• Guest - w'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »

Food intake restriction study by Prof. Roy Taylor, et al.

4ratbags said:
It would be great if it was just a weight thing, that would make it so much easier, unfortunately as always its not as simple as it seems.
Click to expand...

Genes play an extremely important role in diabetes. People of indian heritage just need to be a couple of kgs overweight in order to get diabetes. People of european decent, like myself, can be quite heavy and never get diabetes. Singapore, South-korea and Japan, have obesity rates below 3 percent, but a diabetes rate of 10 percent. Britain is much more overweight but with a far lower diabetes percentage.

Sleep, exercise, stress, chemicals, all these things play a role. But by far the most important thing is excess bodyfat of the WRONG kind.

And I think that is important to stress to people, if you get rid of weight your diabetes can go away, not scare them for life that it is chronic.
 
I know of no one else in my family with diabetes. I'm not so knowledgable about the ND yet, but I thought the suggestion there was de-fat your liver would see BS back to nomral...............?
 
TerryinDorset said:
I know of no one else in my family with diabetes. I'm not so knowledgable about the ND yet, but I thought the suggestion there was de-fat your liver would see BS back to nomral...............?
Click to expand...
There are people on here who have dieted their T2 into remission and live a symptom free life. It is a huge achievement and they should be congratulated. But it doesn't work on everyone.

However, it is far too early to make claims about curing T2. Reversal and remission are much better choices of word.

The way I look at it is that there are many diseases and conditions that lie dormant, sometimes for decades. The person can live a wonderfully symptom free life. But the condition is there, and may have always been there, waiting for the right set of circumstances to trigger it. These circumstances may be weight, age, diet, activity levels, medication, genes switching on, or off, pregnancy, stress, or other environmental factors.

And the tricky thing is that these triggers are not necessarily constant.

A fit, active 50 year old with good muscle mass and a daily dog walk may slim their way to remission by dropping 20 lbs or so.

But if their muscle mass drops, with age, and they decide not to get another dog because the walks were too much... Or they drop activity due to hip or knee issues... Suddenly t2 symptoms are back. The triggers that worked a certain way for a 50 yr old have all shifted for an older, less active version of the same body.

In light of this, I consider anyone bandying about the word 'cure' is naive and peddling false hope.

I really, really, want us all to be cured. But until large numbers of t2s have successfully studied and seen to eliminate their diabetes, can eat 'normal carbs' indefinitely, and stay that way for decades, or until they die of a non-D related illness, all they can claim to have achieved is 'reversal' or 'remission.

The idea of skinnifying to reverse T2 is so new. 4-5 years old I think. Far too early to make long term claims. In addition, the original Newcastle Diet did not (in my opinion) sufficient follow ups over time.
 
The ongoing 5 year study headed by Professor Taylor is talking about possible remission rather than cure.

How will it benefit people with diabetes?
If this study shows that a low-calorie diet can be used safely and effectively to bring about and maintain Type 2 diabetes remission for significant periods of time, it will inform and optimise future research and practice and could completely change the way this condition is viewed.

A practical and effective approach that uses a low-calorie diet to bring about and maintain Type 2 diabetes remission could lead to significant changes in the way that Type 2 diabetes is managed by the NHS. It could also provide an accessible way to help people with this condition live for longer, with an improved quality of life and a reduced risk of serious health complications, without the need for invasive weight loss surgery.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Researc...t/Research-spotlight-low-calorie-liquid-diet/
 
Daibell said:
I have reservations about Prof Taylor's ND.
Click to expand...

I was recently on an X-PERT course (which I'd recommend for anyone newly diagnosed) and the person running this talked in a very balanced way about it. She could quote the research that showed it worked for some people but others found it unsustainable, even to get through. Longer term, some people manage to maintain the good effects while others don't. And there's probably no way you're going to be able to predict if you'll be one that it will work for short-term plus long-term. But that's true for much in life, isn't it? You've got nothing to lose by trying it, have you?
 
Roytaylorjasonfunglover said:
Its depends how you define diabetes. In order to have diabetes you need the genes for it, some people can be whatever weight, do all sorts of unhealthy things, and still not get diabetes.

But if you have the genes, excess weight will give you diabetes,and how much weight that is needed to unleash this, varies so much.

When you have diabetes, you are causing yourselfes all the complications and just controlling for bloodsugar does not cut it, the definition of a "cure" is that you are able to eat at least 50 percent carbs each day, with normal glucose readings.

And again diabetes is about excess weight.

Say somebody weighed 150 kg at a height of 188cm, when they got diagnosed. they lose weight down to 100 kg and then they are able to process carbs like a non diabetic by all the golden standards. If they keep that weight hey will not get complications, and they do not have diabetes in a technical sense, they just have the potential for getting it again. Maybe the limit is at 140 kg? or 135 kg?

