COVID vaccination

[notafanofsugar]

I have had a delightful conversation with my friends this evening about the COVID vaccination. It was interesting to see everyone’s perspective. We were split in the middle between taking it immediately and not taking it at all.

 

[Max68]

Must confess I found it quite bizarre watching the news tonight that there were people interviewed who are dead against all restrictions but also wouldn't take the vaccine. Obviously we all want any vaccine to actually work and be safe but if only a low percentage have it that means you won't hit the target for herd immunity hence not eradicating the virus so restrictions would stay in place! So wondering what those interviewed would therefore see as a way out of this if restrictions or vaccine are not the answer in their opinion!

 

[MarkMunday]

Research just done in the US shows public support for a vaccine dropping to 51%. There is a big partisan split. Resistance is part of the populist sceptical neo-liberal sentiment. But there seems to be a big drop in confidence across the board ...

 

[bulkbiker]

Research just done in the US shows public support for a vaccine dropping to 51%. There is a big partisan split. Resistance is part of the populist sceptical neo-liberal sentiment. But there seems to be a big drop in confidence across the board ...

View attachment 45402

Possibly because a 7 month trial is in no way considered long enough to uncover any possible side effects?
Seems quite a sensible reaction to me.

 

[Member496333]

Labour now calling for 'misinformation' to be "stamped out".

Seems some are afraid that not everyone agrees that a rushed vaccine is a good idea, or even necessary. Any nonconforming views must be silenced

 

[Tophat1900]

Possibly because a 7 month trial is in no way considered long enough to uncover any possible side effects?
Seems quite a sensible reaction to me.

Is it the one being offered by Pfizer? Depends on how much you trust a drug company about this? They have been prosecuted and fined in the past for making false marketing claims.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pfi...lkb3O0cxU7vgOVUBvRvIVtYinqcga7t6hg0p8laVa9XMU

 

[bulkbiker]

If the vaccine means that I can travel freely, I am taking it immediately.

I fear that will be the coercive carrot that is used...

 

[becca59]

Listened to a virus specialist on the radio last week. For Covid 19 you apparently only need 50% take up for it to be effective, due to its R rate transmission. For measles which has a high R rate you need 90%. All very interesting.

 

[Hughie 2]

I reckon many countries will insist on visitors having a vaccination before arrival. So come the summer, a lot of people may think again about not having one!

 

[Sneckiepaul]

This thread is absolutely staggering. I feel that I have suddenly arrived at a Trump rally, sharing conspiracy theories and a breeding ground for anti-vax garbage. Exhaustive, huge-sample testing, disaggregated results and peer review will do for me. I rely on insulin and I will similarly rely on either of the two vaccines that are coming on stream and hope that all but a tiny minority do so too.

 

[AQureshi]

I think we should welcome the idea of having a vaccine. There will be more coming through, but as normal the rich will get the vaccine and those in poorer countries will not

 

[fbirder]

In the past a new vaccine would have required isolating the virus then finding a way to kill it or weaken it, so that it could still provoke an immune response while not infecting anybody (well, not too many). That could take many years.

The RNA sequence of SARS-CoV-2 was emailed around the world by Chinese scientists in January 2020. Three hours later one scientist had already determined a potential vaccine candidate. That cut three years off the development time.

In the past vaccine development would have gone along these lines -

1. Find a candidate.
2. Beg for funding for animal testing.
3. Perform the studies.
4. Write up and publish results.
5. Beg for funding for small scale safety testing in humans.
6. Find the volunteers.
7. Perform the study.
8. Write up and publish the results.
9. Repeat steps 5 to 8 for Phase II (safety/efficacy tests in hundreds of humans)
10. Repeat steps 5 to 8 for Phase III (safety/efficacy tests in tens of thousands of humans).
11. Send all the results to the regulatory agencies
12. Wait for approval
13. Find somebody to make millions of doses.
14. Woo-Hoo. We’ve got a vaccine.

Note that all those ‘beg for funding’ steps take a long time - and that time gets longer for each successive phase.

But vaccines for covid-19 have thrown that playbook out of the window.

