***?!?

[cugila]

You may not agree with Diabetes U.K. diet advice but has anyone on here who keeps moaning about them looked at their research projects? They have recently started a three year study to see if low carb diets can sustain weight loss for Type 2's in conjunction with Exeter Hospital.

hi Vicky.

As a matter of fact Vicky I have looked at the studies. The one you are talking about apparently ended in March 2009.
Have they started another one I am not aware of ?
My e-mail to DUK asking for sight of it's conclusions and when they were going to be published has not had any response.
Perhaps if DUK would take note of valid opinion and sound science we might not "moan about them so much" as you say. I call it criticism.

As with most things I won't hold my breath. :twisted:

 

[cugila]

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-diabetes/Food_and_recipes/Recipes/Cheese_apple_and_walnut_bread/

I swear to GOD. DUK wants us to kill ourselves. :x :x :x :x :x

We've got no chance. I could cry for the dewly diagnosed people that go there for advice.

Folks.

This the reply I had back regarding this recipe. I'll leave it here with no comment.


Thank you for your feedback regarding the recipe for Cheese, apple and walnut bread.

In response, we would say that all food can be included as part of a healthy balanced diet. There is no food that is 'banned' for people with diabetes and there is nothing wrong with having this type of bread once in a while. Also, the cheese, apple and walnut added to the bread is likely to lower the glycaemic index - which means it will be digested and absorbed slowly by the body and will therefore affect blood glucose levels slowly too. If you would like to make this recipe and are concerned you could opt for a smaller serving too.

Many thanks

Kind regards,

Care Advisor
Healthcare and Policy team
Diabetes UK

 

[tubolard]

In response, we would say that all food can be included as part of a healthy balanced diet. There is no food that is 'banned' for people with diabetes and there is nothing wrong with having this type of bread once in a while. Also, the cheese, apple and walnut added to the bread is likely to lower the glycaemic index - which means it will be digested and absorbed slowly by the body and will therefore affect blood glucose levels slowly too. If you would like to make this recipe and are concerned you could opt for a smaller serving too.

Many thanks

Kind regards,

Care Advisor
Healthcare and Policy team
Diabetes UK

I think that's a sensible response. The fat in the oil and cheese will lower the GI, the fibre in the apple and walnuts and wholemeal flour will also lower the GI, I suspect that if you used only wholemeal flour that would be even better from a GI perspective.

They did miss out one vital choice though, DUK have made us aware of the carbohydrate content, we can see from the types of carbs included in the recipe whether we'd want to eat it, we could always choose NOT to eat it :shock: just something I thought I'd throw into the melting pot.

Regards, Tubs.

 

[amycakes]

Sorry if I am asking a stupid question but am a newbie.
Can someone explain to me what is SO wrong with the bread?
Confused!
Amy

 

[graham64]

Sorry if I am asking a stupid question but am a newbie.
Can someone explain to me what is SO wrong with the bread?
Confused!
Amy

Hi Amy,
The problem to me as a T2 is the carb content 34g per serving this would send my BG soaring.


Regards Graham

 

[amycakes]

ah ok so u cant use insulin to lower it.
im t1 so didnt get tht!

 

[EricD]

Couldn't sleep so I thought I'd "educate" myself a little and what do I find? Yet another thread with "low carbers" are "right" and others are wrong, "thick" and "malicious" but of course the name calling is "reserved" for only those who suggest and not those who follow. :roll:

And of course there's the "conspiracy theory" as well.

I swear to GOD. DUK wants us to kill ourselves. :x :x :x :x :x

Give them the benefit of the doubt though guys. Maybe they're just a bit thick rather than malicious?
Either way they're keen to make sure their constituency gets bigger, not smaller.

Just wondering what else they would put in the packed lunch, slice of chocolate gateau :?:

Why don't you people take your own advice you give others? You are not forced to follow the diet they suggest. No one is forcing it down your throats. Just be happy for those of us who are able to eat that kind of food instead of whinging and whining and calling us all sorts of names.

