Anyone know anything about ketones NOT caused by high blood sugar?

[Catsymoo]

Hi guys, I posted here a few days ago about stomach issues. I've been to two doctors as I am nauseous with no appetite and my energy feels sapped as soon as I eat, and I have a dull ache in the middle of my abdomen.

The first doctor gave me some PPI to reduce stomach acid but I'm still not eating much as a few bites makes me really nauseous and I get so tired and sleepy that I can barely move. I knew something was very wrong so I called 111 several times the last 2 days and got seen today by an out of hours GP. She tested my urine and found ketones of 2.0. Obviously from my diagnosis 5 years ago I know what ketones are and why they form when your sugar is too high. My blood sugars have not been particularly high because I've not been eating. I've halved my Lantus and barely needed my Novorapid. My sugars have been hovering between 6 and 9, but I'm so terrified of having a hypo right now that I would rather my sugars be a little bit high than too low and not be able to eat. The doctor I saw today thinks I might have a stomach ulcer which isn't concern because I'm already on Omeprazole to reduce acid and heal it. What she was worried about was my inability to eat and thus I am assuming my body is in starvation mode with ketones that high without blood sugars being over 15 at any time.

I've been given some anti sickness meds and they seem to have worked as I've just had half a sandwich and some smoothie without wanting to throw up after 3 bites. Just wondering if anyone knows how long it takes for ketones to disappear that are not caused by blood glucose? The ketones seem to be what is making me feel so lethargic as I remember this slow, unwell feeling from my diagnosis. (My ketones were off the chart 4+). They've said if my blood sugars go into the 20s, or if I'm not ''winning'' by tomorrow that I need to go back immediately and possibly be admitted into the hospital.

 

[Deleted Account]

Ketones are caused by our body breaking down muscle and fat to produce energy.
There are a number of reasons why this happens. For example, if you do not have enough insulin to break down the glucose in your blood or because you don’t eat enough carbs to break down into glucose. Joe Simpson, the guy in Touching the Void who had the near fatal fall in the Andes, suffered from ketones ... not because his BG was too high but because his body had not glucose to break down.

 

[Scott-C]

I wouldn't worry about it too much @Catsymoo . If you're not eating that much, your body still needs energy from somewhere, so it'll start breaking down fat reserves, and ketones are produced as a result of that. It would only be a problem if your bg was sky high too, and you've got that covered fine.

 

[Catsymoo]

Thanks guys. The highest reading I've had was 14.9, and some of the ketones may be due to that, but not most. Ketones do make you feel horrible, right? This afternoon I could barely walk or keep my head up in the hospital waiting room. The anti sickness meds seemed to have worked wonders for me and I feel so much better now than I did earlier. Fingers crossed this is the answer and I don't have to have any appointments or tests over Xmas.

 

[Daibell]

Thanks guys. The highest reading I've had was 14.9, and some of the ketones may be due to that, but not most. Ketones do make you feel horrible, right? This afternoon I could barely walk or keep my head up in the hospital waiting room. The anti sickness meds seemed to have worked wonders for me and I feel so much better now than I did earlier. Fingers crossed this is the answer and I don't have to have any appointments or tests over Xmas.

I don't think ketones necessarily make you feel unwell. Athletes regularly burn fat and produce ketones. They should only make you feel unwell if accompanied by high bs i.e. DKA or if excessive

 

[Catsymoo]

I don't think ketones necessarily make you feel unwell. Athletes regularly burn fat and produce ketones. They should only make you feel unwell if accompanied by high bs i.e. DKA or if excessive

Ah, the doctor said I probably feel horrible because of ketones in the short term and the fact I've barely eaten anything in a week. I felt awful in the waiting room. I felt so slow and like the life had been sapped out of me, shortly after I ate.

