You know perfectly well what I mean. It's not the 'specific' term "carboholic" that's at question. Elitism is a 'mentality' which has 'certain' verbiage. Do a search for phraseology containing - 'carbs', 'bad' 'culprit', etc. But let me not 'ignite' anything new.borofergie said:
Accepting diabetes and contentment
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Guys - don't let this go any further.
The forum's position on terms like carb addict is clear. They are not to be used with reference to another person. Use them about yourself if you must, although we'd prefer you not to.
Feel free to advocate your own way of managing diabetes without denigrating anyone else's.
The forum's position on terms like carb addict is clear. They are not to be used with reference to another person. Use them about yourself if you must, although we'd prefer you not to.
Feel free to advocate your own way of managing diabetes without denigrating anyone else's.
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NewdestinyX said:
Grant,
Having reread your post a few more times I can see that I got the wrong impression from my first reading and you are sharing a similar view, therefore please accept my apologies!
As RussG says the situation is being monitored and I am assured that such future conduct will not be tolerated on the forum.
Nigel
Etty
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NewdestinyX said:
I see we have graduated from extremists to latent killers due to the stress of our <50g/d low carb diet! This is the topsy-turvy logic of starchy carbs. Doing without them is so detrimental to mental and physical health, that any alternative is better-- taking drugs, injecting insulin, high mileage biking. Yes, cycling 19 kilometres 5 times a week is better. (Now there's a stress that could turn one into a killer.)
Is it really so difficult to imagine scrambled eggs for breakfast, cheese salad for lunch, roast chicken and 2 veg for dinner?
As I wrote earlier in this recent thread: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=23420#p213082NewdestinyX said:
I stand behind that statement... and as for my myopic focus on BGs, I have tested maybe twice this week so far... what about you? My latest A1c was 6.2% :shock: and I am OK with that... any tighter control is simply not worth the effort for me right now... I have a life!pianoman said:
As Russ very sagely put it
Me too, Pianoman. Okay, a sandwich is convenient, fish and chips is nice sometimes, curry with rice instead of cauliflower - but I eat all these on occasion if I want to, even now.
And if my diabetes was miraculously "cured", I would still eat based on Atkins Induction (rather than say "low-carb) because it's the best thing I know, for me personally, to control my weight. And as I'm now retired, with a relatively stress-free life, I have no reason to comfort-eat - which is what I have always used carbs for.
So (going back to the thread) that's why I can say I'm living contentedly with my diabetes, because it hardly puts me out at all!
Viv 8)
I have adopted a 'live and let live' posture in my life with D. It's very rarely those of us who 'moderate' that judge those who've chosen differently. It's almost always those who are 'maybe a little overconfident and zealous about their extreme limitation of carbs that can feel challenged when they're confronted with those of us who get the same results (MBG and A1c-wise) 'without' the severe limitation. And some are so ready to dismiss the fact that no medical organization on the planet espouses or supports the idea that a <50g/carbs a day regimen is healthy for a lifetime. That fact alone (that it's the medical "establishment" saying it) would push some 'follower' toward the super low carb approach (as many believe in baseless conspiracy theories).
I just tire of all the extreme low carb rhetoric and elitist judging I read from super low carb enthusiasts here and other places almost daily. Rarely is the question asked on these forums -- "Hey, what do YOU think you CAN do to control your D - and stay consistent with that approach?". What a great 'dialogue' that would start. If even one 'ardent lo carber' would approach a newbie with 'that type' of open question I think I'd be very much more impressed than I am with most of those who 'judge' and tell people how they 'must eat' to stay 'healthy'. And what's worse is that they portray it as 'easy' - or not 'depriving' in essence. That borders on false advertising to me. :shock: In fairness there ARE several ardent very lo carbers here that do NOT judge and present a balanced view point leaving room for others to 'choose'. Thanks, Viv! And others..
The moderators asked for the 'posturing to stop' in this thread - I've been quiet for days- but the last 6 messages have tried to 'egg it on'.
