Back from Remission, weight gain.

[Worthingbloy]

Morning all, I've hit a bit of a wall....Quite hard for me to take in...I started at 93kg Type 2 on Metformin (SL).
About 1 year ago I was really doing well, 77kg, stopped the Mets, (Nurse was very happy) lots of endless, endless cardio, carb at around 100g a day, eating around 2000k mostly Rice based carbs. I'd save them up! The odd occasion a bit of toast. So a few comments on my weight lost on how I looked drained and gaunt/ill. I must admit I did look this way and really felt like I had no energy. I was exhausted.... Therefore I starting weight training, focusing on Muscle growth. I finally got my weight to 83kg with less body fat..Marcos @ 170p, 180 Carbs, 90 fats @ 2210, Really felt stronger and alive! In the last couple of months, I've been feeling strange tingling feelings in feet and hand so I thought I'd run some checks, to my horror my fasting tests are 10-11 and around 8-10. at other times. Drs have put me on Mets again! I thought I was doing all the right things, building muscle etc. Nurse is unhappy about weight gain although understanding of my goal. Any ideals, without going to Keto?....I am really against the idea of Keto diet as it's so restrictive for me (I know it works for lots of others, I'm not judging far from it) and in a household of 5, I'm chef chief! As it is I cook everymeal from scratch and the household has already changed their diet to my low end (ish) carb one. Thanks in advance sorry for the long question....

 

[bulkbiker]

.I am really against the idea of Keto diet as it's so restrictive for me

What do you find restrictive about it?
Your current macros are obviously not working for you so maybe we need to address the anti-keto mindset?

Had an HbA1c recently?

 

[Mr_Pot]

Morning all, I've hit a bit of a wall....Quite hard for me to take in...I started at 93kg Type 2 on Metformin (SL).
About 1 year ago I was really doing well, 77kg, stopped the Mets, (Nurse was very happy) lots of endless, endless cardio, carb at around 100g a day, eating around 2000k mostly Rice based carbs. I'd save them up! The odd occasion a bit of toast. So a few comments on my weight lost on how I looked drained and gaunt/ill. I must admit I did look this way and really felt like I had no energy. I was exhausted.... Therefore I starting weight training, focusing on Muscle growth. I finally got my weight to 83kg with less body fat..Marcos @ 170p, 180 Carbs, 90 fats @ 2210, Really felt stronger and alive! In the last couple of months, I've been feeling strange tingling feelings in feet and hand so I thought I'd run some checks, to my horror my fasting tests are 10-11 and around 8-10. at other times. Drs have put me on Mets again! I thought I was doing all the right things, building muscle etc. Nurse is unhappy about weight gain although understanding of my goal. Any ideals, without going to Keto?....I am really against the idea of Keto diet as it's so restrictive for me (I know it works for lots of others, I'm not judging far from it) and in a household of 5, I'm chef chief! As it is I cook everymeal from scratch and the household has already changed their diet to my low end (ish) carb one. Thanks in advance sorry for the long question....

You could go lower carb without being keto. My wife and I share the meals, she is not diabetic so I either leave out the carbs she is having or substitute with something else. Cauliflower for rice, squash for roast potatoes, swede for mash, corgette for pasta etc.

 

[Worthingbloy]

What do you find restrictive about it?
Your current macros are obviously not working for you so maybe we need to address the anti-keto mindset?

Had an HbA1c recently?

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I personally really find it really over restrictive for me and my family. Being at around 100g if carbs was enough. I want to show my children that balance and behaviour in diet is key and not cutting out food groups to extreme, taking a apple and a banana/ hummus/carrots for a snack to school instead of a bar of chocolate is a good example of my family approach.

Sometimes I find a over the top aggressive approach by lovers of it and anti keto group of course.

HbA1c is at 9.7

Could be my macros, I’m keen to keep protein at a good level for muscle mass but an worried about fats going to high to compensate lowing the carbs?
I know something has to give..

 

[Worthingbloy]

You could go lower carb without being keto. My wife and I share the meals, she is not diabetic so I either leave out the carbs she is having or substitute with something else. Cauliflower for rice, squash for roast potatoes, swede for mash, corgette for pasta etc.

Thanks...did you find your calories went too low and lost weight? Its taken me ages to get to get my weight up. I’m looking at sensible swaps now as you suggested. Actually going for squash today with a roast chicken...great idea thanks

 

[bulkbiker]

I want to show my children that balance and behaviour in diet is key and not cutting out food groups to extreme, taking a apple and a banana/ hummus/carrots for a snack to school instead of a bar of chocolate is a good example of my family approach.

And for your kids that's likely fine for the time being.. however you are a T2 diabetic with a rather high HbA1c so that kind of food is obviously not good for you.

Being at 100g of carbs is fairly obviously not controlling your blood glucose well.

If you cut back on carbs then fats and protein are the macros to increase so why not do it ?

