Aaaarrrggghhh!!!!!! If one more person tells me to eat more carbs!

Totto · Feb 15, 2014

Before we had any meds for diabetes, metformin, insulin or any kind, it was diet controlled.
https://archive.org/stream/diabeticcookeryr00oppeiala#page/2/mode/2up

I was so surprised some years ago when a diabetic friend of mine came to visit. He was told by his DSN to eat a lot of bread! Now why should he do that? I never got an answer. He is t2 and on huge doses of insulin. While staying with us his bg fell and he could reduce the insulin substantially. I think he had been told to eat mostly carbs. He weighs above 100 kilo, is still gaining weight and have had two major heart attacks since.

I could strangle his DSN.

Harpar · Feb 15, 2014

What a fantastic book. Note breads etc. forbidden.

Daibell · Feb 15, 2014

Hi Catherine. This is not a criticism of you or other nurses, but at the higher levels of the NHS where the claim that evidence-based medicine is used for diabetes just isn't always true. There is no evidence that I'm aware of that the mantra 'have starchy carbs with every meal' is based on any evidence; same with the statins and low-fat recommendations. The 'evidence ' used is often based on very shaky data that doesn't stand-up to scientific examination but some in the NHS still profer it. I could quote the rather silly diabetes document by the Royal College of Physicians (or similar name) that said that low-carb couldn't be recommended as it wasn't proven to be safe yet the current Western diet that makes us all obese due to excess sugar is proven to be unsafe as we all know yet it is often considered a 'balanced, healthy diet'. That's not science; it's nonsense. BTW my DN in the local surgery used to work in the hospital diabetes clinic and is excellent as she has expertise in the subject and listens and discusses options.

FatGenes999 · Feb 15, 2014

Scandichic said:
Why the Scicilian? Are you of Scicilian extraction? I have Swedish, German, French and A bit of Spanish (if I really have to!) . Once muttered a lot of uncomlimentary remarks in Swedish under my breath in a lesson. Judging from the grin on the islandic kids face who was sitting near me, he understood. Oops. Very careful what I now say! lol.

Yes, I am partly of Sicilian extraction. Looks like you can take care of yourself quite well, though. Nothing better than venting in a different language!

cally · Feb 15, 2014

shane-1 said:
nurses do a wonderfull job considering the limited resources they get

Most of the diabetic patients I meet seem determined to eat what they like. Usually copious amounts of chocolate and Quality street bought in by their relatives!
Seriously, I work with mostly elderly people and am horrified by the type of diet most of them consume. We can only advise and are not allowed to refuse anyone biscuits and cake if that's what they want to eat.
I do try to advise them as I eat a lowish carb diet myself, but very few are willing to listen.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Yorksman · Feb 15, 2014

Scandichic said:
Once muttered a lot of uncomlimentary remarks in Swedish under my breath in a lesson. Judging from the grin on the islandic kids face who was sitting near me, he understood.

Ég er hneykslaður !!!

Yorksman · Feb 15, 2014

FatGenes999 said:
Yes, I am partly of Sicilian extraction.

Ahhh, il segreti della tavola di Montelbano

My favourite recipe at the moment from Sicily Unpacked, pasta con le sarde, senza sultantas, naturalmente,

Scandichic · Feb 15, 2014

Yorksman said:
Ég er hneykslaður !!!

Tyvärr kan jag inte isländska! Varför är du chokad?

FatGenes999 · Feb 16, 2014

Yorksman said:
Ahhh, il segreti della tavola di Montelbano

My favourite recipe at the moment from Sicily Unpacked, pasta con le sarde, senza sultantas, naturalmente,

Ah-h-h, buena fortuna con la pasta!
Yeah, I'm gonna miss all of these pasta dishes as I don't even want to get started. I would feel so deprived not being able to eat the amount I want. Even when I was on purely weight-loss diets I would occasionally pig-out on Italian dishes, because I knew I could just work off the extra pounds. Now, there is no getting around eating too much, so I just won't eat pasta at all.

