Are we really wrong about fat?

[Guzzler]

I have NEVER UNDERSTOOD which are good fats and which are bad. Everytime I get into readings posts
on this subject I get contradictions of opinions EVERYTIME. Once told cheese was the only reliably safe
food in this respect - now I see that cheese is under the magnifying glass - it's no wonder advance is slow
towards getting a cure or definitive diets for us.

You won't go too far wrong as long as you avoid man made PUFAs (polyunsaturated fats such as in almost all processed foods and vegetable oils).

 

[Oldvatr]

You won't go too far wrong as long as you avoid man made PUFAs (polyunsaturated fats such as in almost all processed foods and vegetable oils).

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/oil-of-oleacute/

Having seen serious documents describing the processes needed to make Rapeseed oil safe and palatable for supermarkets, and also seeing the various caustic and poisonous chemicals added to, then filtered out, during the process, there is no way that rapeseed oil as sold is a natural product, It is a concoction of chemicals and reagents used to give it clarity and longer shelf life and is IMHO something to avoid.

 

[Guzzler]

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/oil-of-oleacute/

Having seen serious documents describing the processes needed to make Rapeseed oil safe and palatable for supermarkets, and also seeing the various caustic and poisonous chemicals added to, then filtered out, during the process, there is no way that rapeseed oil as sold is a natural product, It is a concoction of chemicals and reagents used to give it clarity and longer shelf life and is IMHO something to avoid.

I did use rapeseed oil at the start of my research into seed oils but had found conflicting opinions on it. It mattered little to me in the end because I just prefer animal fats and I do not like mayo so it wasn't a big decision to stop using rapeseed oil.

Edited to ask,

I have now heard one boffin say it takes up to two years for the body to rid itself of man made PUFAs but another boffin reckons it may be up to four years. More research methinks.

 

[pdmjoker]

if it comes out of a factory its probably not good.

You could describe an abattoir as being a factory. The point is how processed the food item is. Extra Virgin Olive oil which is cold-pressed (extracted by purely mechanical means) and sold in dark glass bottles should be fine...

 

[bulkbiker]

You could describe an abattoir as being a factory. The point is how processed the food item is. Extra Virgin Olive oil which is cold-pressed (extracted by purely mechanical means) and sold in dark glass bottles should be fine...

You could but I think you know what I mean..

 

[Brunneria]

@pdmjoker

That is interesting.

My first reaction is that a factory is somewhere that manufactures something.
Which would not make an abattoir a factory, so I think I would describe it as a processing plant.
Likewise somewhere that cold presses olive oil into bottles.
But not somewhere that transforms the first squeezings of rapeseed oil into non-toxic bottled oil for human consumption. That would be manufacture and therefore a factory.

Of course, things then get tricky when people start announcing that meat is 'processed' and bickering about what is and what isn't considered processed.

Hmm. need to think about this. There is definitely (in my mind) a difference between processing and manufacturing. And while I might have that distinction very clear in my own head, I would be hard pushed to explain it to others.

Sorry for the wander into word usage. I love words.

 

[pdmjoker]

You could but I think you know what I mean..

Yes, but was trying to clarify things...

 

[Oldvatr]

If he was v fit and did lots of exercise, that would cause trigs to rise simply because of his energy requirements... I gather HDL is inversely proportional to trigs yet less variable/susceptible to fluctuations...

I am a bit confused with the way you use the term 'trigs' here. When we have a blood test by the lab then they report our cholesterol panel which includes a term 'trigs' and here they mean the residue left that is not HDL or LDL, and is in fact a measure of possibly harmful remnants of part used or damaged cholesterol that we now believe is associated with atherosclerosis. We now believe that LDL is a necessary and healthy adjunct of the lipid transfer system. I think what you were referring to when you said trigs above was either LDL or total cholesterol, and yes, that will increase when exercise demands more energy expenditure and will also change as we eat and digest food. This is why the blood test should be a fasting one else we get false readings for TC, and the statin makers rub their hands in glee as the GP reacts as programmed,

The problem stems from the fact that cholesterol is transporting lipids, which are bundled together in groups of 3 and surrounded by a bubble of glycerine and this is also called a triglyceride or trig. This leads to my confusion,

 

[Oldvatr]

@pdmjoker

That is interesting.

My first reaction is that a factory is somewhere that manufactures something.
Which would not make an abattoir a factory, so I think I would describe it as a processing plant.
Likewise somewhere that cold presses olive oil into bottles.
But not somewhere that transforms the first squeezings of rapeseed oil into non-toxic bottled oil for human consumption. That would be manufacture and therefore a factory.

Of course, things then get tricky when people start announcing that meat is 'processed' and bickering about what is and what isn't considered processed.