The first three steps for animal studies would have been roughly the same. It’s after than things got different. There was no real begging for funding. Money was coming in from governments and big pharma. So they didn’t have to wait to start human trials. And they didn’t have to run them sequentially.

Once they they were sure, from Phase I, that it wasn’t going to kill volunteers they could start on Phase II and Phase III. Phase II started first while they tried to get enough volunteers for the efficacy testing. Phase III started before Phase II was complete.

And they’re not having to send all the data to the regulatory agencies in one batch. The MHRA have been looking at the data from the AstraZeneca/Oxford as it’s been released. So they should be ready to make a decision within a week or two after the final data.

And AZ have already said that they can make 4 million doses for the UK before the end of the year, and a billion doses next year.

So that’s how we get a vaccine in less than a year. We don’t cut back on the safety testing, we cut back on the begging for funding and the red tape.

 

[jinty73]

I have had a delightful conversation with my friends this evening about the COVID vaccination. It was interesting to see everyone’s perspective. We were split in the middle between taking it immediately and not taking it at all.

Seven months for a trial that should normally take years, no chance I’m taking it unless I’m forced to at work. I will eventually take it once I know people aren’t growing extra ears or bursting into flames but diabetic or not I ain’t being anyone’s trial beagle. Remember the miracle thalidomide treatment for pregnant women...yes it wasn’t a vaccine but regardless I ain’t trusting no vaccine for now

 

[uruudoshi]

This thread is absolutely staggering. I feel that I have suddenly arrived at a Trump rally, sharing conspiracy theories and a breeding ground for anti-vax garbage. Exhaustive, huge-sample testing, disaggregated results and peer review will do for me. I rely on insulin and I will similarly rely on either of the two vaccines that are coming on stream and hope that all but a tiny minority do so too.

This is truly an interesting discussion. If you speak with older ex military personnel who had been given all types of vaccines to prevent diseases whilst in combat zones, you will find they now are suffering with debilitating effects, memory loss, aches, pains, fatigue plus more. The interesting thing is, like most government investigations, they dont start until 30/40 years afterwards, so anyone affected is likely to be too I'll or deceased to challenge anything. Of course it will get wrapped into old age, dementia etc... because side effects from drugs can easily get hidden. I'm not against a vaccine but my right to receive or refuse it is and must remain my right.

 

[Catlady19]

The vaccines have been very quickly produced but most of the normal procedures in getting a vaccine tested and authorised have been pushed through a lot faster than normal because of the pandemic, people/companies have been collaborating more than they normally would and it has also had a lot of funding thrown at it. That doesn't mean that it has not been tested thoroughly or safety measures have been ignored. The whole world is watching (and potentially wanting to purchase a vaccine) and I don't think they will be likely to release something dangerous in these circumstances.

Whilst we do not know possible long term issues, most vaccines of this kind (I have read) tend to display any side effects sooner rather than later. Personally I do not see this vaccine as any different to the flu vaccine and luckily I only get mild side effects (sore arm, mild fever).

I think ultimately everyone has to be as informed as possible about possible side effects, the vaccine ingredients, etc and then take a personal view on whether you think the vaccine or Covid is more a danger for you personally.

 

[Akendall1966]

There seems to be a misconception that it rushed and the science is being short cut to achieve the fast development. Whereas I think you will find time is being saved by overlapping the phases. That creates a commercial/ financial risk in that you invest a lot of money in starting a phase before you know the outcome of the previous phase. The science is the same the sunk cost is much greater. With government underwriting that approach the drug companies risk share a drug not be effective and safe and being abandoned before commercial release. That's my understanding and am happy to be vaccinated at the earliest opportunity.
Also remember this is a one time vaccination not an ongoing therapeutic you take daily for decades so long term studies are unlikely to be relevant as it will have done its job and be out of yout system in weeks of having it.

 

[ian4468]

If there's a Covid Vaccine. I am more than willing to try.
I also would like to try the influenza vaccine, but as ( in my area anyway) the administration of the vaccine, has been a complete and utter shambles, and whoever is in charge should be sacked, for neglect and incompetence.
They are putting lives at stake. And you can bet their families will already have it done. Shameful.