Live and let live, friends. You do NOT know, better than 'I' do, how to control my disease. Neither do I know best for you nor do I ever try to tell you that - but some are 'always' trying to cram their way down other's throats. It gets pretty tiresome watching it. And it's interesting how those of us who get great results 'without' the severe restricting of carbs seem to really 'bug' the others.
And to the person who implied insulin is a drug therapy-- please do a little more studying as you're passing on inaccurate and simplistic info there. It could be misunderstood and potentially needlessly create fear for someone.
And by the way -- I eat scrambled eggs for breakfast most days, a salad for lunch, a meat and two vegetables for most dinners. I just don't stay clear of natural starches and complex carbs because I don't need to to achieve great results.
And I love my exercise regimen and am arguably way more 'heart healthy' now at close to 50 than I was at 25-30. My resting heart rate is about 60 and I can barely get my heart rate over 130 even while vigorously exercising and still about 16kg to go in weight loss. My 'regimen' speaks for itself. But I am surely open to acknowledging that 'other's' regimens are working well for them too. Again it's not those of us who 'moderate carbs' that tend to have a problem with those that strictly limit them. It's almost always the other way around.
I just tire of all the extreme low carb rhetoric and elitist judging I read from super low carb enthusiasts here and other places almost daily. Rarely is the question asked on these forums -- "Hey, what do YOU think you CAN do to control your D - and stay consistent with that approach?". What a great 'dialogue' that would start. If even one 'ardent lo carber' would approach a newbie with 'that type' of open question I think I'd be very much more impressed than I am with most of those who 'judge' and tell people how they 'must eat' to stay 'healthy'. And what's worse is that they portray it as 'easy' - or not 'depriving' in essence. That borders on false advertising to me. :shock: In fairness there ARE several ardent very lo carbers here that do NOT judge and present a balanced view point leaving room for others to 'choose'. Thanks, Viv!
And others.. The moderators asked for the 'posturing to stop' in this thread - I've been quiet for days- but the last 6 messages have tried to 'egg it on'.
Live and let live, friends. You do NOT know, better than 'I' do, how to control my disease. Neither do I know best for you nor do I ever try to tell you that - but some are 'always' trying to cram their way down other's throats. It gets pretty tiresome watching it. And it's interesting how those of us who get great results 'without' the severe restricting of carbs seem to really 'bug' the others.
And to the person who implied insulin is a drug therapy-- please do a little more studying as you're passing on inaccurate and simplistic info there. It could be misunderstood and potentially needlessly create fear for someone.
And by the way -- I eat scrambled eggs for breakfast most days, a salad for lunch, a meat and two vegetables for most dinners. I just don't stay clear of natural starches and complex carbs because I don't need to to achieve great results.
And I love my exercise regimen and am arguably way more 'heart healthy' now at close to 50 than I was at 25-30. My resting heart rate is about 60 and I can barely get my heart rate over 130 even while vigorously exercising and still about 16kg to go in weight loss. My 'regimen' speaks for itself. But I am surely open to acknowledging that 'other's' regimens are working well for them too. Again it's not those of us who 'moderate carbs' that tend to have a problem with those that strictly limit them. It's almost always the other way around.
phoenix
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Almost seven years ago I was in hospital. I had lost a huge amount of weight in the previous months and the day before had had breathing difficulties when I tried to ride my bike. I was put immediately onto an insulin pump and was about to undergo test on every organ from heart to womb. A huge shock for someone whose only visits to the doctor and hospital were when I was pregnant.
Sometime during the next ten days I was told that I had T1 and would have to inject insulin several times a day for life. I'd known a few T1s and it worried me, restrictive, regimented regimes with set amounts of food. I recalled the child never allowed to eat a slice of birthday cake or go on school trips, the husband of a colleague who had frequent serious hypos ;the paramedics a frequent occurance. I remebered the 16 year old who wanted to be a dancer but was in and out of hospital with DKA
Fortunately my fears were unfounded, things have moved on. I was fortunate to read and be told that diabetes was not the end of things and that I could still do anything I wanted . On top of that I was already feeling better than I had for a very long time. I resolved to learn about my condition and to run a marathon, just to show that I could ( no stress, it was a challenge to myself).