I do plan on, however, maybe some chicken, and maybe eggplant, and having them a la parmigiana. I make my own sauce from scratch. I'm looking forward to making baked artichokes, too, with garlic, basil, egg, Parmesan and mozzarella cheese, and olive oil stuffing.

Mud Island Dweller · Feb 16, 2014

As from comments they refuse to discuss it or consider it for the most part so it isnt difficult it is impossiblle to hold an adult discussion with them.

The desmond course was for me a perfect xenophobic case of it in action.
l am looking forward to seeing my DN when possible sadly she is in hospital ...given it is the local one l hope she survives. l will see the dr on the 25th so see how xenophobic he is. Will be interesting he is a grumpy old git a bit like me so l should take bets on his attitude.

Daibell · Feb 16, 2014

Hi Brian. You may be right about different diets suiting different people for dieting, but for the main concern of diabetics i.e. blood sugar level then the science says that reducing your carbs will reduce blood sugar and some HCPs don't even get that and it's pretty basic. I gather it was the approach taken before the last war to handle diabetics and only changed post war with some very dubious papers published without much peer group review and then Group Think took over

Scandichic · Feb 16, 2014

Brian_H said:
I've just read through this thread, and I've read several others like it previously.
The problem I have with this thread and the other threads like it, is that it's difficult to know where each person is coming from in the "diabetic spectrum". By this I mean
- age
- how long diabetic
- type of diabetes
- meds regime
- BMI
- fat index
- daily activity
- amount of alcohol consumed

I suspect that the type of diet that each person has chosen, is in relation to the above factors

I can give 4 types of diet that I have been though in the 45 years of being diabetic:

1. a strictly controlled diet, certainly high in protein, from 1968 to 1974 (aged 12 to 18). In those days ready meals did not exist, mother's cooking was good quality. No alcohol, fit and active, probably a lean BMI and a lean fat index too
2. high carb, high fat, high alcohol, from 1974 to 2000, through university/girls/work/marriage/kids/etc/etc. By the end of that time I was still fit and active, but BMI would have been in the overweight category, and fat index would have been at least 25%.
3. high carb, high fat, no alcohol (just decided alcohol was pointless), from 2000 to 2008. BMI reached 30.
4. medium carb, medium fat, from 2008 onwards, mainly due to change in insulin regime, reduced activity, reduced awareness of night-time hypos. BMI is down to 22, but fat index in 1 must have been better than now.

Note that in all that time, whenver I had Hb tests, it was within target (HbA1 target was 8%, HbA1c was originally 7% IIRC).

I am tempted by LCHF, but, I suspect that it won't help reduce my fat index, whereas medium carb and high protein would benefit me more, in an attempt to get back to things as they were in 1.

With all that spectrum in mind, it cannot be easy for health professionals to give advice.

edit: btw if you want to calculate your fat index, use this link .....you could be shocked.
Using one meter I get 20%, using another meter I get 23%, and using that link I get 23%. With a BMI of 22, it's not brilliant is it.
IMO this is the most important index in your health, not weight, not BMI, not even HbA1c.: and your fat index ought to reflect the success of your diet. Note that my fat index is coming down.

Ok. Early forties, BMI 36 officially diagnosed: 3 weeks diet LCHF weight loss 9lbs weight - Need to lose at least 3 stones more. T2.
Personal reasons for following LCHF: read everything Uk diabetes recommended and felt that portion control was not a good idea. Started LCHF lost weight and bs went from 13 gradually down to 5.3-6.5 pre prandial and 5.5 - 7 post prandial. If you want to know about LCHF try Dietdoctor . Hope this helps.

Scandichic · Feb 16, 2014

Brian_H said:
Yes it helps hugely, I can see why you want low carbs

Just a thought! Husband non diabetic but follows diet. Me needs to lose 2 stone and has already lost 8lbs. His BMI is within recommended norm!

Yorksman · Feb 16, 2014

Scandichic said:
Tyvärr kan jag inte isländska! Varför är du chokad?

Muttering uncomplimentary remarks in lessons - tut tut.

I have "hneykslaður" as shocked as in surprised. My extremely limited knowledge of the scandinavian langagues is derived from runestones in the younger futhark, a book on old norse and a CD on modern icelandic.