 

[nosweets]

Hi, yes they found ketones in my urine but it is to be expected as I have started a ketogenic diet and am taking zero carbs. I dont make enough insulin to digest the carbs. So I am on zero carbs. I find that I have enough energy just burning fat so I am taking some good fats.such as coconut oil with my high fiber foods. You have to cut out all starchy food and count carbs. Have you tried removing the drugs and using a little coffee to cure the sick feeling. Also test your urine acid level. Some people claim that they cured their diabetes by drinking a couple of teaspoons of bicarb of soda in a glass of water every day. Some people claim that they cured their diabetes by taking two tablespoons of apple cider vinegar and lemon three times a day with a glass of water. some people use a combination of both. Anyway it takes time to work and may take six months or more.

 

[Catsymoo]

Hi, yes they found ketones in my urine but it is to be expected as I have started a ketogenic diet and am taking zero carbs. I dont make enough insulin to digest the carbs. So I am on zero carbs. I find that I have enough energy just burning fat so I am taking some good fats.such as coconut oil with my high fiber foods. You have to cut out all starchy food and count carbs. Have you tried removing the drugs and using a little coffee to cure the sick feeling. Also test your urine acid level. Some people claim that they cured their diabetes by drinking a couple of teaspoons of bicarb of soda in a glass of water every day. Some people claim that they cured their diabetes by taking two tablespoons of apple cider vinegar and lemon three times a day with a glass of water. some people use a combination of both. Anyway it takes time to work and may take six months or more.

Hi I don't mean to sound rude, but my post is not about diabetes. I'm type 1 but I have a stomach ulcer and have ketones because I feel too sick to eat. While I appreciate your lifestyle, I feel that you didn't read my post properly and are pushing things on me without actually listening to what I was saying. I am not TRYING to lose weight, nor am I interested in a ketogenic diet as I personally think it's dangerous. I'm sick and physically cannot eat ANYTHING because of an ulcer and just wanted to know if ketones with normal sugars are concerning short term. If the cure for type 1 diabetes was as simple as a glass of lemon or vinegar, I'm sure none of us would be suffering with this lifelong illness.

 

[nosweets]

I am so sorry I did not know that you have the incurable type of diabetes. So you are doomed to suffer forever. How sad!!!
I thought that antibiotics are the cure for stomach ulcers so it is strange that you were not given these. In addition taking bicarb of soda may help the acid problem.

 

[Catsymoo]

I am so sorry I did not know that you have the incurable type of diabetes. So you are doomed to suffer forever. How sad!!!
I thought that antibiotics are the cure for stomach ulcers so it is strange that you were not given these. In addition taking bicarb of soda may help the acid problem.

I think they only give the antibiotics if a bacteria causes it and it returns after them giving a course of antacids so they investigate the cause. (NHS tries to save money afterall). Being type 1 does suck, but I mostly live a full, normal life without suffering.

 

[EllieM]

Ah, the doctor said I probably feel horrible because of ketones in the short term and the fact I've barely eaten anything in a week. I felt awful in the waiting room. I felt so slow and like the life had been sapped out of me, shortly after I ate.

This sounds right to me. The keto folk talk about feeling sick when they first start that diet so it makes sense that you'd feel sick through going on a keto diet involuntarily. (Plus I tend to believe doctors unless I've got a good reason not to.) I agree that being unable to eat with Type 1 is horrible - adding potential hypos to feeling nauseous is no fun. Hope you feel better soon.

 

[catapillar]

I am so sorry I did not know that you have the incurable type of diabetes. So you are doomed to suffer forever. How sad!!!

I find this apology incredibly offensive. I am not "doomed to suffer forever". I'm perfectly capable of living a normal life without any suffering. Can you maybe think about your audience when you are writing please.

 

[Scott-C]

So you are doomed to suffer forever. How sad!!!

@catapillar beat me to it. I was just about to post this:

That's one of the most insulting things I've ever read on this website. T1s like me and the OP are not doomed to suffer for ever - we're actually pretty damned lucky that we were diagnosed after the discovery of insulin, get it free on the NHS, and live full and happy lifes because of it, with the occasional insulin/carb tweak to lower or raise bg as needs accords. It can be a bit of a grind at times, and hypos can be scary, but framing it as "doomed to suffer forever" is complete and utter nonsense.

