Can You Ignore This...I Couldn't

[Outlier]

Yes: the relatively recent melamine scandal was not identified until those poor babies started dying, but started off a few years ago with it being added to pet food (they died as well).

 

[Mbaker]

Some "Food for Thought" comments above, thanks. I am not as obsessive about answers as I used to be, just like things to make sense mechanistically.

From Chris's presentation, he says neither meat, sugar / carbs or animal fats are diabesity causing. I am happy to dismiss meat as causative, as too many reverse on this and it has been around for too long before the epidermic

This is a story we see in other groupings around the world. where they started with a traditional diet and moved onto the western civilised diet based on processed foods. The Chinese, the Japanese, The polynesians, the ekimos, the inhabitants of the Yukon, and even in places like Mexico and Peru, Wherever theres a Macdonalds, and a Walmart we see a sudden rise in obesity and diabetes.

Although I agree that seed oils are not as healthy as they were marketed, I firmly believe that T2D is triggered by a high calorie diet with high fructose content on top. HFCS was inspired by the Devil. Maltose is an alcohol wrongly used IMO. Table sugar contains fructose which plays its part too. Seed oils may induce inflammation which isnot wanted, but fructose gums up the works well and truly with ectopic fat blocking the pancreas and liver and adding to the waistline too.

This is where I wobble a bit, as it was fructose I had the most of in whole food format along with the best known orange juice, and number 1 apple juice. The weight gain was tremendous in a few weeks. I am glad they now teach school children about the basics of diabetes; when I started to get symptoms like thirst, I attempted to quench this with..........orange juice. I probably added 20 points to my A1c doing that alone.

 

[onnecar]

Onnecar, we all have to decide where "acceptable" lies in the mix we call life - especially when we make changes, but just one comment (and it is merely a comment), when we lose weight, it tends to come from the places we don't want to lose it - face, chest are and so on, and much more slowly from the central region where our visceral fat hides out.

When I lost weight I too had folks saying I looked thin, that my face had changed and some asked it I had been unwell. It took me about a year (I think) for my weightloss to sort itself out and my body composition to settle into more acceptable areas (although my bosom will never be truly pneumatic again, I fear ).

For the last 8 years I have consistently stayed in the 48-50kg range, just plodding along.

I do hope your blood sugar stabilises in line with your hopes and that you can get to the bottom of your anaemia.

The anaemia thing has been going on Donkey's years, I cannot tolerate the iron tablets which doesn't help. I've had every test known to man too. Mostly after starting that diet where I lost weight and my iron levels plummeted. I'm not large now even I'd guess at around 60kg as I don't actually ever weigh myself these days. I'm 70 years old and do not want to look like a skeleton, before I am a skeleton. lol. I'm not very tall either at 5' 3". I do not eat a huge amount. I have made a lot of food sacrifices all my adult life believe me. None of us knows what another's life entails so I try not to be judgemental. They do what they do. I do what I'm happy with. I know of lots of people that have had issues with finger pricking over the long term. Everyone is different, Different amount of flesh on the fingers, difference in pain tolerance, It can cause skin hardness and other skin issues in some people. As I say, everyone is different.

 

[bulkbiker]

During my diabetes journey I always have to square off controversial matters to my own satisfaction. I have a mantra to not ever again outsource my health to someone elses belief system without checking for myself, especially as I have influenced my family and friends choices . I am happy with LDL, animal based diets and carbohydrate restriction. I understand the Randle Cycle as to why a clean high carbohydrate diet with minimal fat can "work" to a definition (although I am skeptical about the bio markers and 5 to 10 year health outcomes for a recovering diabetic).

For a long time I believed carbohydrates and sugar were the root cause of what I would term the majority case of Type 2 diabetes diagnoses, but could not square societies that when they ate clean high carb diets were in apparent health....then all of a sudden they have a diabesity epidermic. I have been watching Dr Chris Knobbe for a few years now, and can no longer put to one side what he is saying. For me his presentations are as compelling as the late (and great) Dr Sarah Halberg's do the opposite of what main stream says to reverse Type 2 YouTube.

