a lot of the solders had side effects after getting the vaccine.
But as it is still unproven and the results are from controlled conditions and we still don’t know the long term effects. They don’t know how long it will be effective. Will we have to have the vaccine every few months or every year like the flu vaccine or will it last a lifetime?
I know that horror movies are fiction but they are bases in fact and they are taken to the extreme. But in the zombie movies they often start the same where a disease gets into the general population. Some a vaccine is developed but this causes mutations which turns people into zombies. Before the COVID-19 we wouldn’t of believed that a virus which we believe is from China would spread all over the world and effect our everyday life and kill millions. But the movies predicted this well before it happened in reality.
When the vaccines are approved will it even be effective as in Denmark they have already seen the virus mutate in minks. Also in controlled conditions the claims are that the vaccine is 95% effective. But as it’s only been tested for 7 months even less than that as the vaccine had to be created in the first place. There is still a lot of unknowns. They have also had vaccines in the past that were said to be safe then when rolled out had side effects. The MMR jab was one and solders were given a vaccine in desert storm and a lot of the solders had side effects after getting the vaccine.
Oldvatr
Expert
I thought that the Democrats were the Neo-Liberalists.
Jo_the_boat
Well-Known Member
It's an awful disease and yes, people have died.Heart disease, strokes, cancers, etc are not contagious whereas Covid19 most definitely is.
England and Wales has seen an extra 58,900+ extra deaths so far this year, whilst these are not all going to be Covid related I am willing to bet the majority are. I am sure the families and friends of those deceased would not agree with your dismissive attitude.
There is a strong chance that if this was not being treated as "dreadful fatal virus" that the numbers of dead would be high enough to satisfy your scale. How many deaths do you think might be acceptable?
It can be argued that the 58k figure is very misleading.
'Died with covid within 28 days of a positive test' as a benchmark statistic is full of holes.
IMO we really need to question if our response now and throughout the year has been way overblown. As far as I understand it the virus sars-cov-2 which causes the illness is one of many similar. Previous ones arrival, development and disappearance have followed a pattern and this one is too. Many scientists believe that lockdowns, masks etc. have made almost no difference.
Overall deaths on October are following a 5 year average. Stats can be spun then spun again.
bulkbiker
BANNED
Heart disease, strokes, cancers, etc are not contagious whereas Covid19 most definitely is.
England and Wales has seen an extra 58,900+ extra deaths so far this year, whilst these are not all going to be Covid related I am willing to bet the majority are. I am sure the families and friends of those deceased would not agree with your dismissive attitude.
There is a strong chance that if this was not being treated as "dreadful fatal virus" that the numbers of dead would be high enough to satisfy your scale. How many deaths do you think might be acceptable?
But what about the other 450,000 people who have also died this year?
Some maybe from not going to hospital or being seen by medics or extra suicides?
Perspective is everything and this ridiculous concentration on one particular problem that 99% or so people recover from seems to me to be crazy.
wilky
Member
Informed consent is essential. There is no way all the dangers of this vaccine will be put to the public by official or mainstream sources, and certainly not by those administering it. Most news sources are informed solely by established medical orgs, drug companies and those with interests in there being a vaccination. Governments are putting out the same info and worse as they have a public policy based on vaccines and with Covid there is the issue of the economy given the way they are currently handling it. Informed consent is not happening.
Already we see a focus on the positives with hardly any reasonable discussion of the negatives. In the UK the BBC is blatantly biased in it's 100% one sided reports. That is no surprise as the BBC was established to disseminate government views and policy and still does exactly that today, all under the guise of the most independent news service in the world - it never was that and isn't.
Full info, or even slightly balanced info about older vaccines is not given, so why would there be anything on a new drug tested by the companies that are selling it? Also the time for the tests can potentially give some indication of the dangers over a short time but nothing at all of longer term dangers. It is simply not tested for that, nor are any vaccines. The tests aren't done, the questions aren't asked. Why?
It's a shame that so many sources of info that criticise the vaccine, and vaccines in general are flakey and misguided too, not all. But to shut down this whilst allowing the official and mainstream sources that are mainly equally flakey and misguided is a crime. In the UK Labour has lost my vote given what it has said.
