Can people really be to blame?

[zand]

Yep, I know I said I was leaving. As you can all see, I have had objections to what @Scardoc has been saying in this thread and have voiced them. Scardoc has answered my questions satisfactorily. Everyone has a right to express their own opinions, surely that's what a forum is all about. This thread was started in the 'Soapbox - Have your say' section, so that isn't that at least a hint that it may be controversial?

Whilst I agree with the comments of several of you regarding Scardoc's views, I do not agree that the thread should be closed. We've had a discussion , that's all and the majority of people seem to be 'against' the OP. If the OP wants the thread left open, I really don't see a problem with that. Please don't turn this into a forum where we are not allowed to speak other than to pat each other on the back and say 'Good morning'. What purpose would that serve? We need healthy debates.

Yep leaving again now.

 

[angelicbaby]

You raise an interesting point, I have tremendous sympathy for the generation brought up believing that smoking was good for you and fashionable. In modern times we know the risk involved and tobacco is no longer displayed, has images of what it can do to you on the packet and is extremely expensive. Would you blame someone who smokes 20 a day if they developed lung cancer??

I also agree that blame after the fact is pointless but by confronting the fact that some people are to blame you can open another avenue to tackle the issue, i.e., through education.

Regrettably you appear to be the type of character who ASSUMES a lung cancer patient has smoked 20 a day to create the cancer - there are, I believe just as many patients who have never smoked a day in their life.

Whatever language you choose to use, it is offensive to say someone has brought a condition on themselves - in the case of diabetes there are so many factors involved no one can say what caused it - only that there are certain "triggers" that may have contributed. The majority of newly diagnosed diabetics are over weight, however half the population is overweight. Not all of them will develop diabetes.

 

[Scardoc]

Regrettably you appear to be the type of character who ASSUMES a lung cancer patient has smoked 20 a day to create the cancer - there are, I believe just as many patients who have never smoked a day in their life.

Absolutely not, read my posts properly before assuming to know anything.

Oh, and if my character were petty I would possibly ask a mod to consider this comment as a personal attack, which I believe is not allowed.

 

[tim2000s]

So let's review your points, and more importantly the way that they are put across in order to understand the reaction they are receiving.

1. Your initial question is "Should diverse points of view be encouraged on the forum to encourage discussion?"
2. You believe that a large number of T2 diabetics are largely responsible for their own condition but you accept that other factors could be involved.
3. You believe that overweight/obese people are largely responsible for their own condition but you accept that other factors could be involved.
4. Moderators should be aware of the impact of their words in a forum environment as some observers can and will attribute more weight to them due to position.
5. Your statement was:

I am simply of the belief that there are people to whom blame for their condition, be it T2 or obesity, can fairly be apportioned.

I don't let the T1's off either as I recently posted that the awful statistics on T1's meeting targets is not entirely the fault of the NHS but those who choose not to look after themselves.

Inference can easily be drawn from this that people are responsible for having diabetes, but it would be equally fair to say that you could mean that people are responsible for the consequences of their condition.
6. You mention risk factors of obesity/being overweight. Again, this allows inference that these are causes, rather than correlations, and the very term "risk factor" carries with it a strong inference as to what is meant.
7. You mention that you have "cards to play as well" and that "personal responsibility" is important in reducing the need to respond to the cards. This can again be taken in multiple ways, but given your subsequent posts, I am guessing that you have suffered complications and are having to deal with them.
8. Your comment relating to blame and shame is not directly linked to your statement about weight gain and then latterly loss, and again allows inference that you are discussing your diabetes.
9.

I can't answer your question as I have no desire to "find blame with t2 diabetics". I will reiterate my opinion just once more. I do believe a proportion of people, through their lifestyle choices, are liable to be to blame for their condition. I do not single out T2's, as has been previously stated.

- Again, the use of the words suggest that the condition to which you are referring is diabetes. It could also be the subsequent results of that diabetes, however you have provided a framework to allow the inference.

