How about Ridiculous Healthy Eating Trends Only Recommend Incredible (or Indigestible?) Codswallop.
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mouseee
Well-Known Member
I have 'forgotten' to book my DESMOND course. I think I know my way around what raises my bg now, a couple of months in with the help of this forum.
I do however have my first DSN appt weds so we'll see what they say. There's hope as the Dr didn't dismiss my questions about LC although she wasn't sure about HF and the HCA told me jacket potatoes were bad!
I do however have my first DSN appt weds so we'll see what they say. There's hope as the Dr didn't dismiss my questions about LC although she wasn't sure about HF and the HCA told me jacket potatoes were bad!
Japes
Well-Known Member
Diabetes Specialist Nurse.
DavidGrahamJones
Well-Known Member
The good news is that it's all behind you and that you now have the "official" guidelines as well as the LC approach. You can now truthfully say that you can compare the two and you know which one is better for you.
No more discussion required, you know what's best. Keep up the good work. Don't let the b******* get you down. My favourite phrase or saying is "How can you soar with the eagles (that's members of the forum) when you're surrounded by turkeys (Your Desmond lot).
ickihun
Master
I agree with @zand.
No blame for being neglected, I feel.
No one was born with knowledge.
My older GP is great now. He understands so much more. A little part of me wonders if his closeness with T2 has ironically helped. Even GPs can hv diabetes.
If only so many could hv been prevented from acquiring the disease, in the first place. Only so due to ignorance decades ago and maybe for some areas months ago.
Remission is a familiar word in the nhs.
Only a few years ago it was suspected but not defined.
Its always more believable if in black and white.
No blame for being neglected, I feel.
No one was born with knowledge.
My older GP is great now. He understands so much more. A little part of me wonders if his closeness with T2 has ironically helped. Even GPs can hv diabetes.
If only so many could hv been prevented from acquiring the disease, in the first place. Only so due to ignorance decades ago and maybe for some areas months ago.
Remission is a familiar word in the nhs.
Only a few years ago it was suspected but not defined.
Its always more believable if in black and white.
PamJHS
Active Member
Thank you! I'd got as far as 'Diabetes/diabetic' and 'Nurse'!
JohnEGreen
Master
I was booked onto the course at least three times by my DN but I realised early on that it would be a total waist of my time so did not attend any of them.
Also by the time I had been booked on the first one I had already reduced my BS levels after joining here and learning some good sense.
Also by the time I had been booked on the first one I had already reduced my BS levels after joining here and learning some good sense.
As a newly diagnosed person and just to add a balance to the scales a tiny bit. I also have a family member who is a dietitian who works for the NHS.
I attended a desmond course within a few weeks, i found it very informative. Mainly from the position of validating much of what I had read (understand your enemy and all that). Most people in the room were frankly entirely ignorant of what Diabetes was and how food affected you. They left with a better understanding and some ideas on small changes they can make, for some people the idea of a total life style change just leads to burying heads in the sand, especially as if the mix of people in the room was anything to go by, this was just another pin in a long line of ailments.
The activities on food I agree were not great, but they were based on the current, scientifically accepted facts. For an average person with a high blood sugar, cutting down on refined carbs helps allot. I know there are people who are not helped by this, however for the average “drifting into diabetes” it helps.
Fundamentally I don’t agree with the idea that they are giving people bad information on purpose, the whole point of funding education courses is to limit the cost to the NHS in the future for complications and drugs that may otherwise have been avoided.
The reason I mention my family connection, is that I spoke with her about the subject and she did mention both “Newcastle diet” studies (the 500 cal pancreas kick treatment), LCHF, LCMF and some other things. She stressed in some detail the basis for each, but also stressed the unknown risks from her professional standpoint.
The clear reason these cannot be taught is that there is not enough long-term scientific evidence for them to be taught, there is scientific evidence to state that controlling refined carbs reduces the chance of complications. There is clearly evidence that a LCHF controls diabetes very well, that goes without question. However there needs to be 30 or 40 years’ worth of end of life understanding to ensure its not significantly increasing the risk of cancer, or strokes or something else. Im not suggesting there is a chance, im not a medical researcher, but you can imagine what would happen if the NHS were teaching people to eat in a way that ultimately killed them quicker then the diabetes would have.
We must in our annoyance about this course understand the very difficult position the NHS and its staff are in when developing long term strategy’s for care.
*Edit - I think if you had a course that put blame on people is terrible, mine was not like that. However we did draw a clear line between loosing weight and reducing the risk of Type 2 - This is a fact for the vast majority of type 2. Not a blame game but there is a definitive link between the two things and to avoid it in the DESMOND course would be appalling. On mine it was channeled into motivation about making the small changes we all discussed.
I attended a desmond course within a few weeks, i found it very informative. Mainly from the position of validating much of what I had read (understand your enemy and all that). Most people in the room were frankly entirely ignorant of what Diabetes was and how food affected you. They left with a better understanding and some ideas on small changes they can make, for some people the idea of a total life style change just leads to burying heads in the sand, especially as if the mix of people in the room was anything to go by, this was just another pin in a long line of ailments.