 

[Catsymoo]

@catapillar beat me to it. I was just about to post this:

That's one of the most insulting things I've ever read on this website. T1s like me and the OP are not doomed to suffer for ever - we're actually pretty damned lucky that we were diagnosed after the discovery of insulin, get it free on the NHS, and live full and happy lifes because of it, with the occasional insulin/carb tweak to lower or raise bg as needs accords. It can be a bit of a grind at times, and hypos can be scary, but framing it as "doomed to suffer forever" is complete and utter nonsense.

Yeah.. it comes across a bit sarcastic.

In other news the anti sick meds are such a god send right now. I've just got my appetite back to the point where I wanna eat the entire house and it feels so good.

 

[nosweets]

I am sorry I did not say anything that would ofend anyone intelligent !!!. If you read my post which I think you did not and thought a bit I said my body is not making insulin, so you will have to think about it. I feel that I am living a full happy life not having to take insulin and be in constant danger of hypos and losing my license or increased insurance etc etc. Who wants to inject themselves with insulin sometimes many times a day. So it is sad. You'll die if you don't so keep on taking the insulin so its best to keep your lifestyle. I just tried to tell you that I am on a ketogenic diet and the body adjusts itself to burn fat. If the body is storing fat it must be there for some reason. possibly as a store of energy that it broken down by ketosis when you cant take carbs.

 

[catapillar]

I am sorry I did not say anything that would ofend anyone intelligent !!!. If you read my post which I think you did not and thought a bit I said my body is not making insulin, so you will have to think about it. I feel that I am living a full happy life not having to take insulin and be in constant danger of hypos and losing my license or increased insurance etc etc. Who wants to inject themselves with insulin sometimes many times a day. So it is sad. You'll die if you don't so keep on taking the insulin so its best to keep your lifestyle. I just tried to tell you that I am on a ketogenic diet and the body adjusts itself to burn fat. If the body is storing fat it must be there for some reason. possibly as a store of energy that it broken down by ketosis when you cant take carbs.

Well now, I'm offended about your comments on my intelligence, which frankly are just rude. It is also simply rude to imply that someone injecting insulin is not living a full happy life.



I'm off to find the ignore button...

 

[Indy51]

@Catsymoo - without wishing to sound alarmist, have you looked at the symptoms for gastroparesis? The pain and nausea could be symptomatic, I believe.

 

[Scott-C]

Yeah.. it comes across a bit sarcastic.

It's just the time of year. Non-insulin users are looking forward to xmas cheese and crackers and then realising that whole show isn't that great without the crackers.

Meanwhile, we'll have a few cunning plans on the side lines about how to neck some brie on Jacobs cream crackers without dying....

 

[Scott-C]

I am sorry I did not say anything that would ofend anyone intelligent !!!. If you read my post which I think you did not and thought a bit I said my body is not making insulin, so you will have to think about it. I feel that I am living a full happy life not having to take insulin and be in constant danger of hypos and losing my license or increased insurance etc etc. Who wants to inject themselves with insulin sometimes many times a day. So it is sad. You'll die if you don't so keep on taking the insulin so its best to keep your lifestyle. I just tried to tell you that I am on a ketogenic diet and the body adjusts itself to burn fat. If the body is storing fat it must be there for some reason. possibly as a store of energy that it broken down by ketosis when you cant take carbs.

Ever heard that phrase, "when you're in a deep hole, stop digging."? This is a T1 thread, there's been discussions recently about how non-T1s should be very careful about giving advice to T1s when they know f**k all about it, so take that on board.

 

[Catsymoo]

@Catsymoo - without wishing to sound alarmist, have you looked at the symptoms for gastroparesis? The pain and nausea could be symptomatic, I believe.

I have looked into it and it is a bit worrying and scaring me. Although my symptoms came on suddenly after a heavy night out and the doctors think it's just an ulcer/acid inflammation. I haven't vomited at all and it's not that I'm feeling full after trying to eat, it's more my appetite just goes and I feel sick even though I want to eat. I've only been T1 5 years and I've had no complications as my control is decent. I thought gastroperesis was in uncontrolled/high blood sugars for long periods of time?