Appalled at experiments on dogs

[juliekem]

As a diabetes sufferer, I am nonetheless appalled at the experiments done on dogs, even if it paves the way for a human cure.
These animals cannot consent to this treatment and we have not been given any details of how these experiments were carried out i.e. were these animals just "lab" animals? Were they kept in humane condidtions?
Many of the dogs used in dog food testing (supposedly for the benefit of dogs) are kept in cages with no blankets and certainly no toys let alone having any love and affection or even a walk.
Dog lovers will know what I am talking about as this abuse has been well documented and the information is all out there on the internet for those who want to look.
Before anyone says it, no, I would NOT agree to animal testing even if my children were involved, unless it is carried out humanely and the animals are well treated , preferably living at home with a nice family.
What is going to happen next with these poor dogs? Very often they are killed and then dissected to see what effect there has been on the internal organs.
Badly done DCUK for reporting this abuse with not even a comment about the poor dogs! No it ISN'T worth it.

 

[sterling]

Fine if we dismiss all medical advances that have been made through animal testing.

The alternative is either human testing or no life testing.

Should animal testing be disallowed by law, then society would have to accept that drug companies may not be negligent in releasing drugs onto the market that cause serious side-effects.

 

[phoenix]

I don't know what conditions the dogs were kept in. We do know the procedure used was 'minimally invasive consisting of a single session of various injections in the animal's rear legs using simple needles.' Undoubtedly they also did glucose testing etc on the dogs.

http://www.uab.es/servlet/Satellite/lat ... 5652365690
(this includes a picture with what I assume may be 2 of the dogs)
They may now continue the research using companion dogs (quite a lot of dogs have T1 type diabetes so if the procedure is successful, will benefit )

Personally as a T1 I am grateful for the research on dogs that led to the discovery of insulin, without which we would be dead or dying.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/di ... nsulin.php
(when you read it, read down to the moment when the first insulin was injected into comatosed children.) Personally, I think that the experiments on dogs that led to this was totally acceptable and justified. (and was of that opinion, long before I developed T1)
Most insulin, was until recent years of animal origin. .

 

[mo1905]

If a cure is found because of testing on dogs, well worth it in my opinion. Bit harsh maybe but each to their own. We could argue over this all day. Some people have very strong views and some don't, simple.

 

[Hobs]

If a cure is found because of testing on dogs, well worth it in my opinion. Bit harsh maybe but each to their own. We could argue over this all day. Some people have very strong views and some don't, simple.

:thumbup: .. :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[CambridgeLass]

Firstly, this report stems from a published paper. DUK always writes articles in layman terms. Scientists cannot do experiments on animals in the UK, including mice, without a licence from the home office, and proper training which includes an exam and training. Animals are very well cared for - its all quite well regulated. Before airing views you should perhaps know the full facts and not jump to media propaganda from animal activists. If you feel so strongly about it you should perhaps not be taking your medication as EVERYTHING is tested on animals before going through phased trials and years later coming onto the market if successful. Well done to these scientists and all others who work tirelessly in research to progress to where we are today.


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[CambridgeLass]

Here's one of my favourite studies: gene therapy to treat inherited blindness. The dogs were blind and given sight. http://youtu.be/fGdUx_45mY0.
10 years later the UCL guys treated their first patient, you may remember the news story.


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[SamJB]

I've worked in pharmacology and almost every drug that comes to market has been tested on animals. Paracetamol, asprin, ibuprofen, insulin, all cancer treatments. I'd make a bet that you've had one of these drugs and that you wouldn't deprive your children from cancer treatment.

I agree that its not nice. It really isn't. But in my view it's necessary. I want to be cured, desperately so.

 

[carb-counting-mum]

I don't know what conditions the dogs were kept in. We do know the procedure used was 'minimally invasive consisting of a single session of various injections in the animal's rear legs using simple needles.' Undoubtedly they also did glucose testing etc on the dogs.

http://www.uab.es/servlet/Satellite/lat ... 5652365690
(this includes a picture with what I assume may be 2 of the dogs)
They may now continue the research using companion dogs (quite a lot of dogs have T1 type diabetes so if the procedure is successful, will benefit )

Personally as a T1 I am grateful for the research on dogs that led to the discovery of insulin, without which we would be dead or dying.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/di ... nsulin.php
(when you read it, read down to the moment when the first insulin was injected into comatosed children.) Personally, I think that the experiments on dogs that led to this was totally acceptable and justified. (and was of that opinion, long before I developed T1)
Most insulin, was until recent years of animal origin. .

Read the bottom article. I was quite touched at how insulin saved the lives of those children, must have been quite a dramatic moment. I'm just glad we live in the 21st century and that my daughter can live a relatively normal life thanks to insulin. How awful for all those parents who lost their children before the discovery of insulin. Re. the dogs trial, as long as the animals are treated with respect and not suffering badly, then I think we have no choice. People use animals all the time; for food, for leather etc. I bet some farm animals suffer much more than these dogs. I hope they are treated as kindly as possible, and I hope they will play a part in curing diabetes.

