I have no idea, Gezzathorpe! I think we need Yorksman to answer these questions as he knows so much. ;-)
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paul-1976 said:
Hi Paul, I'll try and find it ... may take a little while. In the meantime, 'compensatory hypersecretion' describes me. I think I may be pregnant!!!! .....
"In pregnancy-related insulin resistance, insulin secretion similarly rises substantially and then rapidly falls again postpartum. The mechanisms by which compensatory hypersecretion of insulin occurs are not well understood. Moreover, the failure of this compensatory adaptation to insulin resistance in diabetes is less well understood and a subject of intense investigation."
from http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/483307_4
This compensatory adaptation seems to fit my pattern of high spike followed by back to normal within 2 hours. That makes me an adaptable person. :mrgreen:
paul-1976 said:
Hi, the quote was from the link below under the heading Regulating Insulin. Can't vouch for the content, as I just stumbled on it at random, so don't assume I'm an avid reader of this particular site. Any site called 'nutritionwonderland' makes me think of supplements, reflexology and aromatherapy etc. and I usually run a mile.
http://nutritionwonderland.com/2010/05/understanding-our-bodies-insulin/
paul-1976 said:
Here's a question for you Paul. I had a preprandial bG reading of 5.7, ate a low-carb snack as it turned out then was 5.1 at +1:00hr. What do you think was going on? Do you, typically, get such a pattern?
Over almost 50 years I've tried every diet going, I think, and almost every one of them will make me lose weight - at least at the beginning. This includes such things as Weightwatchers, Slimming Club and the Mayo Clinic Diet.
High carb/low fat worked for me in the past (ie, as NHS recommended!), but it had to be very low calorie as well, 1000 cals or less, to make me lose weight, and was unsustainable.
It wasn't until I tried Atkins that I realised I was actually carb-intolerant. I lost loads of weight the first time I tried it (5 stone over 18 months) and my cholesterol and BP were the best ever. Also BGs - I wasn't diabetic then. I stuck to 30g carb daily, walked the dog, and have never felt so well in my life.
What with one thing and another I lapsed from Atkins and put the weight back. In April 2010 I was diagnosed with Type 2, and immediately went straight back on Atkins. I've lost 60lbs by now, and my BGs are hardly ever out of the non-diabetic range. My weight loss is slow because I do like my wine ! I can exercise very little now - certainly couldn't walk a dog - but I can still control my weight and my BGs if I put a bit of effort in. SUmmer is the worst - too much fruit!
Since having my own BG meter (my practice issue them, and strips on prescription, to every newly-diagnosed diabetic regardless of Type) and also having blood tests every 3 months, I have learned that my BGs can only tolerate up to about 50g carb daily. Above that and they start to rise; above that, and I put on weight.
So in my experience, every "weight loss" diet will work, at least at first. Whether I messed up my metabolism by all the dieting I will never know. If I'd stuck to high carb/low fat from my mid-20s, would I be sleek and lovely and non-diabetic now? I doubt it.
Janeecee, have you mentioned to your GP that a non-diabetic's BG reading, 2 hours after eating, should be below 8 mmol/l? That's the NHS figure, by the way. However, your diet contains too much carb for me to eat - it might be worth cutting back a little? and increasing the fat to compensate? Just a thought!
And no, I'm not paid by the Atkins Foundation! :lol: :lol: . My version of Atkins Induction is a Sticky Thread in the Low-carb section of the forum.
I don't know enough about Type 1 to make valid comments on the OP - though I wouldn't like to try it! Have you read Bernstein? His method of Type 1 control mainly by diet seems to work for some.
Viv 8)
High carb/low fat worked for me in the past (ie, as NHS recommended!), but it had to be very low calorie as well, 1000 cals or less, to make me lose weight, and was unsustainable.
It wasn't until I tried Atkins that I realised I was actually carb-intolerant. I lost loads of weight the first time I tried it (5 stone over 18 months) and my cholesterol and BP were the best ever. Also BGs - I wasn't diabetic then. I stuck to 30g carb daily, walked the dog, and have never felt so well in my life.