 

[lucylocket61]

I maintain my blood sugar levels on around 80g of carbs a day. There is a lot of wriggle room between lowering carbs, and going full keto.

You children are not type 2, so healthier foods is great, but the occasional sweet things are fine too. Choices which are too restrictive for them can be counterproductive.

Are you quite a black and white sort of a guy?

Do you have any concerns around eating more fats?

Personally, I love cauliflower florets as a pasta substitute.

 

[Worthingbloy]

Thanks, just concerned about adding up many of the other macros and cutting back on carbs to a point of no energy...I think it looks like the only way to go, I’l keep reducing the carbs whilst sticking to a maintenance calories...in you experience will taking Mets have a effect on the numbers post meal and HBA1c?

 

[Deleted member 475901]

There is no reason to fear fats as long as they are not in highly processed high carb foods. Plenty of research on this if you are interested. So you and your family can eat filling meals if you transfer to fat burning instead of carbs, and you can maintain weight if it drops too low by adding more good quality fat.
Maybe look at some of the sites by low carb mums?
And please be careful about saving up carbs - are you checking if these are causing potentially damaging spikes? I found from testing that even though my blood sugars dropped on 100g a day, more than 30g in one meal could cause spikes high enough to be causing nerve/eye damage.

 

[Worthingbloy]

I maintain my blood sugar levels on around 80g of carbs a day. There is a lot of wriggle room between lowering carbs, and going full keto.

You children are not type 2, so healthier foods is great, but the occasional sweet things are fine too. Choices which are too restrictive for them can be counterproductive.

Are you quite a black and white sort of a guy?

Do you have any concerns around eating more fats?

Personally, I love cauliflower florets as a pasta substitute.

Thanks. We have a treat box for the kids all in moderation rather than reward. Both have egg and nut allergies...we really don’t get how that worked out! I also have a treat...mine comes in a bottle called Gordons..other brands too!
Def black and white...its hard as there is so much information out there, especially in the fitness area of diet...I’m no expert but finding a coach that fits with type 2 is very hard to find...still searching...

Hence why I’m here for real life opinion with no bias..

Rice is the only major carb I eat...then lentils, pulses...I actually love cauliflower...

Love all fruits too...I’d happily give the rice up for water melon!
80g could be manageable...def cautious over healthy fats....

 

[Worthingbloy]

There is no reason to fear fats as long as they are not in highly processed high carb foods. Plenty of research on this if you are interested. So you and your family can eat filling meals if you transfer to fat burning instead of carbs, and you can maintain weight if it drops too low by adding more good quality fat.
Maybe look at some of the sites by low carb mums?
And please be careful about saving up carbs - are you checking if these are causing potentially damaging spikes? I found from testing that even though my blood sugars dropped on 100g a day, more than 30g in one meal could cause spikes high enough to be causing nerve/eye damage.

Thanks I will see whats around. The mere goggle of low carb takes me straight to keto sites.
Do you know any that are for low carb only 80-120 kind of area?

Ah..this makes sense...I thought saving them after I had a heavy weight training session was the way to go...maybe I should divide them up more...

 

[lucylocket61]

def cautious over healthy fats....

I was cautious too when I was diagnosed 9 years ago. There are lots of threads on here about healthy fats and cholesterol research.

 

[lucylocket61]

Thanks I will see whats around. The mere goggle of low carb takes me straight to keto sites.
Do you know any that are for low carb only 80-120 kind of area?

Ah..this makes sense...I thought saving them after I had a heavy weight training session was the way to go...maybe I should divide them up more...

The information on keto sites is useful, just eat more carbs than they suggest. There are useful links in my signature, under my posts.

 

[Mr_Pot]

Thanks...did you find your calories went too low and lost weight? Its taken me ages to get to get my weight up. I’m looking at sensible swaps now as you suggested. Actually going for squash today with a roast chicken...great idea thanks

Yes I did lose quite a lot of weight initially but it stabilised and I have been the same reduced weight for the last 4 years. You could increase the fat in your meals if you are hungry or losing weight, I didn't do that, I just don't avoid fat or have any low fat products.
If you are having butternut squash with your chicken I find it is best if it starts to become a little burnt.

 

[Oldvatr]

Metformin has a very limited effect on blood sugar levels. Typically full dose 2,000mg a day will give a drop of about 1 or 2 mmol/l at best. It is normally prescribed to diabetics for its cardioprotective properties and a slight reduction in Insulin Resistance.
You appear to be firmly married to the calorie mantra, which is causing conflict in your choice of dietary interventions. Carbs turn into glucose that gets stored in the muscle tissue and skin cells, and lipid fats are stored in the adipocytes such as the liver and in special fat cells. Now the muscle stores supply fast-acting short-term energy such as used by sprinters, but these stores deplete quickly, but lipid energy is long-lasting and is the energy for long distance runners, HIIT and manual labour. Think of running 220 meters race - start off fast, but after a while, there is a hiatus while you wait for the second wind, This is the switchover.