I took advice from the dietitian, who advised balanced meals with low gi starches, I saw her for an hour a day in hospital. She taught me to count carbs (a fixed amount at the time) The meals in hospital were ordered on this prinicple, and my glucose levels soon came under control.
After hospital I read lots and joined forums. I taught myself to adjust my insulin according to what I ate, so moved from the rather restrictive regime I started on.
I eat a fair number of carbs but also have an active lifestyle and having regained some of the weight loss prior to diagnosis have remained weight stable. (if I put on a couple of kilos, I cut back all food a bit for a while, just as I did before diagnosis)
I don't consider insulin as a drug, it is a replacement for a hormone missing in my body. It is a lifesaver. Without it I would become very ill and eventually die. Possibly, I could live on a starvation diet for a while but not for long, and in the meantime would have no quality of life.
I ran that marathon and others since (I'm now 59 so not a young athlete). I enjoy my life, I don't do the mileage necessary for a marathon all the time, but I am active with walking , shorter runs, gardening and cycling and at this time of year I'm lucky enough to be able to swim daily.
I'm content and healthy, my HbA1c, measured last week was 5.7%, kidney function and lipids were fine (good HDL) I eat a varied diet of mainly natural produce including all food groups, about 40-45% of my diet is carbs (from dairy, starches, fruit and veg... I count them all) Occasionally, if I've been very active, or if I'm with friends I can eat the odd cake or piece of pizza. I don't crave them as I don't completely deny myself them, if absolutely necessary I'll run a mile on the treadmill or go for a walk to lower my BG (a 10 min swim has been known to lower my glucose level by 4 mmol.. for me exercise works)
I've a good life, the last two weeks I've been enjoying myself with my children and grandchildren. Castle visiting, biking , swimming and canoeing were all on the agenda. Oka few mild hypos but easily dealt with. We had a lovely time . I am content.
Sometime during the next ten days I was told that I had T1 and would have to inject insulin several times a day for life. I'd known a few T1s and it worried me, restrictive, regimented regimes with set amounts of food. I recalled the child never allowed to eat a slice of birthday cake or go on school trips, the husband of a colleague who had frequent serious hypos ;the paramedics a frequent occurance. I remebered the 16 year old who wanted to be a dancer but was in and out of hospital with DKA
Fortunately my fears were unfounded, things have moved on. I was fortunate to read and be told that diabetes was not the end of things and that I could still do anything I wanted . On top of that I was already feeling better than I had for a very long time. I resolved to learn about my condition and to run a marathon, just to show that I could ( no stress, it was a challenge to myself).
I took advice from the dietitian, who advised balanced meals with low gi starches, I saw her for an hour a day in hospital. She taught me to count carbs (a fixed amount at the time) The meals in hospital were ordered on this prinicple, and my glucose levels soon came under control.
After hospital I read lots and joined forums. I taught myself to adjust my insulin according to what I ate, so moved from the rather restrictive regime I started on.
I eat a fair number of carbs but also have an active lifestyle and having regained some of the weight loss prior to diagnosis have remained weight stable. (if I put on a couple of kilos, I cut back all food a bit for a while, just as I did before diagnosis)
I don't consider insulin as a drug, it is a replacement for a hormone missing in my body. It is a lifesaver. Without it I would become very ill and eventually die. Possibly, I could live on a starvation diet for a while but not for long, and in the meantime would have no quality of life.
I ran that marathon and others since (I'm now 59 so not a young athlete). I enjoy my life, I don't do the mileage necessary for a marathon all the time, but I am active with walking , shorter runs, gardening and cycling and at this time of year I'm lucky enough to be able to swim daily.