Or is it pure jelousy that makes some of you the way you are? It sure sounds like it most of the time. :roll:

 

[cugila]

Morning EricD.

Burning the midnight oil I see ?

I was curious about you, took a look at your posts since you joined back on 20th Feb 2009. Started off all sweetness and light, eager to learn. Then somewhere along the line you became a vehement advocate against Low Carbs. Bit like the people you decry on here with opposing views.

Where did that Eric go ? What changed you ? Why are you so anti something that may help people to control their Diabetes ? As we say, "One size doesn't fit all."

Here's one of your earlier posts:

was only dianosed abour 3 weeks ago so don't know much yet but have found some videos on youtube in my research to learn more, they may answer some of your questions.

Regards

Eric
Think I now know where you are going wrong Eric, YouTube - Research ? You are joking ? Good for jokey stuff and video's etc but research - I don't think so. Do some Scientific Research Eric, it may just save your life.

BTW, you asked elsewhere " Why is my Cholesterol level so good ? " 3.5. Yes it is good and the rest of your numbers stack up well too. So we must assume that your Diet is good ? Maybe not as good as you think.
Your BMI is in the Obese category, 32+. Not an attack, an observation. Mine too is in the same category. However, mine was 40 before I started to reduce the Carbs in my Diet - it's now down to 33, not far behind you Eric. All in two months. I have to be careful of fat consumption as well, I have had Cardiac problems for many years.
Mainly because of the conflicting Scientific evidence regarding the consumption of Fats, I'm not convinced so far that there is anything which could be termed conclusive ? Fats, Good OR Bad, I'm not sure, so the Jury is out on that one at the moment.

My Cholesterol level is 3.2 at present. Why is it so good Eric ?
My HbA1c has gone from 8.3% in January 2009 to 6.7% a few days ago. Why is that Eric ?
My Weight has gone from 124.5 Kilos in January 2009 to 111 Kilos a few days ago. Why is that Eric ?

Food for thought ?

 

[IanD]

Couldn't sleep so I thought I'd "educate" myself a little and what do I find? Yet another thread with "low carbers" are "right" and others are wrong, "thick" and "malicious" but of course the name calling is "reserved" for only those who suggest and not those who follow. :roll:

And of course there's the "conspiracy theory" as well.

Why don't you people take your own advice you give others? You are not forced to follow the diet they suggest. No one is forcing it down your throats. Just be happy for those of us who are able to eat that kind of food instead of whinging and whining and calling us all sorts of names.

Or is it pure jelousy that makes some of you the way you are? It sure sounds like it most of the time. :roll:

Are reduced carbers "malicious?"

In my case, I followed the NHS/DUK advice, for 8 years, & I had an education session at the hospital which advised a low fat/sugar/salt diet based on complex (med GI) carbs. I was also frightened & in a state of shock at diagnosis when they told me how the disease would progress. I understood I had the disease that would bring about my death.

My Dr approved what I was doing, prescribed MF after 4 years. HBA at diagnosis was 11 & dropped quickly to 8 when diagnosis was confirmed (I gave up sugar as soon as diabetes was suspected.) It never dropped below 6. I lead an active life, & get my exercise playing tennis at club standard.

Then the complications started - beginning of diabetic retinopathy, & crippling muscle pain. Then I found this web site. Reduced carbing has cleared the muscle pain, though I hesitate to claim a "cure."

The reason for the "reduced carb" campaign, against the standard NHS/DUK diet advice is thus that many of us have found by experience that the predicted onset of complications can be reversed/controlled/eased by a reduced carb diet.

We therefore believe that the official advice we have lived by for years is in fact flawed. Only by listening to dietary advice from Fergus & others am I physically active again. We want others to benefit from our experience, so that the onset of complications is as far into the future as possible.