Already we see a focus on the positives with hardly any reasonable discussion of the negatives. In the UK the BBC is blatantly biased in it's 100% one sided reports. That is no surprise as the BBC was established to disseminate government views and policy and still does exactly that today, all under the guise of the most independent news service in the world - it never was that and isn't.
Full info, or even slightly balanced info about older vaccines is not given, so why would there be anything on a new drug tested by the companies that are selling it? Also the time for the tests can potentially give some indication of the dangers over a short time but nothing at all of longer term dangers. It is simply not tested for that, nor are any vaccines. The tests aren't done, the questions aren't asked. Why?
It's a shame that so many sources of info that criticise the vaccine, and vaccines in general are flakey and misguided too, not all. But to shut down this whilst allowing the official and mainstream sources that are mainly equally flakey and misguided is a crime. In the UK Labour has lost my vote given what it has said.
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bulkbiker
BANNED
I find data like this quite fascinating.
As of today 339 people without co-morbidities under 60 have died in hospital with a "positive test" not even a confirmed diagnosis.
Jo_the_boat
Well-Known Member
I think these figures emphasize my point about overeaction.
Please don't think I'm being a clever clogs, I am as wary as anybody about covid. I've said before that we are all basically responsible for ourselves and family. If this means keeping out of the way sometimes, fine. But I believe this responsibilty also encompases learning and researching and, above all, keeping an open mind.
My point is that there are other views than the apocalyptic ones we've been dished up.
I'm trying to get my head round this: The vaccines apparently give 94% (?) protection when we have a 99.4% chance of surviving anyway.
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WackyJacky64
Well-Known Member
WHY DO WE NEED A VACCINE ???
Status of COVID-19
As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) in the UK.
The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase.
The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) is also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.
The need to have a national, coordinated response remains, but this is being met by the government’s COVID-19 response.
Cases of COVID-19 are no longer managed by HCID treatment centres only. All healthcare workers managing possible and confirmed cases should follow the updated national infection and prevention (IPC) guidance for COVID-19, which supersedes all previous IPC guidance for COVID-19. This guidance includes instructions about different personal protective equipment (PPE) ensembles that are appropriate for different clinical scenarios.
Status of COVID-19
As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) in the UK.
The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase.
The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) is also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.
The need to have a national, coordinated response remains, but this is being met by the government’s COVID-19 response.
Cases of COVID-19 are no longer managed by HCID treatment centres only. All healthcare workers managing possible and confirmed cases should follow the updated national infection and prevention (IPC) guidance for COVID-19, which supersedes all previous IPC guidance for COVID-19. This guidance includes instructions about different personal protective equipment (PPE) ensembles that are appropriate for different clinical scenarios.
Catlady19
Well-Known Member
The 58k extra deaths are not just Covid deaths, that is the figure for all deaths (against the previous 5 year avg), so no, that is not misleading it is simple maths.
I agree that stats can easily be spun but if you look at the figures on the ONS for weekly deaths you can see that actually for the last several weeks deaths have been around a 1000 a week extra compared to the last 5 year avg. Whether they are in fact due the SARS-COV2 virus or anything else, I think we could agree that is quite a lot higher than the 5 yr avg.
Catlady19
Well-Known Member
The vaccines apparently give 94% (?) protection when we have a 99.4% chance of surviving anyway.[/QUOTE]
Ah but how accurate is that 99.4% (which keeps changing depending on who is using it) anyway. I would suggest that it is considerably more if you are in an older age bracket and / or with an underlying health condition.
Ah but how accurate is that 99.4% (which keeps changing depending on who is using it) anyway. I would suggest that it is considerably more if you are in an older age bracket and / or with an underlying health condition.
Lemonie
Well-Known Member
I would have been more likely to have taken the vaccine if all the big pharma companies hadn't applied and been granted exemption from COVID-19 Vaccine Liability Claims. So governments are allowing big pharma to rush experimental vaccines, with no legal recourse if something goes terribly wrong.