 

[spendercat]

Possibly because a 7 month trial is in no way considered long enough to uncover any possible side effects?
Seems quite a sensible reaction to me.

A lot of people feel like that, including my sister, who is 60, diabetic, obese and asthmatic (just like me ,and younger to boot)and she is a vey senior nurse.
On the balance of risks however she will definitely have the vaccination.
I too will have it, I have had, and my children have had, every single vaccination the NHS recommended to me, without any consequences save immunity.

 

[Catlady19]

Seven months for a trial that should normally take years, no chance I’m taking it unless I’m forced to at work. I will eventually take it once I know people aren’t growing extra ears or bursting into flames but diabetic or not I ain’t being anyone’s trial beagle. Remember the miracle thalidomide treatment for pregnant women...yes it wasn’t a vaccine but regardless I ain’t trusting no vaccine for now

Whilst I understand your reluctance, I am pretty sure if anyone was going to grow extra ears or burn brightly, the thousands of people who have trialed it would be noticeable by now.
Remember that Thalidomide, whilst awful, happened in the 1950s, it actually worked extremely well for it's intended use (it is still widely used today [except on pregnant women obviously], it was not intended to be used as an anti nausea drug). Medicine advances move on very quickly (3 years is a long time) and so things that happened in the 50s cannot be compared to today's medicine.
At the end of the day, all we can do is listen to professionals (preferably independent ones) and make a decision on whether we feel Covid or the vaccine is more dangerous to us.

 

[Mijoed]

In the past a new vaccine would have required isolating the virus then finding a way to kill it or weaken it, so that it could still provoke an immune response while not infecting anybody (well, not too many). That could take many years.

The RNA sequence of SARS-CoV-2 was emailed around the world by Chinese scientists in January 2020. Three hours later one scientist had already determined a potential vaccine candidate. That cut three years off the development time.

In the past vaccine development would have gone along these lines -

1. Find a candidate.
2. Beg for funding for animal testing.
3. Perform the studies.
4. Write up and publish results.
5. Beg for funding for small scale safety testing in humans.
6. Find the volunteers.
7. Perform the study.
8. Write up and publish the results.
9. Repeat steps 5 to 8 for Phase II (safety/efficacy tests in hundreds of humans)
10. Repeat steps 5 to 8 for Phase III (safety/efficacy tests in tens of thousands of humans).
11. Send all the results to the regulatory agencies
12. Wait for approval
13. Find somebody to make millions of doses.
14. Woo-Hoo. We’ve got a vaccine.

Note that all those ‘beg for funding’ steps take a long time - and that time gets longer for each successive phase.

But vaccines for covid-19 have thrown that playbook out of the window.

The first three steps for animal studies would have been roughly the same. It’s after than things got different. There was no real begging for funding. Money was coming in from governments and big pharma. So they didn’t have to wait to start human trials. And they didn’t have to run them sequentially.

Once they they were sure, from Phase I, that it wasn’t going to kill volunteers they could start on Phase II and Phase III. Phase II started first while they tried to get enough volunteers for the efficacy testing. Phase III started before Phase II was complete.

And they’re not having to send all the data to the regulatory agencies in one batch. The MHRA have been looking at the data from the AstraZeneca/Oxford as it’s been released. So they should be ready to make a decision within a week or two after the final data.

And AZ have already said that they can make 4 million doses for the UK before the end of the year, and a billion doses next year.

So that’s how we get a vaccine in less than a year. We don’t cut back on the safety testing, we cut back on the begging for funding and the red tape.

I agree that considerable time has been saved on various approvals, and there was never going to be an issue with funding.
However, i am still a little apprehensive about rushing to have the vaccine. I have a few other challenges such as leukaemia and no spleen, which leave a question of just how effective a vaccine would be, and it has probably not been tested on people with immune system issues. Additionally, I’ve done a good job of shielding so far and have cautiously been going out and about. I will eventually have it but I’ll wait a few months.