Sugars and Carbohydrates

[xyzzy]

Yes apologises to the OP the ADA thing needs a different thread.

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[Sid Bonkers]

Hi psr and welcome to the forum, the advice you have been given is all good advice and is based on the Glycemic Index (GI) which tells which foods have the most and fastest acting carbohydrates these are the "high" foods you have been told about that should be eaten sparingly if at all.

Medium and low GI foods are better for diabetics as the glucose that is extracted from them enters the blood stream slower than the higher GI foods so affects are blood glucose (bg) levels less. High, medium and low GI foods can be mixed so that the overall GI of the entire meal can be controlled to some degree ie eating a small amount of potato (high GI) with meat and vegetables that will be mostly medium to low GI so by eating fewer fast acting carbohydrates and more medium to low acting carbohydrates the meal as a whole is kept low in GI terms.

There are other methods you can adopt to help to control your diabetes and many people use a combination of methods to control their bg levels. Other members have already mentioned that a good starting place is the "Basic Information For Newly Diagnosed Diabetics" on this forum which is a well thought out and easy to understand introduction to controlling bg levels. Link below:
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/basic-information-for-newly-diagnosed-diabetics.26870/


Good luck in your diabetic learning curve, it gets much easier as you get to understand it more although it is quite common to feel overwhelmed with information when you first start out as so much information is disputed or contradicted by someone or other where ever you ask about diabetes. My advise would be to read as much as you can and learn to adopt an eating lifestyle that suits you that also helps to control your bg levels.

 

[Yorksman]

This means that I would be better of eating Doritos with 55g or Carbs per 100g than Ryvita with 66g per 100g .So In summary my question becomes ,Is it the total carbs per 100g or just the (of which sugars) that is important ? or is it both

The earlier advice, to avoid foods where the label has higher 'of which sugar' is sound, but it doesn't tell the whole story. White bread for example contains something of the order of 75g of starch per 100g. The white flour used to make white bread is highly refined and this starch is hydrolised into sugar by the enzyme amylase very quickly. In fact the process starts in the mouth with ptyalin (mouth amylase) in saliva. The process is so fast that products made with highly refined white flours have glycaemic response curves very similar to eating glucose. Other, more complex and less refined carbohydrates have different shaped glycaemic response curves. The shape of the curve is also dependant on the individual and factors such as the ripeness of fruit and how carbs are cooked etc.

Carbohydrates are grouped into alpha and beta types. Beta carbs are cellulose based and, with one exception, are not digested by humans as we don't produce any cellulases, enzymes required to digest cellulose. It has been a long time since our leaf eating days and our appendix has lost its usefulness. When beta carbs do exist in foods, eg. in a dark rye ryvita, it is classified as fibre, because it is not digested. In that particular product, it accounts for nearly 25% of the total carbs. Generally rye based grain products are less refined and higher in fibre.

However, the other carbs, the alpha carbs, are mostly digestible, but it depends on the saccharide types. The simplest form are the monosaccharides. Then we have disaccharides, oligosaccharides and then polysaccharides. Classification is determined by the number of single sugar units bound together in chains. Every food type is different. Food groups which are high in carbs but generally good for most diabetics are those oligosaccharides that contain galactose, galactooligosaccharides. These are not digested by enzymes in the stomache or intestine but are partially broken down by bacteria and only partially digested. Things like beans, pulses, brussel sprouts contain these compounds.

In addition, particle size is a factor. Semolina is a coarsely ground durum wheat and takes longer to digest than highly refined white flour. this means it is not acted upon as quickly by amylase as white bread. Semolina is used in many pastas and couscous.

A couple of systems have been designed to simplify the complex nature of carbohydrates in foods, one is called GI or Glycaemic Index and the other is called Glycaemic Load or GL. The latter tempers the former by way of portion size because it must be remembered that lower portions too significantly reduces the effect of carbs.

If you are new to all this, you really need to get hold of a meter and test for the effects that foods have on you. Start with the low GI foods and keep control over portions. See how you get on with the more complex carbs, brown rice, rye bread, pearl barley, wholewheat pasta and so on. Build up a picture of what works and what does not work for you.

 

[xyzzy]

I've continued the discussion here http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/ada-gi-or-carbohydrate-counting.51505/ so that its off the OP's thread

 

[catherinecherub]

It makes me wonder if the person, a new member, who started the thread thinks it is worth coming back.
He asked a simple question and it got highjacked well and truly.
New members are not clued up enough to appreciate long tomes about what is right and what is wrong for them based on other people's experiences and research papers.They just want answers to their questions in a simple, straight forward way.
We were all new to diabetes at various times in the past and I personally would have likened this thread to swimming in treacle even though I was given excellent advice from my G.P.
Hardly the forum's finest hour. People need to think about the OP's needs as well as their own.