The activities on food I agree were not great, but they were based on the current, scientifically accepted facts. For an average person with a high blood sugar, cutting down on refined carbs helps allot. I know there are people who are not helped by this, however for the average “drifting into diabetes” it helps.
Fundamentally I don’t agree with the idea that they are giving people bad information on purpose, the whole point of funding education courses is to limit the cost to the NHS in the future for complications and drugs that may otherwise have been avoided.
The reason I mention my family connection, is that I spoke with her about the subject and she did mention both “Newcastle diet” studies (the 500 cal pancreas kick treatment), LCHF, LCMF and some other things. She stressed in some detail the basis for each, but also stressed the unknown risks from her professional standpoint.
The clear reason these cannot be taught is that there is not enough long-term scientific evidence for them to be taught, there is scientific evidence to state that controlling refined carbs reduces the chance of complications. There is clearly evidence that a LCHF controls diabetes very well, that goes without question. However there needs to be 30 or 40 years’ worth of end of life understanding to ensure its not significantly increasing the risk of cancer, or strokes or something else. Im not suggesting there is a chance, im not a medical researcher, but you can imagine what would happen if the NHS were teaching people to eat in a way that ultimately killed them quicker then the diabetes would have.
We must in our annoyance about this course understand the very difficult position the NHS and its staff are in when developing long term strategy’s for care.
*Edit - I think if you had a course that put blame on people is terrible, mine was not like that. However we did draw a clear line between loosing weight and reducing the risk of Type 2 - This is a fact for the vast majority of type 2. Not a blame game but there is a definitive link between the two things and to avoid it in the DESMOND course would be appalling. On mine it was channeled into motivation about making the small changes we all discussed.
PamJHS
Active Member
There was absolutely no information about reducing any kind of carbohydrate specifically in the one I attended. I don't think I blinked and missed it. There was more time spent on fats than on carbohydrates.
As far as I can see, DESMOND is some kind of franchise operation that the NHS in different areas are choosing to purchase? Just as the NHS in some areas has also provided Slimming World membership for weight loss? It clear to me that the NHS as a body just doesn't know what to do about obesity - that's fair enough, nor do I.
I went on an NHS/local HA course on 'healthy eating' some years ago which was very similar. There were certainly people in the room who had apparently never realised food HAD labels, let alone read them and gathered information from them. I see that bringing those people up to speed on nutrition is a difficult task.
However, my main problem with DESMOND was that I left the course feeling more despondent and less motivated to change than I had started. The whole morning consisted of scare stories about the dangers of diabetes. The afternoon was playing with plastic food. No strategies were presented other than 'eat 100 calories fewer a day and you will lose 5kg a year'. Well that really does depend on a lot of things, doesn't it?
The people running the course made it very clear that they were following a template for the day provided by DESMOND, so I think DESMOND must take a little responsibility for the content, surely?
As far as I can see, DESMOND is some kind of franchise operation that the NHS in different areas are choosing to purchase? Just as the NHS in some areas has also provided Slimming World membership for weight loss? It clear to me that the NHS as a body just doesn't know what to do about obesity - that's fair enough, nor do I.
I went on an NHS/local HA course on 'healthy eating' some years ago which was very similar. There were certainly people in the room who had apparently never realised food HAD labels, let alone read them and gathered information from them. I see that bringing those people up to speed on nutrition is a difficult task.
However, my main problem with DESMOND was that I left the course feeling more despondent and less motivated to change than I had started. The whole morning consisted of scare stories about the dangers of diabetes. The afternoon was playing with plastic food. No strategies were presented other than 'eat 100 calories fewer a day and you will lose 5kg a year'. Well that really does depend on a lot of things, doesn't it?
The people running the course made it very clear that they were following a template for the day provided by DESMOND, so I think DESMOND must take a little responsibility for the content, surely?
HSSS
Expert
You mean like the low fat high carb advice that got brought 8n without much evidence?
a link doesn’t show the direction of cause and effect though.
I get that for some people some of the courses have some, limited, benefit. Depending on where you are starting any carb reduction will help. But it’s the fevered anti low carb and anti testing stance and sole focus on weight that bugs me. Even if they were to be open that there are other options that are supported by the nhs (as the low carb program is!) it would be progress.
Don’t get me wrong, i don’t disagree with some of the sentiment but it’s an uphill struggle for the NHS. I genuinely believe that many of people who end up on this forum and others like it, are those people who are motivated to do what is necessary and will make big changes to get the numbers down. I suspect they are in the minority overall. Either people who have beat it, then over time its come back and need to make bigger changes, first timers like me determined to beat it, or people who have been battling for a long time and want to share their positive experiences are on the forum.
I myself am following the NHS advice and its working well. However, if it stops working, I will change again, I will do what I need to protect my family.
Again, i can only go by the 10 people i met on the course, but most of them were in total denial about the whole thing. After the exercise about how carbs are the enemy of a diabetic and to be careful of total carb content (How many grams of sugar in the slice of bread type thing), how much sugar in a small bottle of coke, we had dinner and i sat with two people who went directly and bought a bottle of coke. A third pulled a 1.5 litre bottle from the bag and quaffed it over lunch.