So you question why people are inferring statements and misunderstanding the point you are making, but it's fairly easy to see why if we minutely comb through and read carefully your comments. Most can be taken in more than one way. As was mentioned earlier, the way in which you have expressed your thoughts and opinions has allowed the discussion to assume that you have a perjorative view on the way that you see diabetics and the reasons for them being diabetic.

The question I find myself asking is whether you are being cleverer than all the participants and asking questions that bring forth personal prejudices in a way that perhaps others haven't spotted?

 

[pavlosn]

Yep, I know I said I was leaving. As you can all see, I have had objections to what @Scardoc has been saying in this thread and have voiced them. Scardoc has answered my questions satisfactorily. Everyone has a right to express their own opinions, surely that's what a forum is all about. This thread was started in the 'Soapbox - Have your say' section, so that isn't that at least a hint that it may be controversial?

Whilst I agree with the comments of several of you regarding Scardoc's views, I do not agree that the thread should be closed. We've had a discussion , that's all and the majority of people seem to be 'against' the OP. If the OP wants the thread left open, I really don't see a problem with that. Please don't turn this into a forum where we are not allowed to speak other than to pat each other on the backs and say 'Good morning'. What purpose would that serve? We need healthy debates.

Yep leaving again now.

For the record my objection to to the thread is in relation to the views of the OP being potentially harmful to more emotionally vulnerable users as well as potentially divisive to the forum as a whole along t1/t2 boundaries.

Although the OP states that he is not targeting t2s specifically, I for one remain unconvinced.

Personally, I do not intend to contribute further to this discussion, beyond this explanation of my earlier post.

 

[Scardoc]

@tim2000s and @pavlosn

Both of your are suggesting that my target here are T2's due to my own personal prejudices. This could not be farther from the truth and I would love to explain the inferences in more detail @tim2000s but time is not going to allow me that luxury.

I will leave you with this though. Many, many comments on a forum can be taken the wrong way or have inferences drawn from them. That is the nature of the beast I'm afraid. However, it is not always the fault of the person making the original point. It is equally the interpretation of the person reading the comments and, in an emotive subject such as this, this can lead to strong views being expressed.

By all means disagree with my opinion and express your own but do not accuse me of prejudice and of targeting people. I could simply dig out a couple of threads where people have posted their own testimonies and said "I was to blame" and say "well, that proves my opinion" but no doubt there would be too small a sample to satisfy you.

 

[noblehead]

No idea what your trying to prove (or disprove for that matter) Scardoc, its Christmas Eve man so leave it be

 

[Robinredbreast]

@tim2000s

Hopefully I can beat the mods if they bow to your request! There is no agenda to my writing style, it is what it is. The internet is always open to misinterpretation as you cannot detect tone in typed words as you can in spoken words.

Believe me, my opinion is very simple and it is being misconstrued by others because it is always very popular to jump on an opinion that may be controversial or not in keeping with the norm.

I sincerely hope this thread is not closed. There are comments on here, targeted at myself, which are, in my view, not fair or backed up sufficiently. I have not aimed anything at any one person individually and merely attempted to justify my opinion. Healthy debate.

[B]Start closing threads from inferences being drawn and you will have a very quiet forum indeed.[/B]

No, no no, since the begining of the festive season lots of members, myself included, have had such a great time on here with various threads, with absolutely fantastic company, back and forth, banter, and it's still going on, so with regard to your final sentence, that is definitely not the case. Threads do get locked, but for a reason and this action is not taken lightly, whatever some people may think

Good day

from a festive RRB

 

[AnnieC]

If poor lifestyle diet and being overweight is the cause of diabetes then what causes it in people like me No family history of T2. I have never been overweight always had a healthy diet didn't have a sweet tooth so never ate much sugar stuff like chocolate biscuits, cakes, puddings or ice cream I have never been big on the starchy carbs and takeaways were very rare yet still I teter on the edge of T2

 

[equipoise]

@pavlosn

Again, I have to take great exception to your comment above.

I am T1.

I can't answer your question as I have no desire to "find blame with t2 diabetics". I will reiterate my opinion just once more. I do believe a proportion of people, through their lifestyle choices, are liable to be to blame for their condition. I do not single out T2's, as has been previously stated.

