COVID restrictions gone........................

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zand

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Once again we seem to be focusing merely on deaths from covid. It's important not to forget the long term after effects of having had covid, not just with long covid, but also an increase in conditions such as T1 and T2 diabetes.
 
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@Jim Lahey if you don’t think vaccines have saved lives there really isn’t much point in you and I discussing this any further, stay safe.
 
M

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@Jim Lahey if you don’t think vaccines have saved lives there really isn’t much point in you and I discussing this any further, stay safe.

That is not what I said. I said there’s no way to ever know if they have made a material difference or by how much. There’s an assumption that they have saved millions lives but I’m yet to see any data that convinces me of this. In fact some data paints a pretty dubious picture overall, but I won’t go into it here. Firstly because I will get censored, but also because this thread isn’t about vaccines.
 

Lamont D

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There is an independent organisation on YouTube channel, that has a rolling count of the statistics given on all three determinants of the pandemic, deaths, hospilisations and positive infections for every country in the world!
It is by any standard, statistical and reliant on information given!
Indeed on another channel, the numbers of those immunized and recovered are given except for one country, the U.K.!

Of course, it could never be totally accurate, but it does give the viewer the horror of the numbers of deaths across the world, associated to covid!
The only way, the question agreed to get the stats is very important to the answer!
If you ask a different question and it is loaded! The answer will be very different! As was seen by the freedom of information request, a couple of weeks ago.
Many of those who died in the first wave were over sixty and had underlying conditions, such as diabetes, those were not included in the FOI question! So do we discount those, who may have been members on here to ignore them as dying earlier because of covid?

Covid is not going away, but having no restrictions and no testing and no support and no way of knowing what the virus is doing is just reckless and negligent!

And I will say it again, the reason for the policy of this government decisions is money!
Only money! Disregard everything else! It's money! Big money!
 

Lamont D

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That is not what I said. I said there’s no way to ever know if they have made a material difference or by how much. There’s an assumption that they have saved millions lives but I’m yet to see any data that convinces me of this. In fact some data paints a pretty dubious picture overall, but I won’t go into it here. Firstly because I will get censored, but also because this thread isn’t about vaccines.

Until we have an inquest, and get down to the nitty gritty of and has happened since the beginning of 2020!
But as has been said, not everyone will get immunisation from any jab! Not everyone will stop being a carrier, not the superspreaders, not the idiots we have in our community! Look at the plague in football hooliganism!
Hillsborough should have been enough to put a stop to it, but the number of police officers required every game is really high? Being a teenager is pushing boundaries, so how you are going to stop raves and parties?

We have to protect those who are susceptible!
 

Mr_Pot

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One aspect of this whole saga that really stings is that the VAERS and Yellow Card data is completely ignored at every turn. Two thousand confirmed kills in the UK alone.
The 2,000 you mention are people who died shortly after having the vaccine, not surprising as the vaccine was proritised for the very old and vulnerable. The number who died because of a reaction to the vaccine in the whole of the UK is about 10.
 
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The 2,000 you mention are people who died shortly after having the vaccine, not surprising as the vaccine was proritised for the very old and vulnerable. The number who died because of a reaction to the vaccine in the whole of the UK is about 10.

Highly dubious. It’s been reported that only ten percent of all deaths and injuries are even logged by the system, but if we assume that’s false and take your data as fact, that doesn’t make it ok in the context of the rest of my comment which you’ve redacted.
 
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@Jim Lahey imay be reading you wrong, do you consider yourself to be an anti vaxer ? You seem to be confident in your highly disputed numbers of those who have died as a result of receiving a vaccine, but are apparently unable to determine if vaccines have saved any lives .....
 
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@Jim Lahey imay be reading you wrong, do you consider yourself to be an anti vaxer ?

I’m pro choice and pro informed consent. There is no long term safety data which, for me, means there is no informed consent. Anyone who claims to have safety data also has a time machine. My personal risk assessment points to the injection posing a greater potential risk to me than the virus. I may be wrong but that is my cross to bear and I will live or die with the consequences.

I’m aware that some folk may counter with the ‘but it’s to protect others’ mantra, but never before in history has a medication only worked if someone else takes it, so I roundly reject that idea. I encourage people to make their own choices and I will make mine. If that makes me an “anti-vaxxer” in the minds of some then I won’t lose any sleep over it :cool:

ETA: @BrianDoc vis-à-vis your main point that I redacted from the quote - one thing has nothing to do with the other. There are official sources which can be used to analyse vaccine injury and death. Contrarily, if a vaccinated person survives it is simply impossible to claim that they would otherwise have died.
 
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HSSS

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At a ~3% false positive rate,
where is that rate coming from please? Officially it is less than 1% I’ve read. In which case your numbers are way off. And a false positive is annoying/problematic for one person maybe one family. A false negative (between 40 and 60% in real world usage rather than experts in labs) impacts a huge amount more people that are then exposed to this falsely reassured person.
Somewhat moot now anyway as so few will be testing going forward anyway.
 