I get sugar is addictive (I really really do), but if its hard to change people if they are not ready to change.
I’m also not critising the people, its really hard to even make small changes, but I think many people just absorb a diabetes diagnosis and put it as one of the things that happens and take the medication and carry on as normal.
Imagine the evidence was present, that LCHF had zero negative side effects on health long term and the NHS could teach it. If the course instead said go LCHF, you can’t eat chips, bread, pasta, cake, sweets, beans etc in anything apart from tiny amounts but if you do follow it you wont have any complications. I think at least the same result, if not less people would follow it. It takes a very determined person to stick to that path.
When a majority of people struggle to make small changes, like simply avoid large portion of refined carbs, cut out sugary drinks and eat less cake… its really hard to push a more difficult objective.
I myself am following the NHS advice and its working well. However, if it stops working, I will change again, I will do what I need to protect my family.
Again, i can only go by the 10 people i met on the course, but most of them were in total denial about the whole thing. After the exercise about how carbs are the enemy of a diabetic and to be careful of total carb content (How many grams of sugar in the slice of bread type thing), how much sugar in a small bottle of coke, we had dinner and i sat with two people who went directly and bought a bottle of coke. A third pulled a 1.5 litre bottle from the bag and quaffed it over lunch.
I get sugar is addictive (I really really do), but if its hard to change people if they are not ready to change.
I’m also not critising the people, its really hard to even make small changes, but I think many people just absorb a diabetes diagnosis and put it as one of the things that happens and take the medication and carry on as normal.
Imagine the evidence was present, that LCHF had zero negative side effects on health long term and the NHS could teach it. If the course instead said go LCHF, you can’t eat chips, bread, pasta, cake, sweets, beans etc in anything apart from tiny amounts but if you do follow it you wont have any complications. I think at least the same result, if not less people would follow it. It takes a very determined person to stick to that path.
When a majority of people struggle to make small changes, like simply avoid large portion of refined carbs, cut out sugary drinks and eat less cake… its really hard to push a more difficult objective.
HSSS
Expert
Very sadly you are probably right. However the active resistance, the lack of even offering it as an option and discouragement is what I’m against. Sure people will make their choices but they should be informed choices. Even if the course didn’t change much, in order not to overwhelm many, then a postscript of the further options available and how to access them for the more motivated and interested would be huge progress.
M
Member496333
Guest
To be fair, though, approximately three million years of human evolution that was undone in one fell swoop by one bad scientist forty years ago should be evidence enough to conclude that lower carbohydrate eating isn't dangerous. It was even said at the time that we didn't "have the luxury" of waiting until all the evidence was in. That evidence is now in - it was a disaster. Time to stop dilly dallying...
PenguinMum
Expert
I find it fascinating that if someone is told they have an allergy to a foodstuff (eg nuts, coeliac) which if they continue to eat it will make them very ill or even kill them they are most unlikely to continue. However with Diabetes which could be alleviated by eating low carb the same is just not true. Not judging just observing.
PamJHS
Active Member
I'm sure this is true. In my case, there was no help at all coming from anywhere else other than a load of information printed off the internet by our practice nurse, so I had to look for support and information myself. It took 6 months to get onto the DESMOND course.
'Denial' is a fair summary of how I felt when diagnosed, largely because I've had so many serious illnesses over the last few years. But isn't the example you give, of people going off and buying Coke straight after being told it was bad for them, not an example of the approach NOT working? I'm not arguing for the sake of it, but at what point are people in denial going to get it?
Again, this is true. But you seem to be implying most people won't change at all, no matter what? If this is really the case, then, in the end, either the NHS leave people to get very ill and require more treatment, or medicate. Wouldn't it be better to focus the message on 'fewer carbs' rather than a very broad low calorie approach, if that will bring improvement to most people?
Anyway, I did label this thread a rant rather than 'a rational critique of DESMOND', because my reaction was very emotional. The last thing I need is more anxiety and depression!
In fairness i think some times its where some ones trigger is, one persons trigger inst the same as some one elses, especially over the long term.
I have been told for years, being about 105kg that i'm obese and need to loose weight or it will cause me problems
I have been told about all the potential complications and i ignored it or made changes for a few months and yo yo back up.
I had a bad tummy and part of the diagnosis they checked my liver and said it was getting fatty, they said its associated with obesity and i needed to lose weight to get a healthy liver back or i could be in trouble in the future.
I changed for a few months
I was diagnosed with type 2 and decided to make a major change. I can see and certainly met people on the course who just took this as the next natural step. Some of those will end up with serious complications and then make a change, some by that point still wont because they don't see a practical way out.
In the same way, there will be plenty of people who are over weight or obese who are controlling their blood sugars well with diet and/or medication. They are reducing the increased risks of diabetic complications but are still at risk of complications that are known to be associated with carrying too much weight. It not always an easy thing to fix or get hold of, even though you know its not good for you.