I firmly believe that it is important this is acknowledged to help improve a vast array of issues in our society.

The final sentence explains it all. We have been here before with you. This is nothing to do with diabetes -- it is all to do with your views about 'society'. There are plenty of other forums for that sort of thing.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

@pavlosn

Again, I have to take great exception to your comment above.

I am T1.

I can't answer your question as I have no desire to "find blame with t2 diabetics". I will reiterate my opinion just once more. I do believe a proportion of people, through their lifestyle choices, are liable to be to blame for their condition. I do not single out T2's, as has been previously stated.

I firmly believe that it is important this is acknowledged to help improve a vast array of issues in our society.

Just because you believe something doesn't mean it's true.

 

[carty]

I am CAROL I have diabetes I lead a very healthy lifestyle I eat lots of healthy food ( not the NHS approved one) I used to window clean with my husband I am as thin as a rake ,my diabetes is type 2 is it my fault? .
CAROL

 

[anna29]

When a debate or discussion transfers or escalates into bickering via
deeply or strongly felt opinions and veiw points .
It loses its tone of respectful varied points that many in an
audience to a thread wish to confer and make .

This thread has come close to this - but as it is the soapbox forum .
There is more flexibility allowed to voice your say , opinions granted .
I have made generous allowance for this within this thread as your senior moderator .

However if you feel there is offence material within posts here.
Please PM me on this .

 

[bluejeans98]

A community is :“a social group sharing common characteristics or interests or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists”.
A forum is: “a meeting place for the discussion of questions of public interest”.

Yes, by definition. this is a diabetic community but first and foremost it is a forum. One of the fundamental points, in my opinion, of a forum is that it’s an area where people can discuss very different points of view. It is from doing this that humans have evolved so wonderfully and that people can learn other points of view and perhaps alter their opinions.

You cannot, again, in my opinion, as a moderator say that you do not want “divisions between the community” because we are not living in North Korea and don’t all have to sport the same haircut. You can ask for respect and the forum does this already and has procedures in place for dealing with anyone who crosses the various lines. However, if someone, like myself, has the opinion that a large number of T2 diabetics are largely responsible for their condition and a larger number of obese people are largely responsible for their condition then I have the right to express that, as I have done many times before, without feeling that I am creating any division. I like to think that when expressing this opinion I always state that I do not believe it is everyone’s fault and that I articulate my opinion well.
Many people over the years have on this very forum expressed the belief that their lifestyle led to developing T2 diabetes and that it empowered them to take control and they have subsequently become healthier than ever. Sometimes, the “blame game” can actually result in positivity and the word “blame” immediately has connotations of nastiness and finger pointing but I think it’s more to do with responsibility. That responsibility comes from many people and centres around the Government, parents and, most importantly, the individual.

I don’t know if many people share my views and are just afraid to say it. This forum, like society in general, seems to be heading the way of popularity contests and damning those who think that, yeah, hang on, maybe it is someone’s fault. Take the example below from bluejeans98 post. Someone who works in the pharma industry looking into cures for diseases. From this I think we can assume that it is a well-educated, intelligent person who probably has a much better understanding than we do. What happens though? He’s an idiot. Ignorant fool. People like him are the problem.
I have said it before and I will repeat it: it is just as dangerous to believe that no one is to blame as it is to tar everyone with the same brush. I am not saying it is acceptable, ever, to point the finger at one individual person as you do not know their personal circumstances. However, as a society, we can’t just say “it’s in the genes” or “It’s insulin resistance” or x, y or z, without also acknowledging that it could be down to personal responsibility.

If the hierarchy of this forum want to create a community without division then what is the point? This forum has, for as long as I’ve been a member, offered tremendous support to people who really need it, education, information and, shall we say, lively debate. As long as people are respectful and keep it above the belt then leave it as open as possible.