As long as you keep yourselves under your personal fat threshold for diabetes, you will not develop diabetes, go over it and you become diabetic.

Diabetes is a fluid state determined by your genes and weight.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I appear a bit stupid but I don't understand this. I know there are people on here with T2 who are slim, and were slim when they were diagnosed. So, although there is the common link with obesity, where do they fit into your thinking?
 
Just to back up ladybirds point I am under weight I was very fit and had a sensible diet I have never in my life been overweight or eaten junk but I have diabetes type 2
CAROL
 
catherinecherub said:
The ongoing 5 year study headed by Professor Taylor is talking about possible remission rather than cure.

How will it benefit people with diabetes?
If this study shows that a low-calorie diet can be used safely and effectively to bring about and maintain Type 2 diabetes remission for significant periods of time, it will inform and optimise future research and practice and could completely change the way this condition is viewed.

A practical and effective approach that uses a low-calorie diet to bring about and maintain Type 2 diabetes remission could lead to significant changes in the way that Type 2 diabetes is managed by the NHS. It could also provide an accessible way to help people with this condition live for longer, with an improved quality of life and a reduced risk of serious health complications, without the need for invasive weight loss surgery.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Researc...t/Research-spotlight-low-calorie-liquid-diet/
Click to expand...
Roy Taylor is a researcher that needs to be very careful about his language, he does not have data for a whole lifetime, therefore he cannot be to outspoken or certain.. But his whole hypothesis is that if people were able to maintain their personal "ideal weight", they will never get diabetes. So if Roy Taylor had a cohort of 100 people with diabetes, who then managed to return to their ideal weight, and STAY there for the rest of their life, they would not get diabetes in his mind. The only thing that would disprove his theory, would be if many of those people still got type 2 diabetes, despite maintaing their ideal weight, for the rest of their life. The cause of diabetes type 2 would then be something else, not excess bodyfat, like eating too many carbs or never getting enough sleep.



Mind you, I think in the future we will see more subtypes of type 2, but most people have the one which is brought forward by excess bodyfat of the wrong kind, which their genetics are not able to cope with. Consider this, 80 percent of diabetics are obese, but only 10 % of all obese get diabetes. that is an astonishing fact in my opinion that do show the power of genes.
 
ladybird64 said:
Sorry if I appear a bit stupid but I don't understand this. I know there are people on here with T2 who are slim, and were slim when they were diagnosed. So, although there is the common link with obesity, where do they fit into your thinking?
Click to expand...

Most people use bmi when talking about weight and diabetes, but this is misleading, the important thing is bodyfat, and bodyfat, can be divided into several categories, but the most dangerous one is is visceral fat, and subcutaneous is the good healthy fat.

So you can still be defined as having a healthy bmi, and still have a very high bodyfat. My favourite example is this indian diabetes professor. All his patients underwent a bodyfatscan, and himself and his colleague did this, and here were the results. http://img.medscape.com/slide/migrated/editorial/cmecircle/2005/4915/images/yusuf/slide016.gif

Despite having the exact same bmi 22-23, the one to the left has 9.1% percent body and the one to the right, the indian professor has a bodyfat of 21 %, double the amount!

here is an newyork times article showing the mismatch between bodyfat and bmi

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...n-is-bmi-misleading?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Takeway figures :12 % of overweight men had less than 25% bodyfat, 6% of men had a normal or underweight bmi but more than 25% bodyfat!

Women, 3% of woman had under 35% despite being overweight, and 15% of women where of underweight or normal bmi, but had more than 35 % bodyfat.

These are quite staggering figures in my mind.

http://i2.nyt.com/images/2015/08/28/science/bodyfat-bmi/bodyfat-bmi-jumbo-v2.png


This professor has devoted his life to understanding why indians get diabetes at a lower bmi than us westerners.

Two lectures by him.



Look at these strikening differences in visceral fat between people with type 2 diabetes and non-diabetics. The diabetics has much more white fat than the nondiabetics.

http://www.hivehealthmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/visceral-fat.jpg

Liposuction removes the subcutaneous fat, not the visceral fat, some of the goody fat is gone but the dangerous remains.

http://img.medscape.com/slide/migrated/editorial/cmecircle/2005/4005/images/sharma/slide015.gif

And here are the results http://img.medscape.com/slide/migrated/editorial/cmecircle/2005/4005/images/sharma/slide016.gif

No difference.