I'm content and healthy, my HbA1c, measured last week was 5.7%, kidney function and lipids were fine (good HDL) I eat a varied diet of mainly natural produce including all food groups, about 40-45% of my diet is carbs (from dairy, starches, fruit and veg... I count them all) Occasionally, if I've been very active, or if I'm with friends I can eat the odd cake or piece of pizza. I don't crave them as I don't completely deny myself them, if absolutely necessary I'll run a mile on the treadmill or go for a walk to lower my BG (a 10 min swim has been known to lower my glucose level by 4 mmol.. for me exercise works)
I've a good life, the last two weeks I've been enjoying myself with my children and grandchildren. Castle visiting, biking , swimming and canoeing were all on the agenda. Oka few mild hypos but easily dealt with. We had a lovely time . I am content.
Thank you very much for sharing that phoenix -- you had quite a journey along the way, so I am glad to hear all is well for you and your family... I think it is fantastic when we can set diabetes aside and simply enjoy the truly important things in life
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You are of course right that for a person with Type 1, injected insulin is a necessary hormone replacement -- the comments I made in another recent thread were specifically about its use for a person with Type 2...
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You are of course right that for a person with Type 1, injected insulin is a necessary hormone replacement -- the comments I made in another recent thread were specifically about its use for a person with Type 2...
Not sure what you're construing my words to say there - but I do have a problem with people who 'preach' "strictly limiting carbs" as the 'only efficient or effective way' to manage T2D. It's the judgment in the tone of the posts that's palpable and the most divisive thing on diabetic forums. To be honest I don't even really understand the 'high horse' attitude by many on your side of the issue -but- I do understand passion about something that works for you.. so we'd align there. The reason I speak up with the 'passion' and, I apologize, sometimes 'more aggressively toned' responses or posturing is because of the 'judgement' and lack of balanced sharing from the ultra low carbers.Etty said:
You can always take the 'temperature' of a diabetic forum by reading the 'Introductions' sub forums where all the newbies post. And read the 'initial advice' they get. This place is warmer than most I've visited and wonderful empathetic salutations abound. But the 'singularity' of 'approach' to keeping BG levels under control (ultra low carbing mantra) very quickly presents itself in those threads and other 'Ask a Question' threads and eventually 'judgment' will arise against people who 'dare to stray' from the 'low carb way'. I just long for a 'balanced' presentation to newbies. Because over-zealous extreme low carb advice was the only input I got when first diagnosed and it just didn't work for me - either for peace of mind, or BG level control. It failed me on all levels. If I'd known then what I know now I'd have been so much more healthy and had a better quality of life in my transition to better eating post diagnosis. I want to make sure no newbies have to go through what I did and learn that ultra lo carbing is only one 'choice' - and not even the necessarily the 'best' choice for them.
Again - this place is very good in general and the moderators do a great job of allowing for 'all perspectives to be 'allowed to be' represented. And that's so 'refreshing'. You'd be surprised how many of the large Diabetes forums are 'run by' ultra lo carbers themselves who show bias in their moderation. But there are still many here ttoo who seem to want to 'silence' more moderate approaches. So - I will persist, as respectfully as I can (unless attacked) along with others who see moderation as healthier in the long run.
Where are you seeing these judgmental posts? Examples please because I don't know what the heck you are talking about... you are the only one I read as "preaching".
Perhaps you could also provide examples of your many posts to newly diagnosed here... offering them support, encouragement and you approach to BG control?
Perhaps you could also provide examples of your many posts to newly diagnosed here... offering them support, encouragement and you approach to BG control?
I've addressed them one by one - thread by thread, Pianoman. Just keep reading. In this thread alone I've dealt with them one by one. In the 'I Don't Get It' thread the posturing and judgement are abounding. People who judge are the last to see it, Pianoman, and they think that just because they don't use certain exact words that there's not then palpable judgment in their tone. Yes, writing 'CAN' have 'tone'. Do you think people who read our posts, by way of example, conclude that we're compadres? On the same page? Are we coming out and SAYING there's no love lost between us? No. Of course not. But is it evident? Sure. How? -- tone.pianoman said:
It's the judging 'tone' I refer to, Pianoman.