 

[psr]

Hi
I would like to thank everybody very much for the advice and response to my question ,It did answer my main question and I am very grateful that people took the time to respond ,It is all a very confusing subject for me and even though as mentioned some of the replies seemed to be getting a bit "technical" for my limited knowledge I am not complaining as having all the different advice and opinions from a variety of sources should be a good thing in the end for everybody and help to build a greater knowledge of the subject in the end so Thank you all

 

[Yorksman]

It is all a very confusing subject for me and even though as mentioned some of the replies seemed to be getting a bit "technical" for my limited knowledge

Have you not had a welcome email from Daisy? She provides a brief summary, including good and bad carbs and which includes links. She responds to posts in the Newly Diagnosed section.

 

[daisy1]

Have you not had a welcome email from Daisy? She provides a brief summary, including good and bad carbs and which includes links. She responds to posts in the Newly Diagnosed section.

Hi psr and welcome to the forum

Although Catherinecherub put a link to this in her post, here it is on your thread for ease of reference and to keep it complete.


BASIC INFORMATION FOR NEWLY DIAGNOSED DIABETICS

Diabetes is the general term to describe people who have blood that is sweeter than normal. A number of different types of diabetes exist.

A diagnosis of diabetes tends to be a big shock for most of us. It’s far from the end of the world though and on this forum you’ll find well over 70,000 people who are demonstrating this.

On the forum we have found that with the number of new people being diagnosed with diabetes each day, sometimes the NHS is not being able to give all the advice it would perhaps like to deliver - particularly with regards to people with type 2 diabetes.

The role of carbohydrate

Carbohydrates are a factor in diabetes because they ultimately break down into sugar (glucose) within our blood. We then need enough insulin to either convert the blood sugar into energy for our body, or to store the blood sugar as body fat.

If the amount of carbohydrate we take in is more than our body’s own (or injected) insulin can cope with, then our blood sugar will rise.

The bad news

Research indicates that raised blood sugar levels over a period of years can lead to organ damage, commonly referred to as diabetic complications.

The good news

People on the forum here have shown that there is plenty of opportunity to keep blood sugar levels from going too high. It’s a daily task but it’s within our reach and it’s well worth the effort.

Controlling your carbs

The info below is primarily aimed at people with type 2 diabetes, however, it may also be of benefit for other types of diabetes as well.
There are two approaches to controlling your carbs:

• Reduce your carbohydrate intake
• Choose ‘better’ carbohydrates

Reduce your carbohydrates

A large number of people on this forum have chosen to reduce the amount of carbohydrates they eat as they have found this to be an effective way of improving (lowering) their blood sugar levels.

The carbohydrates which tend to have the most pronounced effect on blood sugar levels tend to be starchy carbohydrates such as rice, pasta, bread, potatoes and similar root vegetables, flour based products (pastry, cakes, biscuits, battered food etc) and certain fruits.

Choosing better carbohydrates

Another option is to replace ‘white carbohydrates’ (such as white bread, white rice, white flour etc) with whole grain varieties. The idea behind having whole grain varieties is that the carbohydrates get broken down slower than the white varieties –and these are said to have a lower glycaemic index.
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/food/diabetes-and-whole-grains.html

The low glycaemic index diet is often favoured by healthcare professionals but some people with diabetes find that low GI does not help their blood sugar enough and may wish to cut out these foods altogether.

Read more on carbohydrates and diabetes

Eating what works for you

Different people respond differently to different types of food. What works for one person may not work so well for another. The best way to see which foods are working for you is to test your blood sugar with a glucose meter.

To be able to see what effect a particular type of food or meal has on your blood sugar is to do a test before the meal and then test after the meal. A test 2 hours after the meal gives a good idea of how your body has reacted to the meal.

The blood sugar ranges recommended by NICE are as follows:

Blood glucose ranges for type 2 diabetes

• Before meals: 4 to 7 mmol/l
• 2 hours after meals: under 8.5 mmol/l

Blood glucose ranges for type 1 diabetes (adults)

• Before meals: 4 to 7 mmol/l
• 2 hours after meals: under 9 mmol/l

Blood glucose ranges for type 1 diabetes (children)

• Before meals: 4 to 8 mmol/l
• 2 hours after meals: under 10 mmol/l

However, those that are able to, may wish to keep blood sugar levels below the NICE after meal targets.