Example of two boys with same bodyfat, the one with more visceral has prediabetes

http://img.medscape.com/slide/migrated/editorial/cmecircle/2005/4005/images/sharma/slide010.gif

Luckily when you lose fat, it is the visceral fat that is the first go , but people differ even here on how much of they lose:

http://drrajivdesaimd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/visceral-fat-1.jpg
this guy lost over 13% of bodyweight, but over 34% of visceral fat! That was more than 3 litres of visceral fat

http://img.medscape.com/slide/migrated/editorial/cmecircle/2005/4005/images/sharma/slide026.gif
Here a 10% weightloss resultet in 30% reduction visceral fat

And this fat is not necessarily seen by looking at people, here is a striking example:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...onal_Image_of_a_TOFI_and_a_Normal_Control.jpg

Same bmi,gender,age and bodyfat, the control has 1.6 litres of itnernal fat, the unhealthy one has nearly 6litres!, a factor of over 3 in difference!

Another example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:..._in_men_with_the_same_waist_circumference.jpg

Same waistsize, of six people, the one with least has 0.5 litres of internal fat, the one with most 4,3 litres.

Michael Mosley is also an fine example, in his fasting documentary on bbc it is shown that he has nearly 30 percent bodyfat, but only slightly overweight in bmi. When he lost his fat, all of his sugars improved, his father died of diabetic complications!

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure

This is a very skinny journalist from the guardian that got diagnosed with diabetes type 2. He lost over 10 kgs, and his diabetes disappeared, he used to keep a blog and he was undiabetic as of 2015 september, and got rid of his diagnosis in 2012. You could also email and ask him.

So in short, genetics do matter, your bmi may be normal but you can carry loads of "wrong fat" and get diabetes despite having a normal bmi.

My own family story shows this. I have myself been over 40 kg heavier than now, but my sugars were perfect. I got myself tested at the doctors because of worry about it. My mother has bmi of over 40, but she does not have diabetes, I make her check her sugars regarly because of my worry. My aunt is also very obese, not as much as my mother, but she got diabetes. her bmi is maybe 35, my mothers 40, and my mother is the more "healthy" one. My dad is 174 cm, and used to weigh 95 kg, he is now 69kg. He is a proffesor of medicine, but has never had any bad sugars. My dads new wife however, is a nurse, and looks very skinny, her father is as well, but they both got diabetes. My guess is that they have loads of visceral fat and if they lost 5 kgs each they would be cured.

Ask any more questions if you are wondering about something.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
carty said:
Just to back up ladybirds point I am under weight I was very fit and had a sensible diet I have never in my life been overweight or eaten junk but I have diabetes type 2
CAROL
Click to expand...
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure

Your story is exactly like his. at 170cm and a weight of 66.3 kg and a healthy lifestyle he was diagnosed with diabetes.

But when he went on the newcastle diet, in order to lose weight, he went from a bmi of 22.84 to 19.38. This was accomplished by a weightloss of about 10 kgs. He lost about 4 kgs in 11 days on the diet, and lost 6 kgs before embarking on the diet.

This man for me, like you is an example of somebody who has lived healthily, but still got diabetes because they were unlucky with the genes. But he managed to "cure" himself by losing enough weight, by going below his personal fat threshold, his limit of bodyfat for what the body can cope with before it develops diabetes. IF he ever went up to bmi of lets say 24, stilll below overweight, he would get diabetes again. But if he manages to keep himself around the range he is now, he will be cured technically.

So life is not fair, but one can do something about it.
 
But if you are 'cured' then that means to a lot of people that it is gone for good so while I can see some sense in what you are saying it is the word 'cure' that annoys me.
 
On obestity, from one of the recent news items:
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2015...le-will-develop-type-2-diabetes-93740193.html

'Although many cases of type 2 diabetes are linked to obesity, it is not the only possible cause. Genetics, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and the natural aging process can also cause type 2 diabetes. In fact, a recent study found that the development of age-related type 2 diabetes is so different to the development of obesity-related type 2 diabetes that the two should be considered different conditions, with age-related type 2 diabetes described as "type 4 diabetes."'

There's an amazing load of stuff on the news feed!
 
JenniferW said:
On obestity, from one of the recent news items:
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2015...le-will-develop-type-2-diabetes-93740193.html

'Although many cases of type 2 diabetes are linked to obesity, it is not the only possible cause. Genetics, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and the natural aging process can also cause type 2 diabetes. In fact, a recent study found that the development of age-related type 2 diabetes is so different to the development of obesity-related type 2 diabetes that the two should be considered different conditions, with age-related type 2 diabetes described as "type 4 diabetes."'

There's an amazing load of stuff on the news feed!
Click to expand...

Oh @JenniferW i could kiss you!