What with one thing and another I lapsed from Atkins and put the weight back. In April 2010 I was diagnosed with Type 2, and immediately went straight back on Atkins. I've lost 60lbs by now, and my BGs are hardly ever out of the non-diabetic range. My weight loss is slow because I do like my wine
! I can exercise very little now - certainly couldn't walk a dog - but I can still control my weight and my BGs if I put a bit of effort in. SUmmer is the worst - too much fruit!Since having my own BG meter (my practice issue them, and strips on prescription, to every newly-diagnosed diabetic regardless of Type) and also having blood tests every 3 months, I have learned that my BGs can only tolerate up to about 50g carb daily. Above that and they start to rise; above that, and I put on weight.
So in my experience, every "weight loss" diet will work, at least at first. Whether I messed up my metabolism by all the dieting I will never know. If I'd stuck to high carb/low fat from my mid-20s, would I be sleek and lovely and non-diabetic now? I doubt it.
Janeecee, have you mentioned to your GP that a non-diabetic's BG reading, 2 hours after eating, should be below 8 mmol/l? That's the NHS figure, by the way. However, your diet contains too much carb for me to eat - it might be worth cutting back a little? and increasing the fat to compensate? Just a thought!
And no, I'm not paid by the Atkins Foundation! :lol: :lol: . My version of Atkins Induction is a Sticky Thread in the Low-carb section of the forum.
I don't know enough about Type 1 to make valid comments on the OP - though I wouldn't like to try it! Have you read Bernstein? His method of Type 1 control mainly by diet seems to work for some.
Viv 8)
paul-1976
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viviennem said:
As a type 1 I follow such a regime(and I thinks some other T1's on here do too) and I have found it to be very successful and it has kept my HbA1c low and my injected daily dose fairly low. 8)
Paul
Vivienem, I'm a bit curious as to how you know how many carbs I eat. It's not as if I post what I eat on here. But anyways…I don't eat a lot of carbs. I was eating 80-90g per day on average and half of that from veg and my one portion of fruit per day, which is some sort of berry. Yesterday I had salmon with non-starchy veg and I was 7.2 at 1 hour and 6.0 at 2 hours. Strictly speaking, that's hardly non-diabetic numbers, and to be honest I've had better numbers eating small quantities of pasta at 1 and 2 hours, so I don't get it at all.
As for fat—perhaps I should make this a sticky —I cannot stand fatty foods, I can't digest fats easily. Even tinned mackerel is a bit heavy in the stomach for me. Being lactose intolerant I need to avoid cheese, cream, butter and all that stuff. The smell of bacon makes me want to puke, honest. For some folk it makes them hungry, but it has the opposite effect on me. Eating fatty foods makes me bilious.
I don't know what the answer is, and I don't know what stage I am at re beta cells etc, and whether there is any hope for restoring it, or whatever else. Nothing seems to be helping, as far as I can tell. When I've cut back on carbs my numbers have actually gone up.
I've never had a sugar habit and didn't eat much in the way of cakes and pastries etc, and with no weight to lose, all the advice dished out to prediabetics is of no use to me. I rarely touch alcohol, I think the last time I had a glass of wine was February, and before that it was Christmas. So, I have nothing to "give up". Even on Friday I ate only 850 kcal trying to keep the numbers down, and that isn't sustainable.
I don't get these GPs saying 9s and 10s at 2 hours is 'normal' but I will persevere with them.
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As for fat—perhaps I should make this a sticky —I cannot stand fatty foods, I can't digest fats easily. Even tinned mackerel is a bit heavy in the stomach for me. Being lactose intolerant I need to avoid cheese, cream, butter and all that stuff. The smell of bacon makes me want to puke, honest. For some folk it makes them hungry, but it has the opposite effect on me. Eating fatty foods makes me bilious.
I don't know what the answer is, and I don't know what stage I am at re beta cells etc, and whether there is any hope for restoring it, or whatever else. Nothing seems to be helping, as far as I can tell. When I've cut back on carbs my numbers have actually gone up.
I've never had a sugar habit and didn't eat much in the way of cakes and pastries etc, and with no weight to lose, all the advice dished out to prediabetics is of no use to me. I rarely touch alcohol, I think the last time I had a glass of wine was February, and before that it was Christmas. So, I have nothing to "give up". Even on Friday I ate only 850 kcal trying to keep the numbers down, and that isn't sustainable.
I don't get these GPs saying 9s and 10s at 2 hours is 'normal' but I will persevere with them.