 

[Trinkwasser]

Go to their website and you can see all of the studies and what they are costing.

While you're there don't forget to see who are their corporate sponsors. Then do the same for the ADA, American Heart Association, etc. etc. can you spot any similarities?

So long as the research is paid for by drug companies and carbohydrate peddlers, useful stuff like this

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cg ... /53/9/2375

will be hidden away in corners when they should be front page news

 

[Patch]

Couldn't sleep so I thought I'd "educate" myself a little and what do I find? Yet another thread with "low carbers" are "right" and others are wrong, "thick" and "malicious" but of course the name calling is "reserved" for only those who suggest and not those who follow.

And of course there's the "conspiracy theory" as well.

I swear to GOD. DUK wants us to kill ourselves.

Give them the benefit of the doubt though guys. Maybe they're just a bit thick rather than malicious?
Either way they're keen to make sure their constituency gets bigger, not smaller.

Just wondering what else they would put in the packed lunch, slice of chocolate gateau

Why don't you people take your own advice you give others? You are not forced to follow the diet they suggest. No one is forcing it down your throats. Just be happy for those of us who are able to eat that kind of food instead of whinging and whining and calling us all sorts of names.

Or is it pure jelousy that makes some of you the way you are? It sure sounds like it most of the time. :roll:

Fu**ing right it's jealousy. Congratulations you lucky ba#*ard - your diabetes is easier to control than mine. Thanks for rubbing it in. I hope you realise that it's not gonna be an easy ride - 3 months of diabetic experience ain't much around here, mate.

I seriously hope that what you are doing keeps on working for you. 10 years down the line, the same DOES NOT work for me. Who knows - in another 10 years time maybe what I'm doing won't work for me anymore. At that point my research will pay off when I start exploring alternatives.

Sorry about the swearing mods - but believe it or not i was really holding back then... :x

 

[phoenix]

Go to their website and you can see all of the studies and what they are costing.

While you're there don't forget to see who are their corporate sponsors. Then do the same for the ADA, American Heart Association, etc. etc. can you spot any similarities?

So long as the research is paid for by drug companies and carbohydrate peddlers, useful stuff like this

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cg ... /53/9/2375

will be hidden away in corners when they should be front page news

Why should a five week study on 10 men be front page news?
And who paid for this particular piece of research? Is it also influenced by it's sponsors?

It was supported by grants from the American Diabetes Association, the Minnesota Beef Council, and the Colorado and Nebraska Beef Councils.

It is a fact that some industries and charities have interests in common. A new drug, or indeed a new diet may genuinely help people with diabetes live a better life, both diabetics and the industry may benefit. Obviously both the food industry and pharmaceutical industry have incentives to fund such research. (just as in the example above) The task of charities such as DUK is to make sure that such funding does not compromise integrity.
Most of the income of diabetes UK is in fact from individual members and legacies (about a third from legacies). They have corporate sponsors but also have an extremely rigorous policy governing relations with industry, including maximum donation from groups with vested interests. Donations greater than £100,000 have to be ageed by both the senior management team and the Board of trustees. Under 10% of DUK's income is derived from corporate donations, just under 5% is from the pharmaceutical industry.
If anyone wants to influence the policy of DUK, why don't they get involved with them? It is a body with a membership. There is a council of people living with diabetes (membership by election) This board in turn elects people to the board of Trustees. You can if you feel that DUK has been compromised in some way contact the board. Both its email address and membership list is on the
website.
You could also get involved with things at the grass roots level such as volunteering to help, for example in their awareness campaign. Working to change from within would might better than continual sniping from outside.

 

[cugila]

phoenix.
You said:
If anyone wants to influence the policy of DUK, why don't they get involved with them? It is a body with a membership. There is a council of people living with diabetes (membership by election) This board in turn elects people to the board of Trustees. You can if you feel that DUK has been compromised in some way contact the board. Both its email address and membership list is on the
website.
You could also get involved with things at the grass roots level such as volunteering to help, for example in their awareness campaign. Working to change from within would might better than continual sniping from outside.