HSSS

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The CDC recently implied that the RT-PCR cannot actually discriminate between SARS-CoV-2 and influenza. I obviously can’t comment either way, but the almost complete disappearance of flu since winter 2019/20 does raise an eyebrow. The CDC document has of course since been Fact Checked but, to be honest, the official explanation is a right old word salad and seems designed to confuse even further.


so nothing to do with the measures in place to prevent the spread of the more transmissible covid has also reduced the spread of the less easily caught flu?


Links to these claims please so we can make our own assessment of the claims/fact checks rather than rely on your summary
 
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where is that rate coming from please? Officially it is less than 1% I’ve read. In which case your numbers are way off. And a false positive is annoying/problematic for one person maybe one family. A false negative (between 40 and 60% in real world usage rather than experts in labs) impacts a huge amount more people that are then exposed to this falsely reassured person.
Somewhat moot now anyway as so few will be testing going forward anyway.

Can’t recall where I read 3% but if we assume 1% that’s still 10,000 false positives per day. The actual number probably isn’t as important as the fact that the media like to pretend it doesn’t exist at all. False positives have had an impact on the trajectory of the pandemic response. Resulting in loss of business, family and literal life. It’s not trivial.
 
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so nothing to do with the measures in place to prevent the spread of the more transmissible covid has also reduced the spread of the less easily caught flu?


Links to these claims please so we can make our own assessment of the claims/fact checks rather than rely on your summary

Possibly. But we can never know for sure.

ETA: @HSSS I am not going to get into a game of link tennis. People either agree or they don’t. The information is freely available to everyone.
 
M

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Source please?

Or is this reported and claimed ‘kills’ yet to be investigated and potentially either confirmed or quite clearly unrelated.

Please see the edit in post #73
 
M

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One aspect of this whole saga that really stings is that the VAERS and Yellow Card data is completely ignored at every turn. Two thousand confirmed kills in the UK alone. A small percentage maybe, but never before have we celebrated a vaccine where one of the known side effects is death. Personal choice is one thing, but are we really ok with pressuring, shaming, bullying and bribing people into having an injection that may kill them? It appears that we are.

As all context has since been stripped from my early comments regarding vaccine injury, I will just come back to this briefly and hopefully draw a line under it before this all goes way off-topic. Please see the bolded parts of the quote.

My only point was that since there most definitely is a risk, no matter how small, it is ethically wrong, not to mention selfish, to shame everyone else into taking part. And if "shame" sounds like hyperbole, try living a day in the shoes of someone who has chosen not to be injected. It's a constant barrage of pressure from all sides.
 

Brava210

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I’m pro choice and pro informed consent. There is no long term safety data which, for me, means there is no informed consent. Anyone who claims to have safety data also has a time machine. My personal risk assessment points to the injection posing a greater potential risk to me than the virus. I may be wrong but that is my cross to bear and I will live or die with the consequences.

I’m aware that some folk may counter with the ‘but it’s to protect others’ mantra, but never before in history has a medication only worked if someone else takes it, so I roundly reject that idea. I encourage people to make their own choices and I will make mine. If that makes me an “anti-vaxxer” in the minds of some then I won’t lose any sleep over it :cool:

ETA: @BrianDoc vis-à-vis your main point that I redacted from the quote - one thing has nothing to do with the other. There are official sources which can be used to analyse vaccine injury and death. Contrarily, if a vaccinated person survives it is simply impossible to claim that they would otherwise have died.


Weird, but whatever
 

StewM

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Possibly. But we can never know for sure.

ETA: @HSSS I am not going to get into a game of link tennis. People either agree or they don’t. The information is freely available to everyone.
There's a lot of misleading information out there that makes wild claims* similar to the ones you're making, citing VAERS and the Yellow Card System. This has been disproven by doctors and fact checkers. The statistics your citing are probably in this bucket, but if you'd be willing to provide your source we could have more open discussion about the claims you're making.

*Nutshell sum up of complex analysis a cause and effect relationship was asserted where none in fact could be proven to any satisfactory level.
 
M

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There's a lot of misleading information out there that makes wild claims* similar to the ones you're making, citing VAERS and the Yellow Card System. This has been disproven by doctors and fact checkers. The statistics your citing are probably in this bucket, but if you'd be willing to provide your source we could have more open discussion about the claims you're making.

*Nutshell sum up of complex analysis a cause and effect relationship was asserted where none in fact could be proven to any satisfactory level.

No it’s ok. We’ve been over this already. I can’t hope to compete with doctors and fact checkers :shifty:

As I have said, we should all make our own choices based on our research and personal circumstances.
 

bulkbiker

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There's a lot of misleading information out there that makes wild claims* similar to the ones you're making, citing VAERS and the Yellow Card System. This has been disproven by doctors and fact checkers. The statistics your citing are probably in this bucket, but if you'd be willing to provide your source we could have more open discussion about the claims you're making.

*Nutshell sum up of complex analysis a cause and effect relationship was asserted where none in fact could be proven to any satisfactory level.

To what end exactly would this "misinformation" be for.

Who benefits from it?

There are many widely respected doctors and scientists saying that the experimental mRNA product is not necessarily harmless.

And of course who is funding the "fact checkers"?
 
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