A bit of a rant - sorry

Flora123

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I find it fascinating that if someone is told they have an allergy to a foodstuff (eg nuts, coeliac) which if they continue to eat it will make them very ill or even kill them they are most unlikely to continue. However with Diabetes which could be alleviated by eating low carb the same is just not true. Not judging just observing.

But the majority of the medical establishment won’t acknowledge there is a problem with carbs. In fact quite the opposite. My DN can’t understand that I just can’t eat carbs without consequences. I only have this knowledge as I (mostly) self fund testing. They are adamant that carbs are vital yet amazed at my success of “remission” (their words) in three months. I give up with them and just smile sweetly.
 

Listlad

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My direct encounter with DEMON was at a stall they were manning at my local Self Care event. I specifically decided to go to see what they had to say and I was shocked to find that what many members experience on this forum is true. What’s more there was no glimmer of recognition of a low carb high fat approach as a way to deal with T2 diabetes or recognition of this forum or Diabetes.co.uk.

I cannot remember for sure now but I don’t think the lady representative had heard of Dr David Unwin.

And she had a load of Diabetes UK leaflets on her stall.:banghead:
 
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PenguinMum

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But the majority of the medical establishment won’t acknowledge there is a problem with carbs. In fact quite the opposite. My DN can’t understand that I just can’t eat carbs without consequences. I only have this knowledge as I (mostly) self fund testing. They are adamant that carbs are vital yet amazed at my success of “remission” (their words) in three months. I give up with them and just smile sweetly.
It does seem to be the case that a lot of HCPs are of that mind. However we do all have to take responsibility for our own health too as grown ups. My parents followed every word the doctor uttered but we are not that generation. Apart from the doctor’s surgery there is a lot out there about LC approach (newspapers, tv, on line) but for some reason some people dont want to know.
 

HSSS

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because they don't see a practical way out.


In the same way, there will be plenty of people who are over weight or obese who are controlling their blood sugars well with diet and/or medication. They are reducing the increased risks of diabetic complications but are still at risk of complications that are known to be associated with carrying too much weight.



It not always an easy thing to fix or get hold of, even though you know its not good for you.

and this is what a course should be doing. Giving them a practical way out.

of course there are exceptions but a lot of t2 people who get blood sugar under control with diet will often get weight under improved control too as a by product.

Agreed. Definitely not easy all the time or for everyone, despite knowing what should be done
 

Resurgam

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I am almost sure that the man I saw at the supermarket this summer was on my education course - but he had both feet then.
I really do feel guilty that I was kept quiet in the session, that my being no longer diabetic by the third one was not commented on - that I did not interrupt more.
 

Daphne917

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My friend has been attending the new weekly 2 hours sessions (forget what’s it’s called - Carbs R Us springs to mind) for newly diagnosed pre and T2 diabetics and they are still pushing the eatwell plate. Despite me suggesting that she reduce her carbs she still eats the ‘healthy’ whole meal bread, rice and pasta, jacket potatoes and low fat fruit yoghurts etc as directed by her course tutor. She did say though that neither she or her fellow students have lost any weight despite being on the ‘diet’ for 6 weeks! I wonder why!!
 
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PamJHS

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My friend has been attending the new weekly 2 hours sessions (forget what’s it’s called - Carbs R Us springs to mind) for newly diagnosed pre and T2 diabetics and they are still pushing the eatwell plate. Despite me suggesting that she reduce her carbs she still eats the ‘healthy’ whole meal bread, rice and pasta, jacket potatoes and low fat fruit yoghurts etc as directed by her course tutor. She did say though that neither she or her fellow students have lost any weight despite being on the ‘diet’ for 6 weeks! I wonder why!!

I've just been to the first session of that, or something very similar, which was a 1:1 with someone. Then there are 8 weekly group sessions, some monthly sessions, and I have to be weighed and my waist measured at the start and end of the course. I was astonished to find when I looked through my course booklet that I'd set myself targets like 'Drink 2 glasses of water a day' and 'Walk without a stick', written in by the trainer! :rolleyes:

Incidentally - I HATE feeling so negative about everything, I'm using this opportunity to have a good moan! :cat:
 
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Daphne917

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@PamJHS rant away. Unfortunately there is still a misguided belief by most of the medical profession that the Eatwell Plate is the correct diet for diabetics when most of us here on the forum realise that it is not. I was invited to go on a Desmond course but didn’t take up the offer as I had already found this forum and, as my BS, was doing well I didn’t bother.
 

scousefly

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Your experience is only too common. I asked in here about DESMOND before I decided whether to book it.
After the comments I received I decided that:-
At best it would be a waste of my time (though I would be labelled as non-compliant at my GP Surgery).
At worst I would be biting my tongue all day, or involved in arguments with the 'educator'.
I refused a Desmond course as I was also told it was aimed at the ‘dumbest’ person in the room on the day. I also was at in front of a diabetic nurse who was at least a size 22 (UK) and a dietitian who looked like she hadn’t eaten a square meal in her life. I have always been a carb and protein watcher due to the gym work and I halved my initial HBA1C in the first three months. I just watch my intake and don’t go silly with the sugar. By all means rant it shows others that your not being taken for a fool. My last nurse appointment ended with the advice of your bloods are great stop taking a reading so often and don’t take your testing gear on holiday with you. I nearly swore at the nurse and her ‘advice’ and she put me on statins as my cholesterol went up up by 0.01. I haven’t used them and I ignored her advice completely. My next blood test next week will be very interesting as far as discussion is concerned
 

Listlad

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As a newly diagnosed person and just to add a balance to the scales a tiny bit. I also have a family member who is a dietitian who works for the NHS.