Hi phoenix.
I wonder are you employed by DUK ? You should be, you would make a good PR for them.

I am involved with DUK, I am a member and I put my points over to them as and when I feel minded. Sometimes forcefully and other times more diplomatically. I am sure there are others here like me.
I object to your comment that a criticism of DUK policy outside of that arena is 'continual sniping.' It is constructive criticism and is not to be censored. The debate will go on whether you like it or not.
Hope that helps.
Ken.

 

[Trinkwasser]

Go to their website and you can see all of the studies and what they are costing.

While you're there don't forget to see who are their corporate sponsors. Then do the same for the ADA, American Heart Association, etc. etc. can you spot any similarities?

So long as the research is paid for by drug companies and carbohydrate peddlers, useful stuff like this

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cg ... /53/9/2375

will be hidden away in corners when they should be front page news

Why should a five week study on 10 men be front page news?
And who paid for this particular piece of research? Is it also influenced by it's sponsors?

It was supported by grants from the American Diabetes Association, the Minnesota Beef Council, and the Colorado and Nebraska Beef Councils.

It is a fact that some industries and charities have interests in common. A new drug, or indeed a new diet may genuinely help people with diabetes live a better life, both diabetics and the industry may benefit. Obviously both the food industry and pharmaceutical industry have incentives to fund such research. (just as in the example above) The task of charities such as DUK is to make sure that such funding does not compromise integrity.

Unfortunately the integrity is to the Heart Healthy High Carb Low Fat diet dogma which not only doesn't work for diabetes but doesn't work for any other condition. Except making profits for the Food Industry (buy cheap and sell expensive) and the drug manufacturers making products to relieve the side effects of the food industry's products.

The ADA sponsored this paper in 2004 and hid it. They are STILL saying that "the long term effects of low carb diets are not known" although they have had FIVE YEARS to follow up this paper with a long term study.

Fortunately many other researchers have grabbed the nettle by the balls and are coming up with stuff way way in advance of anthying the Diabetes Charities have to offer. DUK is almost exclusively focussed on Type 1 and insulin users who are about the only people who can get away with their diet - and even then it often doesn't work.

Does DUK actually *employ* any diabetics? Especially Type 2s?

 

[EricD]

Morning EricD.

Burning the midnight oil I see ?

I was curious about you, took a look at your posts since you joined back on 20th Feb 2009. Started off all sweetness and light, eager to learn. Then somewhere along the line you became a vehement advocate against Low Carbs. Bit like the people you decry on here with opposing views.

Where did that Eric go ? What changed you ? Why are you so anti something that may help people to control their Diabetes ? As we say, "One size doesn't fit all."

Here's one of your earlier posts:

was only dianosed abour 3 weeks ago so don't know much yet but have found some videos on youtube in my research to learn more, they may answer some of your questions.

Regards

Eric
Think I now know where you are going wrong Eric, YouTube - Research ? You are joking ? Good for jokey stuff and video's etc but research - I don't think so. Do some Scientific Research Eric, it may just save your life.

Curiosity killed the cat cugila. :wink:

mate, calm down and take a deep breath and listen.

I am NOT against low carbing and in fact I have said a couple of times that I will go on it if I have to. What I am against, however, is the fact the way some people here behave themselves and laugh and be abusive towards any one who does not follow their "advice" and also the fact that some people are giving false and blood dangerous advice like eating high fat.

BTW, have you seen the vids on youtube? Don't you think that the explanation on how the pancreas works and why people become diabetics is not worthy of wacthing to learn for some one new to diabetics and has no idea what the pancreas does?

"research"? Yes, one of the reasons why I joined this forum is to learn, that is my "research" but all one gets to read here is "low-carbs" and then more "low-carbs", next thread, more "low-carbs". Yes you guessed it, so is the next thread and the one after that also etc. etc. etc. and let's not forget the abuse. Are you saying that I should do my "research" and learn elsewhere?