Thank you most kindly for calling me an idiot. No 1 I don't work in the pharmacy industry. I only quoted what was said to me when I was talking to a guy who does. I mentioned it on here. As it was the 1 st time I felt truly ashamed to be a diabetic. I also thought this was an open forum to discuss anything to do with being diabetic. Sadly it seems I've been stupid on that front too. Merry Christmas Scardoc.

 

[zand]

Thank you most kindly for calling me an idiot. No 1 I don't work in the pharmacy industry. I only quoted what was said to me when I was talking to a guy who does. I mentioned it on here. As it was the 1st time I felt truly ashamed to be a diabetic. I also thought this was an open forum to discuss anything to do with being diabetic. Sadly it seems I've been stupid on that front too. Merry Christmas Scardoc.

@bluejeans98 Now when I read your post on the original thread, I saw it in a totally different way. I thought what you said was sensible, but I saw the person from the pharmaceutical industry as a typical 'big pharma' employee. I had the thought that he would love to put gym membership into a pill so that he could earn lots of profits from it!

I like your posts, so don't let comments like Scardoc's one put you off from posting, please. I'm sure the majority of people like your posts too. So, no you haven't been stupid at all in my eyes.

Enjoy the rest of the holiday

 

[pavlosn]

Thank you most kindly for calling me an idiot. No 1 I don't work in the pharmacy industry. I only quoted what was said to me when I was talking to a guy who does. I mentioned it on here. As it was the 1 st time I felt truly ashamed to be a diabetic. I also thought this was an open forum to discuss anything to do with being diabetic. Sadly it seems I've been stupid on that front too. Merry Christmas Scardoc.

@bluejeans98

This is an open forum and everyone has a right to express their opinion.

People come face to face with prejudice for a wide variety of reasons, color, race, sexual orientation being but a few of them. The popular image of the stereotypical T2 diabetic is unfortunately just one more prejudice to add to this very long list.

Do not be put off by this.

The truth is that no one knows why individual A goes on to develop diabetes, while individual B, with exactly the same lifestyle does not.

And to be honest once you are diabetic, why you became one is just an academic issue.

What matters is that you do whatever needs to be done to get control over your disease. And you are more likely to do so, if you can maintain a positive self image, away from self doubt and self recriminations. This is why I find the OP's views potentially harmful.

Just about the only part of the OP's argument that I agree with is that people need to take responsibility for their own lives and health. Where I do not agree is that taking responsibility presupposes accepting blame.

I am sure the OP has his motives about his views and agenda. Perhaps he enjoys being controversial or perhaps finding fault and blame in others is part of his own coping mechanism. Or he just genuinely believes the views that he expresses.

We can only speculate.

What is clear is that you have nothing to be embarrassed about and no reason not to go on making valued contributions to this forum.

All the best

Pavlos

 

[zand]

@pavlosn I appreciate that the reason you would have liked this thread to be closed was to protect vulnerable people from even more hurt. My feeling was that this sort of blame for T2 is already widespread and that the OP was the only one adding to it here. He said nothing that the media hasn't said already. I felt this could be seen as a supportive thread because the rest of us were dismissing his views. My opinion on this thread is that if I were reading this as a newly diagnosed T2 I would be helped by the number of us that said that T2's are not to blame for developing diabetes, and encouraged that what they do from now on is the important thing.

So I saw the input from the rest of us as a good thing.

I agree with you about the T1/T2 issue too. Some people put on weight because they over indulge and don't exercise enough. This is easily rectified by cutting down food and increasing exercise. Many T2's put on weight because they are insulin resistant. This is a symptom of pre-diabetes/T2 not the cause. It's true that continuing to eat a lot of carbs will make it worse, create a vicious circle, but many people eat carbs and fat without becoming insulin resistant. It is easy for those people who are unaffected by insulin resistance to become self-righteous about their own weight loss and look down their noses at the rest of us. I know this because I was one of those people until 1992 when I started becoming insulin resistant. Interestingly I regained my pre-pregnancy weight easily, twice. (1986 and 1990). My weight gain began with a bad whiplash injury from a car accident. I didn't develop T2 until 2011, but my weight gradually increased from 8 stones 10 pounds to 18 stones 9 pounds in that time. I tried so hard to lose it during those 19 years, but failed.