I attended a desmond course within a few weeks, i found it very informative. Mainly from the position of validating much of what I had read (understand your enemy and all that). Most people in the room were frankly entirely ignorant of what Diabetes was and how food affected you. They left with a better understanding and some ideas on small changes they can make, for some people the idea of a total life style change just leads to burying heads in the sand, especially as if the mix of people in the room was anything to go by, this was just another pin in a long line of ailments.


The activities on food I agree were not great, but they were based on the current, scientifically accepted facts. For an average person with a high blood sugar, cutting down on refined carbs helps allot. I know there are people who are not helped by this, however for the average “drifting into diabetes” it helps.


Fundamentally I don’t agree with the idea that they are giving people bad information on purpose, the whole point of funding education courses is to limit the cost to the NHS in the future for complications and drugs that may otherwise have been avoided.


The reason I mention my family connection, is that I spoke with her about the subject and she did mention both “Newcastle diet” studies (the 500 cal pancreas kick treatment), LCHF, LCMF and some other things. She stressed in some detail the basis for each, but also stressed the unknown risks from her professional standpoint.


The clear reason these cannot be taught is that there is not enough long-term scientific evidence for them to be taught, there is scientific evidence to state that controlling refined carbs reduces the chance of complications. There is clearly evidence that a LCHF controls diabetes very well, that goes without question. However there needs to be 30 or 40 years’ worth of end of life understanding to ensure its not significantly increasing the risk of cancer, or strokes or something else. Im not suggesting there is a chance, im not a medical researcher, but you can imagine what would happen if the NHS were teaching people to eat in a way that ultimately killed them quicker then the diabetes would have.


We must in our annoyance about this course understand the very difficult position the NHS and its staff are in when developing long term strategy’s for care.

*Edit - I think if you had a course that put blame on people is terrible, mine was not like that. However we did draw a clear line between loosing weight and reducing the risk of Type 2 - This is a fact for the vast majority of type 2. Not a blame game but there is a definitive link between the two things and to avoid it in the DESMOND course would be appalling. On mine it was channeled into motivation about making the small changes we all discussed.

I do understand the point that you make and it is one of the reasons I have gone with a moderately low carb diet. However there are some of us that need to go lower and it is those that have little choice but to go keto or even carnivore and where long term side effects of doing so are countered by nearer term deterioration to blood sugar related symptoms from not doing so.
 

Norfolkmell

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When diagnosed T2 3 half years ago my GP told me LCHF and no mention of Desmond,plus he pointing me towards this and the diet doctor web site. I see the 'diabetes' nurse in the practice once a year who just tests my feet and weight and marvels at how much weight I've lost, 6 1/2 stone and counting. After the first annual check we don't discuss diet. My beloved was diagnosed pre diabetic last year and told to see the practice nurse. I went with him and he was handed a leaflet on the eat well plate and keeps being invited to courses that he can't attend as he works full time as well as looking after me. Despite the surgery chasing him almost weekly he hasn't made an appointment for his annual check yet. He eats the same as me and when I do get to test his blood its invariably less than mine. He has put on a couple of pounds this year but having a 28 inch waist I'm not too concerned. The surgery also offers the slimming world offer. It seems that my preferred GP isn't high enough up in the practice to influence the people he works with.
 
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I do understand the point that you make and it is one of the reasons I have gone with a moderately low carb diet. However there are some of us that need to go lower and it is those that have little choice but to go keto or even carnivore and where long term side effects of doing so are countered by nearer term deterioration to blood sugar related symptoms from not doing so.

Don’t forget also that some choose keto or full-carnivore because they prefer it. Grain-free eating can bring about benefits reaching far beyond just better glucose stability. Plant-free is also beneficial to some (I know it is for me). Not everyone eating such diets is necessarily doing so out of an absolute requirement to keep their blood glucose within range. There are lots of people choosing the zero-carb lifestyle who have never even been diabetic.
 

Thomas the Tank

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Apologies for posting a rant, but I just need to get it off my chest.

DESMOND - grrrrrrrrr

Went to a full day DESMOND course last week, which was all about getting us onto a traditional weight loss diet, with hardly any mention of lowering carbohydrate intake at all, apart from one exercise asking us to guess 'How many sugar lumps are in these foods?' There were numerous exercises using plastic food items aimed at us learning what was 'healthy'. We were repeatedly told 'We never say 'no' to anything, but all the usual advice to cut fats in order to cut calories was built into the course.

I left feeling very disheartened, and it was very hard to refocus on low carb eating, despite having had such a good result from my first couple of months. (HB1ac down by 5 and 3 kg weight loss).