BTW, you asked elsewhere " Why is my Cholesterol level so good ? " 3.5. Yes it is good and the rest of your numbers stack up well too. So we must assume that your Diet is good ? Maybe not as good as you think.

But maybe it is. :wink:

Your BMI is in the Obese category, 32+. Not an attack, an observation.

I am not taking this as an attack because you don't know my medical history but if you feel like it do a little research and find out why people with pancreatitis have a slighly bigger stomach then before they became victims to this disease.

Before I came down with pancreatitis I weighed 72kgs. 3 weeks in hospital filled ot the eyeballs with morphine and two months lying on my back again on morphin making promises to people that I would go and fix their pc's only to get another phone call next day asking me why I never turned up at their doorsteps. I had no idea what they were talking about and recollection of the "supposed" phone conversation we had and me promising them the moon and the sun.

When I left the hospital after three weeks, the following week I lost 6 kgs in 6 days, that's ikg a day, not because I went on a diet but my pancereas stopped producing the enzimes it was supposed to produce to break down the food. What I ate came out exactly the same size and shape they went in and after 6 days miraculasly my pancreas had recovered and started working again but only two thirds of it, the other one third was and still is blocked by the stone, hence the reason why I became a diabetic and am waiting for a partial pancreatectomy. What happens after the op is anyones guess, I could miraculasly become "normal" again or the worse type of diabetic that is possible.

Now you know a little bit more about me and why I say that I will eat whatever I can that will not raise my BG. I'll see what happens after the op and will take it from there.

Mine too is in the same category. However, mine was 40 before I started to reduce the Carbs in my Diet - it's now down to 33, not far behind you Eric. All in two months. I have to be careful of fat consumption as well, I have had Cardiac problems for many years.
Mainly because of the conflicting Scientific evidence regarding the consumption of Fats, I'm not convinced so far that there is anything which could be termed conclusive ? Fats, Good OR Bad, I'm not sure, so the Jury is out on that one at the moment.

Well done reducing your BMI but as far as I am concerned the "Jury came in" about 30 years ago when they first discovered high colesterol in my bloood when I ate fats and chicken skin and back to normal levels when I didn't eat what I was not supoosed to. Maybe everones body uses the fat different, who knows.

My Cholesterol level is 3.2 at present. Why is it so good Eric ?
My HbA1c has gone from 8.3% in January 2009 to 6.7% a few days ago. Why is that Eric ?
My Weight has gone from 124.5 Kilos in January 2009 to 111 Kilos a few days ago. Why is that Eric ?

Food for thought ?

Congrats and keep on doing what you are doing. If what you do works for you then I agree with it 100%.

 

[EricD]

Couldn't sleep so I thought I'd "educate" myself a little and what do I find? Yet another thread with "low carbers" are "right" and others are wrong, "thick" and "malicious" but of course the name calling is "reserved" for only those who suggest and not those who follow.

And of course there's the "conspiracy theory" as well.

I swear to GOD. DUK wants us to kill ourselves.

Give them the benefit of the doubt though guys. Maybe they're just a bit thick rather than malicious?
Either way they're keen to make sure their constituency gets bigger, not smaller.

Just wondering what else they would put in the packed lunch, slice of chocolate gateau

Why don't you people take your own advice you give others? You are not forced to follow the diet they suggest. No one is forcing it down your throats. Just be happy for those of us who are able to eat that kind of food instead of whinging and whining and calling us all sorts of names.

Or is it pure jelousy that makes some of you the way you are? It sure sounds like it most of the time. :roll:

Fu**ing right it's jealousy. Congratulations you lucky ba#*ard - your diabetes is easier to control than mine. Thanks for rubbing it in. I hope you realise that it's not gonna be an easy ride - 3 months of diabetic experience ain't much around here, mate.