That single article (and the type4 link contained within it) has explained all the diabetes in my family for the past 3 generations. It fits. Perfectly.
Plus, i have PCOS, (and inflammation!) which will explain why mine hit 20 years earlier than other family members, but follows their pattern.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! It has filled in the gaps that this forum never has.
 
carty said:
Just to back up ladybirds point I am under weight I was very fit and had a sensible diet I have never in my life been overweight or eaten junk but I have diabetes type 2
CAROL
Click to expand...
One thing that can complicate the picture is that sometimes people with rarer forms of diabetes are mis-labelled as Type 2 because they don't fit the picture of Type 1. The fat hypothesis doesn't apply to other types of diabetes such as monogenic diabetes. It is possible that even within Type 2 there are different sub-groups with different characteristics.
 
Dark Horse said:
One thing that can complicate the picture is that sometimes people with rarer forms of diabetes are mis-labelled as Type 2 because they don't fit the picture of Type 1. The fat hypothesis doesn't apply to other types of diabetes such as monogenic diabetes. It is possible that even within Type 2 there are different sub-groups with different characteristics.
Click to expand...
Totally agree, I think we will found more and more subgroups of type 2, but most people have the one which is caused by obesity. and some thin people can have it because of extra bodyfat despite low bmi, and some obese people and thin people have it because of those rarer forms of type 2. And those have it hardest in my opnion.
 
JenniferW said:
On obestity, from one of the recent news items:
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2015...le-will-develop-type-2-diabetes-93740193.html

'Although many cases of type 2 diabetes are linked to obesity, it is not the only possible cause. Genetics, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and the natural aging process can also cause type 2 diabetes. In fact, a recent study found that the development of age-related type 2 diabetes is so different to the development of obesity-related type 2 diabetes that the two should be considered different conditions, with age-related type 2 diabetes described as "type 4 diabetes."'

There's an amazing load of stuff on the news feed!
Click to expand...

PCOS is something I do not know to much, but here is an interesting story by a patient of doctor Jason Fung, she lost some weight and huge improvement followed. This condition seems very genetic, but also triggered by excess weight. again with diabetes, you have some patients who are fairly lean, but with high bodyfat, and you also have those that are really skinny with the disease, the most unfortunate ones. So with diabetes and PCOS it seems like a chicken and egg syndrome, what came first? Weightloss is very benefical anyhow.

Aging and diabetes. Most people tend to put on some weight while they get older, and insulin resistance also increases as we ages naturally. If everybody was at a perfect weight, this would be no problem, but age is like smoking, stress, poor physical acitvity, drugs, genetics, and chemcials, all part of those things that pushes you over the edge into diabetes, especially when yu have excess bodyfat of the wrong kind.

Staffan Lindberg is a GP from sweden. He wrote a famous study where he examined a people from Papa Ny Guinea. None of them had diabetes, all had perfect bloodsugars, and so forth. The interesting thing was this. As people aged their insulin resistance increased slightly, but also since everyone maintained a healthy bmi into old age, it did not matter. We do not follow the same pattern with respect to age and bmi.

Here is a 30 min talk showcasing his findings, very interesting. Aslo kitavans ate over 60 percent carb, with no fibre. I am a lowcarb fan and I not belive saturated fat to be unhealthy or cause cancer, but I do believe we where meant to eat large amounts of carbs, and his study convinced me of this. check it out.


 
carty said:
My BMI is18 if I lost 2 stone. I would be 4 1/2 stone I would probably be dead !
CAROL
Click to expand...
I do not wish death upon anyone, especially all the nice goodnatured ,quality people I have found upon this forum, I just found his story interesting regarding diabetes and bmi. And I agree, 18 is probably too low for most people, and everybody knows their limit and what is best for themselves, my point is just that bmi is a very individual thing, and you should not just look blindly upon the numbers, but think about how you feel and stuff. at a bmi og 20.65 I have very litte extra bodyfat and I see my sixpack and stuff, and will never go down in weight now, but for some a bmi of 20.6 is to much, and people should just think over it as you have, and reach a fitting conclusion for themselves
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks for all those recent links Roytaylorj---. I couldn't get 1 or 2 don't work but all the others make up for them. I will just say that all want to do is push my diagnosis into 'remission' by using the ND. Curing T2 is far in the future. I am impressed, however, with the quality of input on this forum & thank everyone for doing so.

This talk of subcutaneous & visceral fat, BMI, etc but thin people still get T2, reminds me of my first job as a qualified nurse on Intensive/Coronary Care in 1976. My first post-coronary patient looked like a marathon runner & this brought home to me how different we all are when coping with changes in our lives.......I'm glad I found this forum.
 
Back
Top