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janeecee said:
Hi, I don't get hung up on carbs per day, etc. but rather how I feel. Today, all I've had is two pieces of chocolate whilst making the recipe and a pear. I can't see my calories coming anywhere near the 'norm'. I'll be lucky if they hit 1000-1200, but I feel absolutely fine, but, of course, one man's meat is another man's protein etc.
Janeecee posted: Vivienem, I'm a bit curious as to how you know how many carbs I eat. It's not as if I post what I eat on here.
Janeecee, I didn't mean to upset you and I hope I haven't. I was going by the one meal that you posted on here earlier, which contained both chickpeas and brown rice. I know you said they were both small portions and I believe you, but even a tablespoonful of each, eaten together, would spike me. But as I say, I'm carb intolerant.
I do know that some people can't tolerate fats, and definitely that Atkins doesn't suit everyone. Lactose intolerance must be a real pain!
As I said before, I didn't mean to cause any offence. Apologies if I did.
If you've told all the above to your various GPs and got nowhere, even with all your readings and food recorded in a diary to show them, in your place I would be pushing to see a consultant.
Sadly, diabetes isn't well covered in GP's basic training, and they tend to cover Type 1 rather than Type 2. In addition, the words "Diabetes Specialist GP" don't necessarily mean they know that much more about diabetes - just that they have responsibility for all the diabetics in the practice, and are the first point of communication. They do get extra training, I believe, but it's basic NHS training which is a tad out of date!
Good luck
Viv 8)
Janeecee, I didn't mean to upset you and I hope I haven't. I was going by the one meal that you posted on here earlier, which contained both chickpeas and brown rice. I know you said they were both small portions and I believe you, but even a tablespoonful of each, eaten together, would spike me. But as I say, I'm carb intolerant.
I do know that some people can't tolerate fats, and definitely that Atkins doesn't suit everyone. Lactose intolerance must be a real pain!
As I said before, I didn't mean to cause any offence. Apologies if I did.
If you've told all the above to your various GPs and got nowhere, even with all your readings and food recorded in a diary to show them, in your place I would be pushing to see a consultant.
Sadly, diabetes isn't well covered in GP's basic training, and they tend to cover Type 1 rather than Type 2. In addition, the words "Diabetes Specialist GP" don't necessarily mean they know that much more about diabetes - just that they have responsibility for all the diabetics in the practice, and are the first point of communication. They do get extra training, I believe, but it's basic NHS training which is a tad out of date!
Good luck
Viv 8)
viviennem said:
Dumb questions here ... surely a spike is normal? I have been led to believe that non-dabetics spike. Why do you avoid foods that spike you? What harm does spiking do to us?
Not a dumb question at all!
It seems that spiking does quite a lot of damage. Yes, everybody spikes, but it's the length of time that matters. By 2 hours after eating you should be back within the appropriate range. I work on less than 7.8, 2 hours after eating, which is supposed to be more beneficial than the "below 8.5" that is quoted for Type 2s.
Even short bursts of very high blood glucose does some damage to the small blood vessels. Mince pies are my worst - 11.2, 2 hours after eating one :shock: . So I don't eat them any more.
The problem with relying on an HbA1c to check your BG control is that the highs and lows cancel each other out over time - smooth the curve, so to speak - so you don't know exactly what's happening - and nor does the doctor!
It's interesting to check your blood reactions against a non-diabetic occasionally, if you don't mind changing the lancets (and if you can get a non-diabetic to co-operate!). Last time my brother came we had fish & chips (a little treat for me ). I had a handful of chips, cod in batter and mushy peas, and was 6.2, 2 hours after - very pleased with that.
He had about 5 times as many chips, with the same fish and mushy peas. 5.2, 2 hours after. That's what our BGs would be doing if our insulin response, whether production or resistance, was okay.
I eat chocolate sometimes, too. But no more than a couple of squares of 85% cocoa solids, which doesn't spike me.
In short, I try not to eat anything that will leave me over 7.8 at the 2 hour mark, except very, very occasionally.
Hope this helps!
Viv 8)
It seems that spiking does quite a lot of damage. Yes, everybody spikes, but it's the length of time that matters. By 2 hours after eating you should be back within the appropriate range. I work on less than 7.8, 2 hours after eating, which is supposed to be more beneficial than the "below 8.5" that is quoted for Type 2s.