I won't even attempt to describe the 1:1 session I had with a health adviser the very next day (by complete coincidence) as part of the 'Healthy Living' course. Same message - 'You have made yourself ill' and 'You must lose weight by eating what we tell you'.

The emotional effects of a diabetes diagnosis were mentioned both times, but apart from a few sessions of counselling through IAPTS, there is no emotional support on offer.

I've got nearly 40 years of traditional dieting behind me, the overall result being that I've almost doubled my starting weight. I feel so discouraged that this is all that's on offer, and completely insulted by being given plastic food to play with as if I was at primary school!
I walked out of my DESMOND day after pronouncing in a very loud voice they were teaching bovine stuff and were a danger to the people attending. I guess most there sadly just got worse over the years.
 

Lamont D

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Don’t forget also that some choose keto or full-carnivore because they prefer it. Grain-free eating can bring about benefits reaching far beyond just better glucose stability. Plant-free is also beneficial to some (I know it is for me). Not everyone eating such diets is necessarily doing so out of an absolute requirement to keep their blood glucose within range. There are lots of people choosing the zero-carb lifestyle who have never even been diabetic.
Then, there are those like me, have no choice whatsoever!
I must be so careful with what goes into my mouth!
Being intolerant to so many foods, is so annoying, when a doctor, dietician, dsn and even specialists, tell you, that you will not have good brain function if you stop eating carbs. It is a necessity for good health to eat carbs!
I have heard it so many times!
The problem that they don't want to believe is that it is possible to have really good brain function, good health and Improved lifestyle without having carbs.
I would rather risk life without carbs than what they do to me!
Again, I don't have the luxury of choice.
Carbs make me really ill!
How many others have suffered because of this intolerance to food?
An intolerance is so similar to an allergy but it creeps up on you slowly over time, until your body reacts to the constant bombardment of high glucose or high insulin or other hormonal responses and of course the resulting symptoms.
Having to eat Keto, is essential to my future health.
That is a major difference between having an intolerance than just dietary changes.
I had to find this information and have the resourcefulness to achieve this lifestyle.
Carbs were killing me slowly, I had no choice, only this forum advocated these drastic measures , not one medical professional, including my endocrinologist who diagnosed me and probably saved my life, gave any advice about not eating carbs.
I had to persuade him, that this course of action was necessary to get my health and my life back. He reluctantly accepted it.
It is sustainable, it can be life changing, not eating carbs, saved my life!
I cannot understand why, despite all the evidence that reducing carbs is so beneficial to those who have an intolerance to certain foods and gives better control of their blood sugar levels.
My wife has T2, and a lot of other conditions, her general health has improved dramatically because of three things, the meds she is now on, the reduction in carbs, and eating more meat that doesn't come from a production line or fast food outlets.

Rant on, over and out!
 

Mike d

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There's a fearful ignorance out there. The medical community has not yet caught up. Doubt it'll happen anytime soon.
 
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Listlad

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I’d be interested to know what you think these are, and based on which evidence.
I should have added the word “potential”. But I was referring to the grey area or the unknown that was being alluded to in the posting of Snoopy’s.
 

Flora123

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It does seem to be the case that a lot of HCPs are of that mind. However we do all have to take responsibility for our own health too as grown ups. My parents followed every word the doctor uttered but we are not that generation. Apart from the doctor’s surgery there is a lot out there about LC approach (newspapers, tv, on line) but for some reason some people dont want to know.

I think we live in a difficult time with nhs advising one thing and WE know another thing works better for us. For every story out there about how good for us (anyone) a LC diet is, there are others telling us how bad for us it is. I have lots of people telling me they’d never follow this WOE as it’s “really really bad” for you!! . There is a lot of propaganda out there too.
 
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liza_h

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I have recently become weary of hearing reports such as yours. DESMOND advocates need to tell their 'teachers' that, actually, they are not seeing any stalls in the progression of complications and drug prescriptions are still rising.
Someone needs to ask these advocates just how many patients they have put into remission, how many have lowered their dosages of drugs/insulin and how many of their patients develope complications within, let's say, five years after doing the course.

And I would dearly like to know how many DESMOND courses are run by the private sector on behalf of the NHS.

I'd also like to know how many are actually professional educators. If they were inspected by Ofsted they would fail. They don't appear to offer any differentiation or take into account any prior knowledge. I was a professional educator for 30 years, brought up by a T2 (diet controlled) and studied sport science and nutrition. I refused to go on one of these patronising courses having read about them on here. Waste of my time and NHS money.

I'm sorry it left you demoralised Pam - you already know what's working for you and therefore stick with that! You're making progress which is great. I'm also following low carb after reading extensively on here - and it's working for me too! It doesn't matter what advice the NHS providers say - mine told me my hba1c normal when I was clearly pre-diabetes so I'm doing my own thing.
and this is what a course should be doing. Giving them a practical way out.

of course there are exceptions but a lot of t2 people who get blood sugar under control with diet will often get weight under improved control too as a by product.

Agreed. Definitely not easy all the time or for everyone, despite knowing what should be done
and a truely professional educator would be able to do this on a course. These courses are run by amateur/ incompetent educators which is part of the problem
 
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