“This is a unique situation where we as a company simply cannot take the risk if in ... four years the vaccine is showing side effects,” Ruud Dobber, a member of Astra’s senior executive team
If they have no confidence in it then neither do I to be honest. Not yet.
“This is a unique situation where we as a company simply cannot take the risk if in ... four years the vaccine is showing side effects,” Ruud Dobber, a member of Astra’s senior executive team
If they have no confidence in it then neither do I to be honest. Not yet.
Catlady19
Well-Known Member
Up to 6 November there have been 485,564 deaths in England and Wales - what are these poor people dying of? The same things they would of died of anyway perhaps? Yes, people may be dying sooner because they haven't been referred or are not getting treatment; some may be because of suicide (although there is currently no evidence that suicides are higher). But still, 58K extra deaths? Whatever people are dying of, 58k extra deaths is a lot of souls.
As I asked before, how many extra deaths are ok on your scale?
99% is probably not an accurate recovery rate (according to your chart) for people with an underlying health condition (of which you are one).
On your basis of ignore the virus or get back to normal, why are you not championing a vaccine then, especially with an increased risk of dying, long Covid or who knows what long term heath conditions? With that perspective in mind perhaps we could achieve 'normal' again?
bulkbiker
BANNED
You think I have an underlying health condition?
Please share what you think that is?
For the simple reason that the side effects (and there undoubtedly be some) are currently unknown and that the whole process is being rushed through without adequate testing.If we were to vaccinate the entire world with a 95% success rate then 350,000,000 people would still be at risk.
Of the 10 people who developed severe COVID in the trial one had been vaccinated so it's not even a guarantee of mild cases.
Please feel free to get jabbed just don't expect everyone else to be as gullible.
Jo_the_boat
Well-Known Member
It's confusing because an ONS report today says there were 8 (8 not 800) more deaths in October 2020 over October 2019.
There may well have been extra deaths early in the year because the vulnerable, the aged and poorly, succumbed during the (expected) initial surge of the virus. (Front-loaded the statisticians call this apparently). Nobody is doubting there was (is still to a degree) a very nasty virus. And big mistakes were made early on with treatments and particularly the care homes. Yes, sadly some people died before their time.
Of those 43,265 deaths in October, 7.8% involved covid. Involved. Not died of. That's 3,367. Of those (if the percentage can be extrapolated from BBs post above) 96% had a pre-existing dondition and 93% were over 60.
That means the vast majority of people currently locked down are in negligible danger. From Covid anyway. In my opinion their future is being slowly throttled. That is dead wrong.
(I'm still theorizing here) In addition, you mention 1000 extra weekly deaths over the 5 year average. IF that's right, how many of those are because diagnoses, treatments, operations etc. were cancelled / postponed? In a way covid is responsible. A great many people suffer one way or the other from its effects, without being ill.
Finally, what we're doing here is debating. That's healthy. I'm no expert and I'm certainly no less worried for my kids and grandkids future than anybody else. Nobody (yet) has shut down our debate (hopefully they won't, I don't think either of us is exactly 'militant'!) so I hope the vax / no vax debate is allowed the same freedom as we are here.
joules
Well-Known Member
I think I'll stick to taking vitamin D thank you very much. Isn't it amazing how C19 numbers dropped majorly during the summer time to almost 0 deaths in the northern hemisphere. Says it all really... There's tiny money in companies to take on natural remedies and I think we are being taken for a ride with this vaccination that has not been tested enough to be given safely to the population.
With type 1 diabetes for over 30 years I'm not taking any chances in being a guinea for those companies, no way! That's my choice and I'm being careful of course.
With type 1 diabetes for over 30 years I'm not taking any chances in being a guinea for those companies, no way! That's my choice and I'm being careful of course.
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Lemonie
Well-Known Member
Covid was seasonally suppressed during the summer the same as the flu is each year. Respiratory viruses, including coronaviruses have a high infection rate during the winter months. It was always going to die down in the warmer weather ?
Regardless of what DHSC has said this vaccine has been rushed through in 7 months where a regular vaccine takes around 10 years to develop - the vaccine for chicken pox took 25 years - if it's so safe, why has Big Pharma et al been granted immunity from legal redress...