Mud Island Dweller · Feb 16, 2014

I don't see the problem with LCHF followed by family members. At the end of the day there is so many eating plans out there that are weird and wacky. At least this has a logic to it. My hub follows it now but has food outside my parameters as he doesn't need to be so strict but is feeling healthier. In other words following but adapting slightly. At least it is all good healthy food makes life easier for meal planning, and please ignore bmi it is widely being discredited. as it takes overall instead of muscle and fat content. As usuall the nhs holds tight on like a drowning man to a straw.

Scandichic · Feb 16, 2014

Yorksman said:
Muttering uncomplimentary remarks in lessons - tut tut.

I have "hneykslaður" as shocked as in surprised. My extremely limited knowledge of the scandinavian langagues is derived from runestones in the younger futhark, a book on old norse and a CD on modern icelandic.

I am impressed! I have no Icelandic whatsoever. What started the interest in Icelandic and Old Norse? I generally understand Norwegian. Sometimes I understand spoken Danish and other times I struggle. Can usually understand in written format.

Yorksman · Feb 16, 2014

FatGenes999 said:
I do plan on, however, maybe some chicken, and maybe eggplant, and having them a la parmigiana. I make my own sauce from scratch. I'm looking forward to making baked artichokes, too, with garlic, basil, egg, Parmesan and mozzarella cheese, and olive oil stuffing.

I once had a slow cooked Mallorcan dish, it had been 24 hours in the oven at a very low temperature and although it looked solid, it was quite moist and tasted wonderful. I think it was based on a Mallorcan Tumbet but either with some lamb or some chicken in it. It was quite simply delicious and I wish I could remember what it was. It was one of these rustic country dished where there is something on the go all the time because no one ever knew when the workers would return from the fields so mealtimes could never be exact. These types of dish are fantastic for type 2 diabetics.

Scandichic · Feb 16, 2014

Brian_H said:
But I never had a problem on high carbs (with high fats). I've had no side effects at all in 45 years of being T1 (apart from possible mild gastroparesis, but the latter can be brought on by gastric flu).
At age 18 my weight was 12 stone.
At age 24 my weight was 13 stone.
At age 34 my weight was 14 stone.
At age 44 my weight was 15 stone.
At age 50 my weight was 16 stone.
That gradual weight increase was due to slightly high calorie intake (high carb, high fat). But HbA1 and HbA1c were ok.
In order to lose weight (now back to almost 12 stone), I reduced both carbs and fat. Medium carb, medium fat. Slowly swapping to medium carb with as much protein as possible. The problem is my relatively high fat index of 20 to 23%, which is too much IMO at only 12 stone. It's that relatively high fat index, along with slowish stomach emptying, which is causing some difficulty with control, not carb intake.

I cannot comment on T2, I can see why T2 needs low carb. But T1 does not, in my experience, need low carb. It's not carbs that cause problems in non-diabetics and T1 diabetics, it's high calorie, leading to high body fat index.

I think the title LCHF is a bit misleading. My understanding is that your body can get its energy from carbs or fat. If you eat large quantities of both then you are in dange

Scandichic · Feb 16, 2014

Scandichic said:
I think the title LCHF is a bit misleading. My understanding is that your body can get its energy from carbs or fat. If you eat large quantities of both then you are in dange

To carry on hit wrong &)55;( key! If you eat large quantities of fat and carb you become too fat. If you eat low carb then you need some fat to make you feel full. You then lose weight as your body burns fat. For me as a type 2 I am trying to bring bs down and lose weight. This has happened so far. Why not read diet doctor, give LCHF a go and see what happens? Good luck, anyway!

Yorksman · Feb 16, 2014

Scandichic said:
What started the interest in Icelandic and Old Norse?

It started with my silly quest to show that the Skarthi on the Hedeby runestone was the same Skarthi named in Skardaborg, ie Scarborough.

Sveinn konungr setti stein eptir Skarða, sinn heimþega, er var farinn vestr, en núB varð dauðr at Heiðabý

http://www.cpt.co.uk/skarthi

Aaaarrrggghhh!!!!!! If one more person tells me to eat more carbs!

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