I now believe that vegetable oils are the root cause of the majority of Type 2 and Obesity cases (and the majority of other non communicable diseases). I feel the sugar and grains that usually accompany the seed oils accelerate the disease process, as they help the ingestion of more of the oils in the hyper-paletable foods available. I think the oils engineer the damaging of the cells which leads to sugar / carbohydrate intolerance. My rationale is that if some societies can survive with good health on a higher carb diets (mostly in the past using clean carbs such as potatoes, bread, other vegetables with meats / fish / coconuts etc) something in the environment must have changed to get the results we see across the globe in a short period of time (relative to human existence). I will not be persuaded that the human genome could get anywhere changing across the globe in circa 130 years.

Chris, I believe has outlined correlative and other evidence in what I can only say cannot be coincidental, however this looks to me, better than the evidence that smoking can cause lung cancer. If you review the video below look at how many countries Chris references and then ask yourself were they healthier before the seed oils. So for me the 60 - 70% of the food like substances that contain seed oils break our bodily health, and for many destroy our ability to handle carbs / sugar. What do you think.

Great to see Prof Ben Bikman in the front row too.

 

[MrsA2]

Today I mentioned to my sister about the seed oils and connection with chronic disease. She said she was using olive oil pomace and when we looked on the front of the tin there are huge olives and then it says the word “blend” and “vegetable oil”
It turned out that at least 50% was vegetable oil.

So many people think they are consuming healthy olive oil and with packaging and confusion all round with labelling people are being duped into paying more.

Check out the brand "olivio", it is anything but pure olive oil. The olive oil content is miniscule (from memory, I only found this out when it was a substitute on my grocery order)

 

[MrsA2]

For the dangers of fructose see Prof Richard (Rick) Johnson

Personally I think its coming down to a combination of sugar/fructose, seed oils, quantity, the ubiquitous "lifestyle " and the billions and billions of dollars spent on food marketing.
It would be nice if just 1 thing affected or caused it, but any 1 cause is just too simplistic. 1 size doesn't fit all

 

[jjraak]

Interesting point @Mbaker

Cheers for link.

Just a quick point.

Just about 6 months in to LCHF, I went India.

Holiday so was happy to be 'slacker' in my control.

But I still tested just for interest.

Oddly the items I tested naans etc
Didn't spike me as expected .

Ended up considering, it was made fresh & not off a shelf wrapped in Plastic, so maybe less preservatives needed. ?

As for oils ..mmmhh.

Wouldn't many ingredients , the very building blocks of packaged foods be cooked & prepared in some way. ?

Not seen video as yet, but could that also be a part of the decline in other societies.

Thinking the change to SAD, Likely included a lot more imports to keep up with demand, of such oils & ingredients coming from the west ?

 

[Zhnyaka]

assuming that the cause of diabetes is in the environment, what about the fact that diabetes is inherited? And the risk of heredity does not decrease depending on the society and the diet adopted in it

 

[lucylocket61]

assuming that the cause of diabetes is in the environment, what about the fact that diabetes is inherited? And the risk of heredity does not decrease depending on the society and the diet adopted in it

True. The hereditary factors may be latent but not triggered due to avoiding environmental factors. Maybe.

 

[Nicksellick]

What do you count as a vegetable oil?
I subscribe to the personal fat threshold theory that Roy Taylor(I think), has written about. That seems to work for most cases whether they are in a first, second, or third world country.
I should add I’m only a year into my journey so I really don’t know what I’m talking about.
it was an answer to the question, Why me? I’m not really over weight, so how come I’ve got it and he doesn’t?

 

[Oldvatr]

assuming that the cause of diabetes is in the environment, what about the fact that diabetes is inherited? And the risk of heredity does not decrease depending on the society and the diet adopted in it

I believe the inheritance link is really for Type 1 diabetes risk. I have not seen any strong association connected tp T2D.