 

[pavlosn]

@zand

I expressed the opinion that the moderators should look at this thread and consider if any good could come out of continuing with it.

I even went to the extraordinary measure of flagging my own post simply to bring the matter to their attention.

You disagreed with my opinion and I have no problems with that. I do not expect others to agree with me at all times and on all matters. Nor do I have any illusions of infallibility.

I am also satisfied that the thread has been reviewed by the moderators as a result and in their better judgement the thread should remain open.

I appreciate also that this thread has been posted in the soap box part of the forum, where perhaps most flexibility should be allowed by the moderators in discussing controversial views.

To be honest the views of the OP did not offend or upset me personally. I have been a t2 diabetic for five years now and this kind of accusation is water off a duck's back by now.

Others reading his articulate post though may not have been as immune or emotionally secure. That is why I felt strongly enough to, like you and many others, post repeatedly in response, to try and put forward the opposite argument.

I am now satisfied that our side of the argument is now pretty clear and well laid out in this thread.

Readers are free to draw their own conclusions on the issue.

Pavlos

 

[jack412]

A community is :“a social group sharing common characteristics or interests or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists”.
A forum is: “a meeting place for the discussion of questions of public interest”.

Yes, by definition. this is a diabetic community but first and foremost it is a forum. One of the fundamental points, in my opinion, of a forum is that it’s an area where people can discuss very different points of view. It is from doing this that humans have evolved so wonderfully and that people can learn other points of view and perhaps alter their opinions.

You cannot, again, in my opinion, as a moderator say that you do not want “divisions between the community” because we are not living in North Korea and don’t all have to sport the same haircut. You can ask for respect and the forum does this already and has procedures in place for dealing with anyone who crosses the various lines. However, if someone, like myself, has the opinion that a large number of T2 diabetics are largely responsible for their condition and a larger number of obese people are largely responsible for their condition then I have the right to express that, as I have done many times before, without feeling that I am creating any division. I like to think that when expressing this opinion I always state that I do not believe it is everyone’s fault and that I articulate my opinion well.
Many people over the years have on this very forum expressed the belief that their lifestyle led to developing T2 diabetes and that it empowered them to take control and they have subsequently become healthier than ever. Sometimes, the “blame game” can actually result in positivity and the word “blame” immediately has connotations of nastiness and finger pointing but I think it’s more to do with responsibility. That responsibility comes from many people and centres around the Government, parents and, most importantly, the individual.

I don’t know if many people share my views and are just afraid to say it. This forum, like society in general, seems to be heading the way of popularity contests and damning those who think that, yeah, hang on, maybe it is someone’s fault. Take the example below from bluejeans98 post. Someone who works in the pharma industry looking into cures for diseases. From this I think we can assume that it is a well-educated, intelligent person who probably has a much better understanding than we do. What happens though? He’s an idiot. Ignorant fool. People like him are the problem.
I have said it before and I will repeat it: it is just as dangerous to believe that no one is to blame as it is to tar everyone with the same brush. I am not saying it is acceptable, ever, to point the finger at one individual person as you do not know their personal circumstances. However, as a society, we can’t just say “it’s in the genes” or “It’s insulin resistance” or x, y or z, without also acknowledging that it could be down to personal responsibility.

If the hierarchy of this forum want to create a community without division then what is the point? This forum has, for as long as I’ve been a member, offered tremendous support to people who really need it, education, information and, shall we say, lively debate. As long as people are respectful and keep it above the belt then leave it as open as possible.

watch and comment, when we work this bit out, we can move onto another factor

 

[leeemerick]

Not all type 2's are to blame for their condition due to weight and lifestyle. Weight and lifestyle are contributing factors but not the whole picture. If it was simply these then surely a higher percentage of obese people would have type 2.
A lot of people are overweight these days and are not diabetic.
Whether your type 1 or type 2 your stuck with it. All you can do is manage it to the best of your abilities. Blame is not going to help anyone. Supporting each other is.
Let's all have a big hug and support each other. No one wants to be diabetic!