Access to blood glucose test strips
The NICE guidelines suggest that people newly diagnosed with type 2 diabetes should be offered:

• structured education to every person and/or their carer at and around the time of diagnosis, with annual reinforcement and review
• self-monitoring of plasma glucose to a person newly diagnosed with type 2 diabetes only as an integral part of his or her self-management education

Therefore both structured education and self-monitoring of blood glucose should be offered to people with type 2 diabetes. Read more on getting access to blood glucose testing supplies.

You may also be interested to read questions to ask at a diabetic clinic

Note: This post has been edited from Sue/Ken's post to include up to date information.

 

[candiloo]

Get the book Carbs and Cals from Amazon and worry about the carbohydrates you are taking. I was told to have lots of carbs when Iwas first diagnosed, by the diabetic nurse, and this never made any sense to me so I was over the moon ot find I can get away with eating meals with no carbs, not have a hypo because I don't need insulin if I have no carbs. I have felt 100% better and so have a lot of people. There is a calculation to learn according to you dose of background insulin if you take it, but any diabetic nurse worth her salt willbe able to help you what ever type of diabetes you have. Remember every one is different, we all react differently.

 

[Sable_Jan]

Hi psr,
Welcome to the forum.

It is confusing when you are first diagnosed and get conflicting advice and a flurry of posts that may be meaningless to you at this stage.

Your best way is to read this introductory post,
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/basic-information-for-newly-diagnosed-diabetics.26870/
and ask for a meter from your G.P.or buy if you are refused and test your meals. You will soon learn which foods you can or cannot tolerate. It may be that some carbohydrate foods have to be eaten in smaller portions or banned from your diet. You can only guesstimate what is going on without a meter.
You have to find a way forward that you are comfortable with and all the advice that people give you may or may not be relevant. Nobody else can tell you what is right for you, only what is right for them. If only there was a blueprint diet that existed.
Read posts that are helpful to you and use your meter to devise a plan that you can tolerate.
Remember that you are changing your habits and this has to be a new way of eating. Don't look upon it as a diet because you will get fed up with it. Eat what suits your meter and your palate.
Once you get the hang of testing you will find that things become clearer.

Hope this helps,

CC.

I foolishly decided to have the pie at the Carvery tonight instead of the meat - it looked sooooooo good (and it was) but my bg even 3 hours after food was higher than most of my tested meals (I did forget to check before I ate so I didn't get the full picture) but I think it's meat every time from now on... I'm pre-diabetic at the moment and hope to stay that way or improve but I've found that I'd be lost without the meter.

 

[Bob_RD00752]

The extended book Carbs & Cals & Proteins & Fats has data for all 4 categories. I found it very useful, especially when eating out. I think there's an app for those with smartphones too. If your diabetic nurse/doctor can get you on a course, they should explain Diabetes types and nutrition/diet in a logical order with notes you can refer to. Forums by their nature need a bit of trawling through. Good luck. I was diagnosed T2 in Nov 2013 but also as hypothyroid (still unsure whether one caused the other!). Trying to stick to 50 grams of carbs in a meal and cutting out the "usual suspects" helped me to lose 35 pounds in a year (185 down to 150) and get my blood glucose well controlled (now diet & exercise), the thyroid supplement had to be increased slightly though.

 

[Sable_Jan]

The extended book Carbs & Cals & Proteins & Fats has data for all 4 categories. I found it very useful, especially when eating out. I think there's an app for those with smartphones too. If your diabetic nurse/doctor can get you on a course, they should explain Diabetes types and nutrition/diet in a logical order with notes you can refer to. Forums by their nature need a bit of trawling through. Good luck. I was diagnosed T2 in Nov 2013 but also as hypothyroid (still unsure whether one caused the other!). Trying to stick to 50 grams of carbs in a meal and cutting out the "usual suspects" helped me to lose 35 pounds in a year (185 down to 150) and get my blood glucose well controlled (now diet & exercise), the thyroid supplement had to be increased slightly though.

Well done on the weight loss Bob

 

[wizardo]

Well done on the weight loss Bob

To keep it nice and simple. Cut out sugar in tea and coffee and no pop. Cut out all sweets. Eat eggs, fish, meat, bacon, cheese, stir fries and any vegetables that you like. Don't eat carbohydrates bread, rice, noodles, pasta, potatoes, or if you do, small portions. Do eat fruit, especially berries, don't go too mad add some cream or full fat yoghurt. Have a half square of Aldi's 85% cocoa chocolate each night and wash down with a decent amount of red wine or dry white (spirits if you prefer). See, it's not too bad. And you need to take some form of exercise, something pretty vigorous, say five times a week, and that means panting heavily. Make sure the old ticker is ok before starting on this. Let's face it, your body has let you down, now punish it with some vigorous exercise. This has worked for me over the last 12 months and every 3 months my blood sugar level is down. The diabetic nurse has seen very few cases such as mine as people will not stick to their dietary or exercise regimes. Apparently, most would prefer to take tablets. Simple choice really.