Type 2 diabetes: MedlinePlus Genetics

Type 2 diabetes is a disorder characterized by abnormally high blood sugar levels. Explore symptoms, inheritance, genetics of this condition.

medlineplus.gov

 

[Zhnyaka]

I believe the inheritance link is really for Type 1 diabetes risk. I have not seen any strong association connected tp T2D.

Type 2 diabetes: MedlinePlus Genetics

Type 2 diabetes is a disorder characterized by abnormally high blood sugar levels. Explore symptoms, inheritance, genetics of this condition.

medlineplus.gov

O_O I have always believed that the risk of heredity in t2 is higher than in t1 ...

by the way, I found it on this site https://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-and-genetics.html

 

[jjraak]

assuming that the cause of diabetes is in the environment, what about the fact that diabetes is inherited? And the risk of heredity does not decrease depending on the society and the diet adopted in it

I wonder if that would correlate with the increasing rise & breadth of the tsunami many call it of T2D ?

I'd consider the exponential rise IF every one who had it passed it on, could possibly account for a lot but nowhere near enough to point a finger at in blame.

And why would that 'just' suddenly start mud 80's...mmh.

Clearly even in this thread people have family members without it, while they do.

I do concede our childhood eating MAY be some of the trigger to tripping some of us into T2D, meaning some might be predisposed to damage early on that triggers changes later on in life.

I did as others did dive into the changes forced on national diets via sugar not fat & the march of fructose, etc into many more products .

But it does seems to me something else might also be at work as @Mbaker suggests

An interesting topic ..mmmmh.

 

[Oldvatr]

I wonder if that would correlate with the increasing rise & breadth of the tsunami many call it of T2D ?

I'd consider the exponential rise IF every who had it passed it could possibly account for a lot but nowhere near enough to point a finger at in blame

Clearly even in this thread people who have family members without it, while they do.

I do concede our childhood eating MAY be some of the trigger to tripping some of us into T2D, meaning some might be predisposed to damage early on that triggers changes later on in life.

I did as others did dive into the changes forced on national diets via sugar not fat & the march of fructose, etc into many more products .

But it does seems to me something else might also be at work as @Mbaker suggests

An interesting topic ..mmmmh.

I am minded that before the second world war there was very little diabetes. Even 30 years ago, when I was diagnosed, it was an unusual disease and was primarily a T1D membership. It has all exploded within my lifetime. and generally since the 1950's

 

[jjraak]

Hi @jjraak

Possibly in countries like India and Pakistan etc they use more fats like ghee and butter in their naans and yoghurt which maybe the reason why you didn’t spike so much. Use of real cream and real traditional food is what is the norm in these countries or was. They take their wheat to be freshly ground to the local mill and come home with with all the nutrients. The chickens are slaughtered in front of your eyes and milk is fresh from the cow. Sadly now especially in cities even in these countries ‘MacDonalds’ have set up shop and food packaging has taken over and they too are being deviated to the use of manmade oils. Obesity and diabetes is prevalent in countries like India too increased at an alarming rate.

Centuries before in ancient scriptures and religious texts there is mention of the benefits of olive oil.

I don’t know if anyone has heard of Tibb-e-Nabvi for holistic healing but dietary healing is a big part of this in dealing with chronic conditions.

Similarly Ayurvedic medicine also considers this important.

And isn’t it said “let food be they medicine”

Only recently Intermittent fasting has become all the rage but when you look at it our ancestors did fast or stayed hungry for longer periods.

I just recently read an article that the leaching of plastic is affecting fertility. It seems plastic is unvoidable nowadays.

A worthy consideration I hadn't taken in...yes maybe

I must admit to putting it down to the preservatives we put in food to keep it fresh, here in the West
Foods flown from around the globe then taken home buy us to eat days maybe weeks later.

Indeed the Indian gurus & fakhirs seem to have amazing control of their bodies...and the Ayurvedic teachings are strong.

Sad to see the rush to fast food over traditional but sadly understandable, TV & internet has its own influences over many of us.

And even here & the west the old pictures rarely show fatter people, where as now I doubt any pic of a beach or bar wouldn't include several more 'rotund gentleman ' the years gone by...
putting myself in that group, btw

Nice reply
Cheers.