Hmm. need to think about this. There is definitely (in my mind) a difference between processing and manufacturing. And while I might have that distinction very clear in my own head, I would be hard pushed to explain it to others.

Sorry for the wander into word usage. I love words.

Applying you thought process to cheese making, then if it is done in a small farm dairy then it is processing, but if it is mixed in with lorry loads of cream from many farms, then it is a factory IMO. I believe the term 'industrial scale' is what seperates the two and is how I view PUFA production and some olive oil production nowadays.

i think the case of rapeseed oil and Canola is different in that in its unprocessed state it is toxic to man, and was not designed by 'im above' for us to eat, but in order to get the cost down and quantity up it requires heavy duty treatments involving other non natural chemicals to make it palatable and that makes these oils man made, and no longer techniclly natural products. It is a seperate issue to the quesstion as to why PUFA use in general does not seem to actually be healthier either when compared to saturated fats (SAFA)

 

[bulkbiker]

I just found this talk..... another by the great Nick Mailer which is slightly tangential to the main topic of the thread but interesting anyway.. Enjoy..

 

[Guzzler]

I just found this talk..... another by the great Nick Mailer which is slightly tangential to the main topic of the thread but interesting anyway.. Enjoy..

I've oft been heard to utter the phrase 'I hate philosophy, it makes my teeth bleed' but Nick puts his own brand of clarity on the whole question of dietary choices that really makes you think. I'm still not convinced about polyols, though!

 

[pdmjoker]

I am a bit confused with the way you use the term 'trigs' here. When we have a blood test by the lab then they report our cholesterol panel which includes a term 'trigs' and here they mean the residue left that is not HDL or LDL, and is in fact a measure of possibly harmful remnants of part used or damaged cholesterol that we now believe is associated with atherosclerosis. We now believe that LDL is a necessary and healthy adjunct of the lipid transfer system. I think what you were referring to when you said trigs above was either LDL or total cholesterol, and yes, that will increase when exercise demands more energy expenditure and will also change as we eat and digest food. This is why the blood test should be a fasting one else we get false readings for TC, and the statin makers rub their hands in glee as the GP reacts as programmed,

The problem stems from the fact that cholesterol is transporting lipids, which are bundled together in groups of 3 and surrounded by a bubble of glycerine and this is also called a triglyceride or trig. This leads to my confusion,

Yes, perhaps if someone on Keto is very fit and active their LDL (not trigs) would be high (I got muddled) as energy needs are high.
From what I heard Dave Feldman say, yes cholesterol remnants could actually be the genuinely "bad" cholesterol that causes atherosclerosis and CVDs. However, I got the impression the remnant was TC-HDL-LDL-Trigs, but I might have misunderstood...
Edit: I WAS wrong, explanation here: http://cholesterolcode.com/remnant-cholesterol-what-every-low-carber-should-know/

 

[pdmjoker]

I love words.

Me too, and thanks for the response!

 

[Oldvatr]

Yes, perhaps if someone on Keto is very fit and active their LDL (not trigs) would be high (I got muddled) as energy needs are high.
From what I heard Dave Feldman say, yes cholesterol remnants could actually be the genuinely "bad" cholesterol that causes atherosclerosis and CVDs. However, I got the impression the remnant was TC-HDL-LDL-Trigs, but I might have misunderstood...
Edit: I WAS wrong, explanation here: http://cholesterolcode.com/remnant-cholesterol-what-every-low-carber-should-know/

My take on cholesterol, for what it may be worth, is this. Cholesterol is manufactured by our bodies as required and delivers lipids on a just-in-time basis to where the demand us highest. Our bodies are very good at this normally and cholesterol is not normally 'the enemy'.

Digging down into the endocrine system, it has been noted that every molecule of cholesterol we make has a specific chemical code that (a) defines the cells as cholesterol, (b) what tyoe or size of molecule, (c) what cargo it is carrying, (d) what cargo is left in the bubble. In addition the body adds a code that is unique to each of us and also identifies it as part of our body, This code allows receivers to decide if they are going to use the cargo, or transfer the cargo, or reject the whole thing as a virus so that the immune system deals with it as an annoying bit of inflammation to be excreted.

Normally these chemical codes make sure that the lipids are used properly and that wasted or depleted ones can be recycled. However, if inflammation strikes, and damages the code so that the body no longer recognises it as valid and useful, then it becomes a remmnant. Most remnants get removed by the HDL hoovering them up, but some remain in the bloodstream unable to do anything useful except congregate on street corners creating a nuisance, This is the bad boys club.