 

[Kathleen Mc]

My bil is a t2 diabetic and he mentioned to me that he is different to me (as a type1) cos he just has to watch his sugar intake not his carb intake which I was surprised at (especially considering the biscuits and mince pies he was tucking away over xmas in addition to the platefuls of potatoes and rice!)

 

[Mud Island Dweller]

wizardo l take issue with alcohol cut it out the diet to many carbs. Also the chocolate you had is still high carbs the lindt 90% is better but all sweets should be in moderation.

Kathleen no he has to watch carbs he is in denial eating like that is a death sentence l am guessing he doesnt prick his finger if he did then he would see blood glucose in double figures. He wont cause he has decided a) he was told doesnt need to b)it would mean facing reality.

And the word sugar and carb and carbohydrate are all the same thing.

 

[Geoffrey Knipe]

Confusion abounds in the medical profession. The first thing I was told by my GP when I was first diagnosed with Type 2 in 1995 was I could and should eat lots of fruit, with one exception - grapes (max about 6). Now i get diet sheets aimed at general weight loss without reference to diabetes and stating I can eat, e.g. Sugar Puffs.

 

[AnnieC]

I foolishly decided to have the pie at the Carvery tonight instead of the meat - it looked sooooooo good (and it was) but my bg even 3 hours after food was higher than most of my tested meals (I did forget to check before I ate so I didn't get the full picture) but I think it's meat every time from now on... I'm pre-diabetic at the moment and hope to stay that way or improve but I've found that I'd be lost without the meter.

I am prediabetic and I test twice a day at the moment breakfast and evening meal but I do not take the meter level number as gospel just as a general guide as to what food affects my BG I am pretty good with what I eat most of the time but I do have the occasional naughty treat and it is such a spirit booster

 

[fellcolinj]

When I was diagnosed as diabetic I was given books and papers that were just too much to read. They were confusing and every time I go to a new doctor they bombard you with literature that could as well be in a foreign language.
Nobody actually explains how your body works, what happens to food when you eat it. why the blood needs sugar to feed the brain, etc. etc.
I am now 4 weeks into an 8 week diet which is very severe (Newcastle diet - just low carbohydrate vegetables). When I started I was on insulin (60 per day) with blood glucose readings in the 20's.
I have now stopped the insulin altogether but still take metformin. My morning blood glucose readings are between 4.1 and 6 and in the evening 7.2 to 9.1.
I know I will not be able to carry on with this diet after the 8 week period, because it is really really hard, but hope that a sensible food intake will stop the diabetes returning to the levels they were at 4 weeks ago.

 

[Mud Island Dweller]

Go low carb check the low carb forum out

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[Rimroller]

Hi I have recently been diagnosed as being diabetic, and am finding the information that I am receiving from various different sources very confusing and was hoping that somebody may be able to help me clarify this particular point that is my latest confusion, I saw a dietician at my local doctors soon after I was diagnosed around 3 months ago That told me to take note of the labels on food in particular the amount of sugar that is released from the carbohydrates per 100g ,They gave me a chart that shows what is considered to be Low sugar ( below 5g per 100g / Medium ( between 5 - 15g per 100g ) and high (15g and over)
So I have been focusing on trying to consume foods that fall into the low category and not paying much attention to the actual count of carbohydrates per 100g thinking that if they don't sugar then I don't need to worry about them, However I have now started a 6 week awareness course at a specialist clinic run by the local health authority and have been led to believe that all carbohydrates will turn to sugar making my previous system and advice redundant , This means that I would be better of eating Doritos with 55g or Carbs per 100g than Ryvita with 66g per 100g .So In summary my question becomes ,Is it the total carbs per 100g or just the (of which sugars) that is important ? or is it both

You don't say what your HbA1c reading is. Like you ( & I've had DT2 for 2 years), I get quite confused with some advice that is banded about. Different experts use different terms for the HbA1c level. ie %; mmol/mol; mmol/L:- 7%=53mmol/mol=8mmol/L. I always carry my 'Heart Foundation Traffic Light' label card when shopping. So my advice is 1) Follow the green choices on the food label with the occasional orange table choice. 2) Exercise as much as possible. 3) Drink approx. 2/3 pints of water/day. 4) Make sure at blood test time that you get cholesterol, liver, kidney readings and not just HbA1c value. You must eat a reasonably balanced diet. I have followed this regime for 2 years and do not take any medicine for my DT2.