 

[sterling]

Animals also benefit from drugs, often after they have been tested on human beings.

Horses, for instance, are treated with Metformin and the dose is vast compared with that of human beings. 35 tablets Metformin tablets a day is not unheard of for a large horse.

 

[juliekem]

To all of you who say that testing on animals is inevitable - it isn't, that't the point. Other means are available and actually are very much more effective than using animals who don't respond in the same way that humans do.
There is no question of denying treatment to any age group in society - animal testing is not neccessary, ESPECIALY on our greatest friends who do so much good for humans, our pets.
The "stringent" controls are I am affraid, not so stringent - animal welfare falls way below what most people would consider to be humane. I am actually a scientist myself and not a member of any animal welfare extremists, I am quite well able to judge the information I receive so am not swayed by propaganda. Part of studying for higher degrees involves being able to sort the wheat from the chaff!
As for other common drugs being tested - that is unfortunately a government requirement - surely everyone has heard of the LD50 test? Rather than supporting this unnecessary abuse we should all be pressing the government to insist that other methods are used, they ARE available. We cannot change what has been done in the past, we can change what might happen in the future.

 

[mo1905]

You are more than entitled to your opinions and I applaud your passion on this. However, please leave others to their opinions also. I will not, and don't really care to change your mind. You will also not change mine.

 

[SamJB]

The reason that dogs get chosen for research like this is because they are large mammals. This research was previously done on mice to prove its safety and efficacy. It was moved onto dogs presumably because they have a similar mass and dietary requirement to us.

Unfortunately testing on animals is absolutely necessary. You can't just give humans proteins or ligands that you create in the lab as they could interfere with the myriad of biochemical pathways that occur in the body.

I do respect your opinion though and agree that it is not nice, but in my opinion it is necessary.

 

[CambridgeLass]

I’m sorry juliekem I thought you were talking about the latest research article, where diabetic dogs were given a single administration of gene therapy, thereby achieving normoglycemia. As a scientist you have not researched the facts of this study as your original posting is ever so inaccurate, and you’re certainly are not the only PhD scientist on this forum! You seem to have regressed into an argument as if all animals used in experiments are tortured or put down! This forum serves to give help and advice to others; there are more appropriate places if you want to debate animal welfare issues.

 

[mo1905]

Well said CambridgeLass ! I'm all for everyone having their own opinions but not too keen when they try to force them on others !


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[Robinredbreast]

I am an animal lover, even worked in a Kennels many years ago. I know testing goes on, but animals cannot say" please don't do that to me again,please stop hurting me, please help me escape from here,please let me rest"............

Even though I love animals so much, I know that some testing must be done, but at least let the animals enjoy being that animal and have, at least, basic care with a safe and comfortable enviroment, access to water, exercise and treated humanely.

Animals dont ask for much in life, food, water and a little bit of TLC, we can't deprive a living creature this,especially the wonderful work dogs do, guide dogs, hearing dogs, alert dogs, sniffing out bombs etc for the Armed forces, rescue dogs and also the Police.

Best wishes RRB

 

[hanadr]

Although I do not approve of any kind of cruely to animals, i do remember that Banting and Best did most of their research on identifying Insulin deficiency as the cause of diabetes, on dogs.
It's terribly dificult to find any "absolutes" of morality in medical research.
In the matter pof cosmetic research, it's easier, because none of us MUST have cosmetics [ for beauty products] However T1 diabetics, MUST have insulin to survive.
I'm not saying this to denigrate all animal protection, but to comment on how difficult some of these moral questions are.
Hana

 

[mo1905]

Agree, but we don't know for sure they have no access to water and receive no exercise. I'm certain they don't choose to be there but sometimes it's for the greater good. I don't agree with testing cosmetics on animals but if they can help cure chronic disease of any sort, I think the end result is what counts unfortunately. As I've said a few times now, this subject can go on and on. Different people have different views. Simple.


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[JConnor]

If you are strongly opposed to animal testing would you be willing to be used in the experiment in the early days yourself????
Sorry I am against outright cruelty to animals but the research helps us all, it keeps us alive and helps our children and grandchild, how can we object to dogs having simple injections to try and cure a chronic disease?? We as diabetics have multiple daily 'simple' injections!


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[phoenix]

We as diabetics have multiple daily 'simple' injections!

As did the control dogs in the experiment. Four years later the experimental dogs are in better condition than the controls.
I agree that it could have gone the other way but I cannot see an alternative means of testing what happens in a whole body with it's multitude of interconnecting systems.
We regularly discuss research on rodents and this sort of research has hugely developed our understanding of the body.
Ultimately, with a possible therapy such as this I think it is essential that it is tested on mammals more similar to ourselves.
It seems the dogs in the press photo are experimental dogs 'cured' with the procedure.