Where??? I have also read those threads and do not see what you claim. Perhaps it is all about your perception and you are projecting... after all you are the one using such divisive terms as "on your side of the issue" ... why do there have to be sides?!? Surely we are all in this thing together.NewdestinyX said:
Once again you have clearly missed the memo: Advocate your own method, by all means, but not at the expense of anyone else's. ... tell us about what works for you BUT please do so without trying to impress upon us why you think everyone else's approach is wrong.
But you can't judge 'tone' from a post, Grant, as you well know, being an experienced poster. That's why it's important to make yourself clear, and to use emoticons as appropriate. Your own tone can come across as extremely judgemental sometimes, on a first quick read-through, though I'm sure you don't mean it as it sounds. I don't think you mean to, but sometimes your posts read as if you think you're the only one who knows anything! And that comment is not meant as an attack on you, it's constructive criticism :wink:
As far as greeting newbies is concerned - I don't think the Info for Newbies, with which Daisy1 and/or the other moderators greet all newcomers, pushes a low-carbohydrate diet. It specifically states it does not - just suggests controlling carb intake.
Many of the 'arguments' between pro-low-carb and others come from a long time of knowing each other through posting on here. The moderators do their best to keep things friendly - and do a good job in my opinion.
Viv 8)
As far as greeting newbies is concerned - I don't think the Info for Newbies, with which Daisy1 and/or the other moderators greet all newcomers, pushes a low-carbohydrate diet. It specifically states it does not - just suggests controlling carb intake.
Many of the 'arguments' between pro-low-carb and others come from a long time of knowing each other through posting on here. The moderators do their best to keep things friendly - and do a good job in my opinion.
Viv 8)
No. Projection isn't possible if you never do the thing you're accusing. I don't judge or push my way on people. I 'represent it' and 'push back' on people who put down my choices.pianoman said:
There are divisions, pianoman. There just are. And there 'are' sides.
If the judging tone didn't exist I would agree with you. Sadly, though, it does.
This statement breaks forum rule and I reported it.
I haven't missed anything. I tell what works about my choices all the time here and I never denegrate another person's choice. I DO however, and will continue, to challenge 'ideas' about regimens and what science says about the different regimens. A forum is a place for exchange and 'comparison' of ideas. Ideas are fair game. Judging 'people' for their choices and telling them they are 'hurting themselves' for choosing a certain way is wrong. Terms like 'addicted to carbs' and characterizing carbs themselves as 'inherently addictive' abound all over this and other forums. That's a totally judgmental statement (and scientifically inaccurate to boot) and is 'liberally used' at this and other D forums. Just search for the words 'carb' and 'addict' or 'addictive' and you'll read post after post of this 'judging tone' I refer to.
Sorry to disagree, Viv, but you can. Very much so. In fact its' ALL about tone. There would be NO 'tiffs' on these forums if it weren't for 'tone issues' and 'postures' that are clear from 'tone'. Here are the 'off limits' words/phrases if you don't want to come off judgmental in tone against those who don't lo carb:viviennem said:
carbolholic
addictive .. carbs
carb addict
why....want to eat carbs
just eliminate carbs
..can't control BG levels without limiting carbs...
,etc, etc, etc..
Versions on those themes abound all over this forum and such phraseology is 'inherently judgmental (and often 'terribly inaccurate' to boot).
I'm never judging about a person's choice, Viv. I make that caveat in my writing all the time. I'm very careful with that and very clear. I RESPECT CHOICES!! Let's not make a moral equivalence of 'posturing against judgmentalism and elitism for a particular approach' with 'judging an particular person's approach'. They are two very different things. The only time I get 'indignant' is when people begin to 'judge' mine and other's approach to the non-very-lo carb way. And to THAT -- I do INDEED judge 'that TONE' in others to be not good for the forum ethos. And will speak right up. Judging a person's comments or attitudes to be 'bad behavior' or even judging for yourself (silently) that a certain approach wouldn't be good for you-- those are very different than judging the people themselves and their choices. Agreed? I would defy anyone here to go find a post where I 'judged a person or their personal choice. I hate when it's done to me and I don't do it. Never will.
Agreed - things are way better here than some other places. Thanks for your input, Viv.
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