160g a day : the xyzzy/Grazer hypothesis

[borofergie]

Right so here's what I don't quite get. If you eat a higher than 160g diet why does why does Metformin which suppresses gluconeogenesis work as a diabetic drug? Or is it that Metformin is only effective against the non carb bits of what you eat? Probably a stupid question with an obvious answer

No, think it's a great question! The article does suggest that metformin works by suppressing neogenesis. SO, first, does gluconeogenesis only occur when a person low carbs and the body needs an alternative source of energy? If so, as you suggest I think, Metformin wouldn't work (other than in it's second role of improving insulin sensitivity) UNLESS the person was low carbing. If, however, gluconeogenesis works with people on a normal high carb diet, then Metformin would still work on that part of the glucose producing process and would explain it's limited effect on BGs. Would also explain the insulin level issue we discussed on another thread where cheese etc was producing a large'ish insulin response as this would come from neogenesis despite igh carb eating.

As I said above, GNG happens constantly in everyone - 30 to 70% of your energy supplies come from it when you wake up in the morning. If you eat more protein than your body needs for rebuilding and maintaining tissue, then any excess is converted into glucose (about 58%) or ketones (about 46%). Also a small amount of glucose is reconstructed from the breakdown of triglycerides into free-fatty-acids (about 10% of the total energy).

GNG happens whether you eat enough protein or not. If your body needs glucose and there is not enough protein available in your diet, it will start to canabalize muscle. This means all of us walk a tightrope between producing extra glucose or losing extra muscle mass. That window is between 15 to 18% of calories as protein.

Paul Jaminet says that you should eat at least 600kcals a day of carbs and protein combined (150g) to make sure that you are producing enough glucose to fuel your system.

If your BG is high, and you are eating an excess of protein, I can see how metformin could help by inhibiting GNG, and reducing an extra source of glucose in your blood.

 

[hanadr]

I've been low carb for several years, but in the last one or so, i've been able to get away with a carby meal once in a while and still keep to my fastings of under 5. So I think there may be something in the theory.
Hana

 

[SweetHeart]

I wonder where I stand in this theory as a bod with an underactive thyroid?

I'm on less than 50g carbs per day - most days it's nearer 30g - and I have plateau'ed out. I haven't lost weight according to two sets of scales for a fortnight although, having said that, my clothes are still getting looser and my Ketostix are deepest burgundy. Does being non-diabetic affect it? I shouldn't have thought it would.

Ju

PS I think I've found an explanation for my stupidity - not enough calories to stimulate joined up thinking...... :wink:

 

[borofergie]

I'm on less than 50g carbs per day - most days it's nearer 30g - and I have plateau'ed out. I haven't lost weight according to two sets of scales for a fortnight although, having said that, my clothes are still getting looser and my Ketostix are deepest burgundy. Does being non-diabetic affect it? I shouldn't have thought it would.

Blurgh. If your clothes are getting looser then you are loosing weight. That's a much better indication than anything the scales say.

On less than 30g a day you're deep in ketosis. Instead of requiring 120g a day of carbohydrate, your brain only needs around 30g, and gets the rest of its energy from ketones. Your muscles have become better at burning fat, and so use less glycogen when you exercise. Most of the 30g that you eat will go to fuelling your brain, any extra glucose will come from Gluconeogenesis.

Basically you've emptied your bucket, and made the hole smaller.

 

[jopar]

Can I ask..

If removing starchy carbs...

What is the typical amount/weights of what food per meal/day of food being eaten?

So we have some context to what being eaten etc..

 

[Anonymous]

Here is my tea tonight Jopar.

Onions - Raw, 0.33 medium (2-1/2" dia) 15 4 0 1 2
Asda - Beef Mince, 150 g 428 2 38 0 0
Aldi - Cucina Passata, 82.5 g 19 3 0 1 3
Morrisons - Closed Cup Mushrooms, 100 g 13 0 1 0 0
1 pack Bare naked Noodles 35 4 0 9 0

13 grams of carbs and 507 calories for my main meal. I hope that helps.

 

[borofergie]

after 3 d on a hypoenergetic low-CHO diet to deplete glycogen stores, a very large amount (740 g) of dietary CHO (with 60 g fat and 100 g protein), consumed during the 4th day by healthy young human subjects, induced an increase of 340 g in the glycogen store, without initiating de novo lipid synthesis at rates exceeding concomitant fat oxidation

ie some new fat was formed but the same amount was also burned, so no gain of new fat.
However, these were young fit men.
We haven't considered the fate of fats/proteins and the interaction of the different nutrients and the effect of insulin deficieny or resistance.
Complicated :lol:

Of course, these are excellent points as ever from Phoenix (I need to read the links that you sent me in more details).

I agree completely, that if a person's carb intake is so excessive that de novo lipogenesis occurs, it doesn't mean that the fat will necessarily be stored as body fat. There is a good chance that it will simpy be burned for energy like any other dietary fat.

However, this goes a long way to explaining why people on a high-carb/low-fat diet usually have higher blood triglycerides than people on a low-carb diet, despite the fact that the latter consume much more fat. It's worth noting for those who are afraid of saturated fats that the fat created during lipogenesis is a saturated fat (palmitic acid).

It also begs the question that, if your body can only cope with a maximum of 160g of carb a day, and ends up converting any extra into fat, then why not simply eat the fat in the first place (instead of the carbohydrate)?

There are no good glucose disposal pathways: It is much better to eat fat, than carbohydrates that get converted into fat

Of the three pathways that the body uses to deal with excess glucose, de novo lipogenesis is probably the best. We all know about the deleterious effects of hyperglycemia. The third pathway "Direct Metabolism of Glucose in Cells that Don't Normally Burn Fat", is one of the factors that causes diabetes and cancer. Basically non-glucose burning cells are forced by excess insulin to burn glucose, damaging the cell, and switching it to metabolic pathways characteristic of cancer and diabetes.