I seriously hope that what you are doing keeps on working for you. 10 years down the line, the same DOES NOT work for me. Who knows - in another 10 years time maybe what I'm doing won't work for me anymore. At that point my research will pay off when I start exploring alternatives.

Sorry about the swearing mods - but believe it or not i was really holding back then... :x

Oh, thanks.....I think. :?

I am not boasting or "rubbing it in" mate but some others are doing just that with their "low-carbs" diet and BG and Hb1Ac numbers. It's not the "Low-carb" diet I am against, it's peoples attitude and the way they treat others who dare to say, even in the slightest, something different.

After all, it's not me who is whinging, whining, swearing and being abusive at anyone mate, look around you and see what's going on.

BTW, you don't have to apologise to an "old soldier" about swearing, where do you think the saying "swears like a trooper" came from? :wink: :lol:

 

[tubolard]

This is all personal opinion.

I will put my hands up and say that I am not a DUK member...yet.

I don't know about employing people with diabetes - but I am a member of the DUK Involvement Network and I think I read that Hana signed up as well. I did contemplate standing for membership of the CPD but decided that, this year at least, I had enough on my plate - but thanks to those who volunteered(!) to be referees.

I don't know about a bias toward type 1, as I understand it the DUK APC in Glasgow this year had a type 2 emphasis (can't swear to that as I wasn't allowed to attend not being intelligent enough and all).

I won't criticise DUK on the whole as I think they do a **** fine job - certainly from the emails I get from them they appear to have their priorities right.

DUK have a responsibility to promote a healthy diet for diabetes and they must use perceived medical wisdom when publishing that advice - regardless of your opinion of that perceived medical wisdom. As I see it DUK are fulfilling their responsibility. I'm one of the lucky ones, a low GI diet works for me, and I have long argued that informed patient choice plays an important part in our treatment decisions, surely an element of that choice is not to follow the dietary advice given us by DUK?

Not all of us who follow the so-called high carb/low fat advice given us by our HCPs are herd members. I, for one, like to think I play an active role with my care team.

As to the original recipe, I'd like to give it a whirl, maybe swap out the highly processed white flour with wholemeal flour, it would make a tasty savoury alternative to a muesli & date bread I make when I have the inclination.

Regards, Tubs.

 

[butterfly]

Wow I'm thinking perhaps it is not a good idea to post on this forum. You can have an opinion but it has to be the same as someone elses or you just get people being rather harsh with their replies.
I only said that I ate the loaf and liked it and that D.U.K. do some good work.
As for the "constructive critisism" that I referred to as moaning, I think you would do better to call it destructive critisism as in your opinions the advice re diet from D.U.K. is incompetent.

I feel quite saddened to think that I was going to use this forum to join in and be part of a diabetic community. It is obvious that I can join in as long as I tow the party line. I am an individual and that is not the way that I want to. Perhaps you could give me a list of taboo subjects so that if I stay then I won't make the same mistake again.

Vicky. :shock:

 

[sugarless sue]

Butterfly,
everyone has an opinion,that's what makes the forum an interesting an contentious place.It would be no good for members if everyone said the same.Read ,make up your own mind and leave the rest.that is how we learn and grow to make our own choices.

 

[cugila]

Hi butterfly.

As you used my 'constructive criticism' comment, I will briefly respond.

I don't want you to think that you are wasting your time here on the forum. I apologise if you thought that was said or inferred. I do have issues with DUK and the NHS, but we won't go there.

This is a Forum - A meeting place for the open discussion of subjects of public interest.

Now I for one, am happy to hear all sides of any discussion. I may not agree with them, I may make that quite clear at times. I am not going to stop putting my opinions forward as and when I see fit.

Sometimes subjects which may at first seem trivial, can cause great passion in the responses. We are all still friends after these episodes and normal service resumes, sometimes !
Don't go away please, we need more opinions - whether we agree or not.

Ken.