 

[Oldvatr]

A worthy consideration I hadn't taken in...yes maybe

I must admit to putting it down to the preservatives we put in food to keep it fresh, here in the West
Foods flown from around the globe then taken home buy us to eat days maybe weeks later.

Indeed the Indian gurus & fakhirs seem to have amazing control of their bodies...and the Ayurvedic teachings are strong.

Sad to see the rush to fast food over traditional but sadly understandable, TV & internet has its own influences over many of us.

And even here & the west the old pictures rarely show fatter people, where as now I doubt any pic of a beach or bar wouldn't include several more 'rotund gentleman ' the years gone by...
putting myself in that group, btw

Nice reply
Cheers.

Sadly, despite Ayurvedic medicine and Yoga, the Indian subcontinent is now ridden with diabetes. The buddhist monks are struggling with a tsunami of D even despite being mainly vegetarian. The island of Tonga used to be upheld as a showcase culture, but has recently also succumbed to major diabetes outbreak. Maybe it is DDT causing it?

 

[Zhnyaka]

I am minded that before the second world war there was very little diabetes. Even 30 years ago, when I was diagnosed, it was an unusual disease and was primarily a T1D membership. It has all exploded within my lifetime. and generally since the 1950's

But so many people died during the two world wars, people with chronic diseases had a negligible chance of survival. In addition, we should not forget that even in the 1950s the world's population was less than 3 billion, and now there are 8 billion of us and the quality of medicine has greatly improved. Don't forget that insulin is only 100 years old last year, a century ago people like me died as children, and now we live to old age, and t2 is treated and diagnosed even less time than t1 (to be honest, I don't remember when drugs for t2 were invented, but definitely later than insulin), a low-carb diet is older than insulin, but for about half a century. The fact that we are alive at all is a miracle of modern medicine

 

[lucylocket61]

I believe the inheritance link is really for Type 1 diabetes risk. I have not seen any strong association connected tp T2D.

Type 2 diabetes: MedlinePlus Genetics

Type 2 diabetes is a disorder characterized by abnormally high blood sugar levels. Explore symptoms, inheritance, genetics of this condition.

medlineplus.gov

my paternal grandmother, my father, myself and my brother are/were all type 2 diabetics. All got it around the age of 48-50 years old. Its not lifestyle, I barely knew my father and didnt know my paternal grandmother at all. I know several people who got type 2 in family clusters, around similar ages. I believe the potential to trigger type 2 can have a genetic component.

 

[Oldvatr]

But so many people died during the two world wars, people with chronic diseases had a negligible chance of survival. In addition, we should not forget that even in the 1950s the world's population was less than 3 billion, and now there are 8 billion of us and the quality of medicine has greatly improved. Don't forget that insulin is only 100 years old last year, a century ago people like me died as children, and now we live to old age, and t2 is treated and diagnosed even less time than t1 (to be honest, I don't remember when drugs for t2 were invented, but definitely later than insulin), a low-carb diet is older than insulin, but for about half a century. The fact that we are alive at all is a miracle of modern medicine

The second world war was causing deaths, and thats tragic, but not due to diabetes in the main part. So diabetes was a rare condition then and has exploded in the years since, Something has cjhanged in these recent times, and the increase in T2D is not IMO a genetic caused progression.

 

[Oldvatr]

my paternal grandmother, my father, myself and my brother are/were all type 2 diabetics. All got it around the age of 48-50 years old. Its not lifestyle, I barely knew my father and didnt know my paternal grandmother at all. I know several people who got type 2 in family clusters, around similar ages. I believe the potential to trigger type 2 can have a genetic component.

The potential, yes, the trigger -no. We inherit a possible weakness that something uses to activate the diabetes condition. They have not identified any common gene mutation that would explain T2D. Most of my antecedants died of feebleness or gout or heart failure, and diabetes only surfaces in my mother who was T1D. There is more madnesss in my line than diabetes (which has been known about since the middle ages)