 

[IanD]

Re: The Dangers of Wheat

The Hounslow dietitian (who gave me the high starchy carb advice in 2,000) now recommends 130 g carb daily rather the DUK's 300 + g.

Well Ian either you have acheived the nigh impossible (changing the mind of an NHS dietician :wink: ) or there's some retraining in low carb going on which as I mentioned the other week is known to be occurring in my PCT. Did they say if it was an officail thing or just that you had finally changed their opinion?

Either way more progress :clap:

I emailed her & she invited me on the XPERT course - to show the others (all newly diagnosed) that good control could be achieved. Then she invited me back for the follow-up (1 day) course.

I've still got some homework to do on the XPERT booklet to point out the errors where they misleadingly compare low & high fat diets. The high diet was 4000 kcals & included lots of pastry.

 

[ladybird64]

Can I have the LadyBird version of this process please?

I see that my reputation precedes me Lucy. :lol:

 

[RoyG]

So at what point does your body stop burning fat and starts to scavenge from muscle? I average 30 to 60g of carbs per day, and losing weight slowly, I thought it would have been a more profound decrease in body fat at that low intake, or after only 3 weeks is my body still adjusting to its massive reduced carb intake.

 

[borofergie]

So at what point does your body stop burning fat and starts to scavenge from muscle? I average 30 to 60g of carbs per day, and losing weight slowly, I thought it would have been a more profound decrease in body fat at that low intake, or after only 3 weeks is my body still adjusting to its massive reduced carb intake.

It's only going to start breaking-down muscle if you don't eat enough protein. I don't think that's likely to be a problem on a low-carb diet or any other diet apart from perhaps a very low calorie shake diet or a vegan diet. Most people get enough protein, and there is some evidence that suggests that your appetite is governed by the need to get exactly enough protein.

At <50g a day you're definitely well into the fat burning mode, instead of being fuelled entirely by glucose, your brain is now burning ketones too (plus some glucose from gluconeogenesis).

Give it a chance. Don't trust the scales, they are a very poor indicator of fat loss.

 

[RoyG]

Right so I am into Ketosis I was beginning to wonder, I have just started to have a shake for my lunch, maximuscle promax whey powder
Per 1 serving 30g (1 scoop) too 200ml water.
Energy 120Kcal/497 kJ
Protein (on dry matter) 23g*
Carbohydrate 2.04g
Fats 2.07g
What effect do you think that will have.

 

[SweetHeart]

Roy, if you want to be sure you're into Ketosis you can buy some Ketostix from your Chemist or, even cheaper, from Ebay. Although, having said that, MH must be into Ketosis but he never gets a Ketostix to change colour. Hmm.....wonder if they might now that he's not on the Met?

Ju

 

[borofergie]

Right so I am into Ketosis I was beginning to wonder, I have just started to have a shake for my lunch, maximuscle promax whey powder
Per 1 serving 30g (1 scoop) too 200ml water.
Energy 120Kcal/497 kJ
Protein (on dry matter) 23g*
Carbohydrate 2.04g
Fats 2.07g
What effect do you think that will have.

I don't know, it's OK for a single meal, but the purpose of eating is fuel, and you need to get most of your fuel from fat and not from protein. I'd rather use my protein allowance on a nice juicy steak or something, rather than a shake.

 

[RoyG]

Yes It was my purpose to supplement my lunch with it on a couple of days in week, I would love a nice juicy steak but I don't have the facility's in a site office, and the shake is faster to do at 5.30am dashing out to work sometimes. but from what you seem to be saying the odd meal is fine and has no detrimental effects.

 

[RoyG]

Roy, if you want to be sure you're into Ketosis you can buy some Ketostix from your Chemist or, even cheaper, from Ebay. Although, having said that, MH must be into Ketosis but he never gets a Ketostix to change colour. Hmm.....wonder if they might now that he's not on the Met?

Ju

I could be in same boat just got some Ketostix and I don't know if it was normal or just edging towards 0.5 with my BS at 5.5 last reading 2pm. So what is that telling me I,m not into Ketosis on 50-60g of carbs a day???

 

[borofergie]

Roy, if you want to be sure you're into Ketosis you can buy some Ketostix from your Chemist or, even cheaper, from Ebay. Although, having said that, MH must be into Ketosis but he never gets a Ketostix to change colour. Hmm.....wonder if they might now that he's not on the Met?

Ju

I could be in same boat just got some Ketostix and I don't know if it was normal or just edging towards 0.5 with my BS at 5.5 last reading 2pm. So what is that telling me I,m not into Ketosis on 50-60g of carbs a day???

You probably need to be eating less than 30g to change the colour on ketostix...

Don't worry too much, it's a poor indicator of ketosis.

 

[Type1Jim]

Hi,

I try and stick to 150 grams a day of carb and make the rest of my calorie intake up with protein and good fats. I exercise a lot and always get told by my DSN and dietician to have up to approx 450 grams of carb a day.

On 150g I have had no problem running marathons and competing professionally in other sports. I do find that need to eat early before exercise to let the insulin finish working (4-5hrs).

 

[Scardoc]

Hi,

I try and stick to 150 grams a day of carb and make the rest of my calorie intake up with protein and good fats. I exercise a lot and always get told by my DSN and dietician to have up to approx 450 grams of carb a day.

On 150g I have had no problem running marathons and competing professionally in other sports. I do find that need to eat early before exercise to let the insulin finish working (4-5hrs).

Jim, how do you fuel yourself during the exercise?