This personal code is actually the reason why dietary cholesterol is unimportant to us since it is identified as being foreign to our bodies, so is not used. It has to be 'made on the premises' to be useful. Instead the glycerine of the foreign sourced CHO can be stripped and re-used thus saving energy in making new overcoats for our lipids. Glycerine is also used to repair skeletal mitochondria and muscle tissue, I believe, so is not just limited to cholesterol manufacture.

Perhaps an oversimplification of the process, but it is a nice picture to carry around when being told LDL is the bad boy. It isn't. I like fluffy chylomicrons too, since they tickle me pink.

 

[pdmjoker]

CHO

Thank you - interesting and helpful. One meaning I found for CHO is "Chinese hamster ovary" but I guess it means "Carbohydrate" (chemical formula Carbon Hydrogen Oxygen) in this case!

 

[BaliRob]

You won't go too far wrong as long as you avoid man made PUFAs (polyunsaturated fats such as in almost all processed foods and vegetable oils).

Thank you Guzzler - I will direct my attempts to understand 'fats' in that direction. Cheese, however, is man-made but hardly processed I would have thought (at least not as much as other products) would appreciate
your thoughts in this respect please.

 

[BaliRob]

Simple rule of thumb.. if it comes out of a factory its probably not good... so avoid (and personally I include olive oil in that to).

Thank you bulkbiker - so not much choice left then especially when compounded with Olive Oil - the health fanatics favourite.

 

[BaliRob]

Yes, it is VERY confusing! I gather dairy, animal fats, coconut oil and olive oil are the good ones, but cooking with olive oil isn't recommended.

Thank you - glad I have found someone who realises the whole subject is a contradiction. Take cheese for example - that is DAIRY - but comes out of a factory so is not good for us - without mild cheese I would be
lost to help with the hunger pangs on low carb. I was not born a monkey so I have never wanted nuts or berries others here suggest for snacking.

 

[AtkinsMo]

Chris Kresser and Dr Joel Khan, a vegan i believe, had a discussion online. General consensus was that the former won. Naturally vegans and low fat fans were not happy. However I came across this which seems to offer a particularly detailed analysis of the sience regarding sat fats. I'm deeply concerned about this. Unfortunately this is a huge video so ive tried to find the relevant part. I don't care that Zoe Harcombe wrote diet books (she's mentioned first). I care that she's right. Unfortunately also I am not a research scientist, I have no idea if, when you get into the guts of a study, that things can be missed or misinterpreted when you look at the really technical analytical tools. Like most people I'm a layman, but I do not want to play games with my hearlth. If sat fat is unhealthy and cholesterol does cause heart attacks, I want to know. I do not thinkt he community treats this seriously enough. Can we be sure the science is as settled as people claim?

I feel I have to defend Zoe Harcombe. She didn’t just ‘write a few diet books’. She has dedicated her entire career to researching diet and analysing the data to see the flaws in what we have been told.

If you to subscribe to her blog, it’s not very expensive, about £25 a year I think, and well worth the money, the first thing you receive is a copy of her PhD thesis. If you had doubts before, reading this document will convince you that this young lady has a huge brain, and a deeply analytical mind. It is the people subscribing to her blog that gives her the time and income to actually commit herself fully to research and analysis.

Subscribing to her blog gets you instant access to all of the detailed analysis of all of the ‘headline grabbing’ reports, like the recent one that said the food guidelines are correct, with regard to Carbohydrate consumption. If any new, controversial press reports appear, within 2 days you have an email with a detailed analysis and breakdown, quite amazing!

You also get her email address. On 2 separate occasions I have asked her to refer me to relevant research about specific queries (of course you can’t ask her for medical advice) - she has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the research as it relates to diet and health, and can tell you exactly where to look to find your answers.

 

[Oldvatr]

Thank you - glad I have found someone who realises the whole subject is a contradiction. Take cheese for example - that is DAIRY - but comes out of a factory so is not good for us - without mild cheese I would be
lost to help with the hunger pangs on low carb. I was not born a monkey so I have never wanted nuts or berries others here suggest for snacking.

Again, it comes down to scale and markets. If a product is marketed widely, for a large audience, then it will be 'processed ' accordingly. Also if the adverts include silly cartoon characters, and silly talk, then it is aimed at childrem, and may suffer from inappropriate additives and flavouring that are not always natural. For example, my supermarket sells a tube of soft cheese that has 18% added sugars, which are not usually associated with cheeses. Soft cheeses tend to have emulsifiers and other things to keep them runny, so again may not be good choices for lower carbers. In general the harder cheeses seem to be better in terms of having less processing stages and therefore stand a chance of being less artificial.

In our town there is a weekly farmers market that sells traditional cheeses. The problem is that there is no label giving nutrition values such as fat/carbs/ protein / salt etc since they are not as controlled as shop bought items. But they are very tasty......