Even short bursts of very high blood glucose does some damage to the small blood vessels. Mince pies are my worst - 11.2, 2 hours after eating one :shock: . So I don't eat them any more.
The problem with relying on an HbA1c to check your BG control is that the highs and lows cancel each other out over time - smooth the curve, so to speak - so you don't know exactly what's happening - and nor does the doctor!
It's interesting to check your blood reactions against a non-diabetic occasionally, if you don't mind changing the lancets (and if you can get a non-diabetic to co-operate!). Last time my brother came we had fish & chips (a little treat for me
). I had a handful of chips, cod in batter and mushy peas, and was 6.2, 2 hours after - very pleased with that.He had about 5 times as many chips, with the same fish and mushy peas. 5.2, 2 hours after. That's what our BGs would be doing if our insulin response, whether production or resistance, was okay.
I eat chocolate sometimes, too. But no more than a couple of squares of 85% cocoa solids, which doesn't spike me.
In short, I try not to eat anything that will leave me over 7.8 at the 2 hour mark, except very, very occasionally.
Hope this helps!
Viv 8)
viviennem said:Not a dumb question at all!
It seems that spiking does quite a lot of damage. Yes, everybody spikes, but it's the length of time that matters. By 2 hours after eating you should be back within the appropriate range. I work on less than 7.8, 2 hours after eating, which is supposed to be more beneficial than the "below 8.5" that is quoted for Type 2s.
Even short bursts of very high blood glucose does some damage to the small blood vessels. Mince pies are my worst - 11.2, 2 hours after eating one :shock: . So I don't eat them any more.
The problem with relying on an HbA1c to check your BG control is that the highs and lows cancel each other out over time - smooth the curve, so to speak - so you don't know exactly what's happening - and nor does the doctor!
It's interesting to check your blood reactions against a non-diabetic occasionally, if you don't mind changing the lancets (and if you can get a non-diabetic to co-operate!). Last time my brother came we had fish & chips (a little treat for me
He had about 5 times as many chips, with the same fish and mushy peas. 5.2, 2 hours after. That's what our BGs would be doing if our insulin response, whether production or resistance, was okay.
I eat chocolate sometimes, too. But no more than a couple of squares of 85% cocoa solids, which doesn't spike me.
In short, I try not to eat anything that will leave me over 7.8 at the 2 hour mark, except very, very occasionally.
Hope this helps!
Viv 8)
Thanks for that Vivienne ... very useful and comprehensive response. I will try testing my partner if I can persuade her to go through the 'trauma' of a finger prick or two!
Sorry to 'poke' but you seem to define a spike at +2:00? I've been defining my spike as the highest bG which, for me, is at +1:00. I'm fine at +2:00. So, am I at risk of damage if I peak at +1:00 but am back to normal at or before +2:00. Also, do you have a link to somewhere re the damage from spiking?
Yorksman
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gezzathorpe said:
Below is an idealised glucose response curve:
The speed of the insulin response, the amount of insulin produced and the insulin sensitivity all play a part. Hence non diabetics get a lower peak. The area under the three different curves reflects the the glucose levels in the blood plasma. This in turn allows more glucose to bind with the haemoglobin, the hba1c measure. Over the period of a day, the total area under a graph means there is considerably more glucose in the blood, despite it going up and down:
No problem, Vivienem. The chick pea curry was in May when I first started testing. Haven't eaten it since. I've still not figured out what I can eat and what suits me.
There's a lot of talk about BG levels being damaging, but what about high insulin levels that are a result of insulin resistance? Hyperinsulemia causes problems too, doesn't it? The problem with insulin resistance is that the cells won't take up glucose readily, so more and more insulin is released. We cannot measure what is going on like we can with BGs and glucometers, but surely excess insulin is equally damaging, so how would we overcome this?
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There's a lot of talk about BG levels being damaging, but what about high insulin levels that are a result of insulin resistance? Hyperinsulemia causes problems too, doesn't it? The problem with insulin resistance is that the cells won't take up glucose readily, so more and more insulin is released. We cannot measure what is going on like we can with BGs and glucometers, but surely excess insulin is equally damaging, so how would we overcome this?