What I am trying to say is that carbs as energy is not very useful and is overrated. Most of the energy we need comes from lipid fat and internally generated lipids which our bodies create from carbs and proteins. Provided you are physically active, you can either increase the fat macro but alternatively can increase the protein to compensate for the reduction in carbs. Increasing fat intake provides saiety and helps stop the carb cravings, but increasing protein will improve muscle and add useful weight. Going full monty on either of these macros is necessary if doing keto diets, but is not needed for just a simple low carb diet but many misinterpret this and overdo the macros.

 

[Worthingbloy]

Metformin has a very limited effect on blood sugar levels. Typically full dose 2,000mg a day will give a drop of about 1 or 2 mmol/l at best. It is normally prescribed to diabetics for its cardioprotective properties and a slight reduction in Insulin Resistance.
You appear to be firmly married to the calorie mantra, which is causing conflict in your choice of dietary interventions. Carbs turn into glucose that gets stored in the muscle tissue and skin cells, and lipid fats are stored in the adipocytes such as the liver and in special fat cells. Now the muscle stores supply fast-acting short-term energy such as used by sprinters, but these stores deplete quickly, but lipid energy is long-lasting and is the energy for long distance runners, HIIT and manual labour. Think of running 220 meters race - start off fast, but after a while, there is a hiatus while you wait for the second wind, This is the switchover.

What I am trying to say is that carbs as energy is not very useful and is overrated. Most of the energy we need comes from lipid fat and internally generated lipids which our bodies create from carbs and proteins. Provided you are physically active, you can either increase the fat macro but alternatively can increase the protein to compensate for the reduction in carbs. Increasing fat intake provides saiety and helps stop the carb cravings, but increasing protein will improve muscle and add useful weight. Going full monty on either of these macros is necessary if doing keto diets, but is not needed for just a simple low carb diet but many misinterpret this and overdo the macros.

Thanks thats very helpful...Yes def married to calories...I like tracking them but not overly so( I keep this well away from the family) to avoid overdoing them in all circumstances...I’ll be mindful this switch over...I relate to that completely...I am defiantly going to speak to the Drs about the Mets...

 

[Worthingbloy]

Yes I did lose quite a lot of weight initially but it stabilised and I have been the same reduced weight for the last 4 years. You could increase the fat in your meals if you are hungry or losing weight, I didn't do that, I just don't avoid fat or have any low fat products.
If you are having butternut squash with your chicken I find it is best if it starts to become a little burnt.

Thanks...makes sense about the fats...I’m always hungry esp after hitting the weights..advise of the butternut taken...cant wait to see the families faces when I plate that up! Lol

 

[Mbaker]

From what I have seen in the body /power building and strongman arena, you will not get away with high carb, even with the muscle. Examples of this Dr Shawn Baker, Hafthor Bjornsson and Stan Efferding; all of these had blood sugar issues despite the muscle and being either at the top or near there top in their respective sports (all resolved with dietary changes). I have noticed that it doesn't matter if an athlete is endurance based either - it is not possible to out run the carbs.

Once you have been metabolically broken it seems apparent to me a path has to be trodden. Keto only restricts from convenience point of view (which is usually code for fast / fake food) ...., beans and grains, all of the other food groups are there and even treats (YouTube Ketoserts). So my after midday breakfast was 4 bacon sandwiches, mackerel sandwich, marmite sandwich and nuts (my mouth was bursting with flavours):


The bacon sandwiches are sweet in a meaty way, the fish monger made pate and marmite offer umami flavours and nuts for texture and other good things. Dinner will be mostly lamb shoulder with garlic and rosemary (I will have loads). All of this will fuel 100 barbell squats and X3 bar workouts.

I do butternut squash as well.

 

[Daibell]

Hi. I would definitely make sure I was having enough fats as well as proteins to go with the low carb. BTW bananas aren't the best fruit to have.

 

[Brunneria]

My suggestion would be to listen to your body (using a glucometer as your hearing aid)

if you test your blood glucose before eating, and then two hours after, if the rise has been greater than 2mmol/l then you have burdened your body with more carbs than it can cope with, and it is struggling - which will lead to a deterioration in your bg management and an escalation in your diabetes.

You will soon learn exactly which foods and which portions suit you and your body.
Then you get to choose whether to assign labels to your way of eating.
No need to call it keto, or low carb, if you don’t want. Just name it ‘the way of eating that suits my body best’.

While I completely agree with you that there is nothing more likely to drive people away from serious low carbing than Keto Zealotry, you might consider which you dislike the most - cutting carbs to whatever level suits your body best, or a progressive increase in blood glucose and an equivalent rise in medication to try and control the bg as your body fails to cope with the carbs you are eating.