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Yorksman
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janeecee said:
That's right, or so I am led to believe, and in turn that can then lead to diabetes.
It's nothing I have read up on but I understand there is literature in the public domain. There seem to be diets to control it too.
Wiki has a good introductory page on it with a large number of links to various papers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_resistance
but you are right to want to get it under control before it develops further.
Yorksman said:gezzathorpe said:
Below is an idealised glucose response curve:
The speed of the insulin response, the amount of insulin produced and the insulin sensitivity all play a part. Hence non diabetics get a lower peak. The area under the three different curves reflects the the glucose levels in the blood plasma. This in turn allows more glucose to bind with the haemoglobin, the hba1c measure. Over the period of a day, the total area under a graph means there is considerably more glucose in the blood, despite it going up and down:
Hi, I get the point that spikes and fasting levels are higher with diabetics according to the charts . The charts how that non-diabetics can also have spikes, so is it the 'spikyness' that causes damage or the period of persistently high bGs which is not shown in the charts for either diabetics or non-diabetics. And where is the evidence to show that the diabetic pattern on the charts is damaging?
Thanks, Yorksman. Unfortunately I am none the wiser as to how I can address my own insulin resistance, as I think that is what is going on. I am completely flummoxed when it come to strategy to deal with my situation. What works for some, or even many, doesn't seem to work for me.
I've given up on Taylor's fatty liver/fatty pancreas theory as applicable in my case. My unintentional weight loss hasn't had any impact on my BG levels. I learned that my BMI was 19.1 yesterday, and if I lost 4lb more I'd be clinically underweight. Not only that, I was in and out of ketosis between meals and even at bedtime yesterday, and that was with some carb consumption, so my body was still breaking down either fat or even worse, muscle protein and I felt so unwell and out of it. I had a no carb weekend and my BG levels were even higher than if I'd eaten carbs, so I wonder to what extent I am contributing to my own insulin resistance. I inadvertently put myself into some kind of starvation mode trying to keep the numbers down. In any case, I end up in the same place.
Anyway, all this experimenting and trying to control my BG is getting me nowhere. My last resort is adding small snacks between meals to prevent my body from eating itself and provide my brain with sufficient glucose. There is such a thing as physiological insulin resistance but I don't know if it applies to me, and I'm giving up on theories etc. I'm no longer looking for answers like the ND. In fact, I'm so glad I haven't done the ND because I'd be no better off had I reached this weight and then had to work out how to eat normal food instead of chemical shakes.
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I've given up on Taylor's fatty liver/fatty pancreas theory as applicable in my case. My unintentional weight loss hasn't had any impact on my BG levels. I learned that my BMI was 19.1 yesterday, and if I lost 4lb more I'd be clinically underweight. Not only that, I was in and out of ketosis between meals and even at bedtime yesterday, and that was with some carb consumption, so my body was still breaking down either fat or even worse, muscle protein and I felt so unwell and out of it. I had a no carb weekend and my BG levels were even higher than if I'd eaten carbs, so I wonder to what extent I am contributing to my own insulin resistance. I inadvertently put myself into some kind of starvation mode trying to keep the numbers down. In any case, I end up in the same place.
Anyway, all this experimenting and trying to control my BG is getting me nowhere. My last resort is adding small snacks between meals to prevent my body from eating itself and provide my brain with sufficient glucose. There is such a thing as physiological insulin resistance but I don't know if it applies to me, and I'm giving up on theories etc. I'm no longer looking for answers like the ND. In fact, I'm so glad I haven't done the ND because I'd be no better off had I reached this weight and then had to work out how to eat normal food instead of chemical shakes.
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lucylocket61
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It doesnt say in your profile what type of diabetic you are, but have you been tested in case you are a type 1.5 or something similar and the doctor is missing this?
paul-1976
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Janee...I'm in ketosis too BUT that's because of my diet BUT in the early days I used to show ketones due to lack of natural insulin and I felt AWFUL...if you're not type 1 or on a very low carb diet you shouldn't have any as far as I know..this rings alarm bells with me..doctors misdiagnosed me and my HbA1c levels weren't too bad either in the early days...if you were late onset type 1 then even carb cutting isn't enough and your BG levels increasing despite lowering carbs in the prescence of ketones seems a red flag warning to me anyway..hope you get to the bottom of this.
