Are we really wrong about fat?

[SheilaSalop]

Thank you for introducing me to Malcolm Kendrick - very interesting!

 

[tim2000s]

I'm aware of people that have ended up with huge triglyceride numbers in relation to LC diets, so it's not a case of one size fits all, and I think that's the biggest issue with nutrition.

It's not really a science and it is open to a dogmatic approach, because certain things work for certain people in certain cases and so far evidence can and has been presented, whether manipulated or not, about all of them. People jump on something that works for them and promote it, whether it is applicable to all or not.

I tend to agree with @Brunneria's point of view on this.

 

[bulkbiker]

I'm aware of people that have ended up with huge triglyceride numbers in relation to LC diets, so it's not a case of one size fits all, and I think that's the biggest issue with nutrition.

It's not really a science and it is open to a dogmatic approach, because certain things work for certain people in certain cases and so far evidence can and has been presented, whether manipulated or not, about all of them. People jump on something that works for them and promote it, whether it is applicable to all or not.

I tend to agree with @Brunneria's point of view on this.

Its normally LDL that rises (sometimes by a lot) did you mean that rather than trigs?

 

[tim2000s]

Its normally LDL that rises (sometimes by a lot) did you mean that rather than trigs?

No. I meant trigs. That's the point. He was a long term user of a low carb diet, and had a trigs count of 25 mmol/l. They tested him multiple times because they didn't believe it.

 

[bulkbiker]

No. I meant trigs. That's the point. He was a long term user of a low carb diet, and had a trigs count of 25 mmol/l. They tested him multiple times because they didn't believe it.

Interesting.. do you know what the outcome was?

 

[tim2000s]

Interesting.. do you know what the outcome was?

From what I understood they went straight for Statins and recommended diet changes. But I don't know the full details. It was a passing conversation in clinic about different approaches to lower Hba1C in people with Type 1.

 

[bulkbiker]

From what I understood they went straight for Statins and recommended diet changes. But I don't know the full details. It was a passing conversation in clinic about different approaches to lower Hba1C in people with Type 1.

Doubly interesting as statins are usually claimed to lower LDL ... but I guess we'll never know.

 

[NicoleC1971]

Its normally LDL that rises (sometimes by a lot) did you mean that rather than trigs?

To add to this ldl can rise on LCHF in what are called hyper responders (see the work of Dave Feldman). Then the question is does it matter in the context of a low carb diet? People do not know yet. But we do know there are plenty of people with low ldl having heart attacks and we do know that having high insulin and/or poor blood sugar control is associated with those heart attacks.
Nutrition is a very young science and seems insufficiently vigorous when it is used to make public health decisions. At least the tendency to partisanship and dogmatism is universal across the extremities of the dietary tribes.

 

[Guzzler]

So while we're all trying to get our heads around published data, the terminology, the manipulated figures, the abrevs and jargon etc we then have to decide whether to beleive the data that has been published, wonder about the unpublished data and whether the studies have been ghost written or not.
I need to move next door to John 'Des' Ionnides.

 

[bulkbiker]

So while we're all trying to get our heads around published data, the terminology, the manipulated figures, the abrevs and jargon etc we then have to decide whether to beleive the data that has been published, wonder about the unpublished data and whether the studies have been ghost written or not.
I need to move next door to John 'Des' Ionnides.

I think he'd say ignore most of it and do what feels right. I reckon a food type mankind has been thriving on for the past 2 1/2 million years is probably ok for us to eat now.

 

[Guzzler]

I think he'd say ignore most of it and do what feels right. I reckon a food type mankind has been thriving on for the past 2 1/2 million years is probably ok for us to eat now.

I couldn't agree more. We've been eating the stuff since before we came down from the trees yet since the demonisation of sat fat and the advent of ultra highly refined foodstuffs our longevity has actually begun (recently) to decline. It just makes no sense.

 

[Resurgam]

My trigs have gone down since being on LCHF - when on the 'cholesterol lowering' diet I don't know - somehow the results were not recorded. Hmmm.

 

[Aly67]

Chris Kresser and Dr Joel Khan, a vegan i believe, had a discussion online. General consensus was that the former won. Naturally vegans and low fat fans were not happy. However I came across this which seems to offer a particularly detailed analysis of the sience regarding sat fats. I'm deeply concerned about this. Unfortunately this is a huge video so ive tried to find the relevant part. I don't care that Zoe Harcombe wrote diet books (she's mentioned first). I care that she's right. Unfortunately also I am not a research scientist, I have no idea if, when you get into the guts of a study, that things can be missed or misinterpreted when you look at the really technical analytical tools. Like most people I'm a layman, but I do not want to play games with my hearlth. If sat fat is unhealthy and cholesterol does cause heart attacks, I want to know. I do not thinkt he community treats this seriously enough. Can we be sure the science is as settled as people claim?

 

[Oldvatr]

From what I understood they went straight for Statins and recommended diet changes. But I don't know the full details. It was a passing conversation in clinic about different approaches to lower Hba1C in people with Type 1.

I believe that some people have a genetic disposition to high cholesterol
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000392.htm

This is a recognised medical condition established before LCHF took the nations attention or grabbef the headlines.

A level of 25 mmol/l is excessive by any dietary standards, and would suggest something else is responsible, but possibly aided and abetted by diet.

Some people have had their gall bladders removed, and need to take care of fat ingestion, but again their cholestetol levels do not seem to rise to that level.

 

[pdmjoker]

No. I meant trigs. That's the point. He was a long term user of a low carb diet, and had a trigs count of 25 mmol/l. They tested him multiple times because they didn't believe it.

If he was v fit and did lots of exercise, that would cause trigs to rise simply because of his energy requirements... I gather HDL is inversely proportional to trigs yet less variable/susceptible to fluctuations...

 

[Oldvatr]

Quod me nutrit me destruit. In fact every time we breathe in, we oxidize a bit more, which causes inflammation. Living ultimately results in death, We are indeed doomed.

 

[pdmjoker]

In fact every time we breathe in, we oxidize a bit more, which causes inflammation. Living ultimately results in death

I gather breathing for a year causes damage from oxidation equivalent to 10,000 chest X-rays!

 

[BaliRob]

I have NEVER UNDERSTOOD which are good fats and which are bad. Everytime I get into readings posts
on this subject I get contradictions of opinions EVERYTIME. Once told cheese was the only reliably safe
food in this respect - now I see that cheese is under the magnifying glass - it's no wonder advance is slow
towards getting a cure or definitive diets for us.

 

[pdmjoker]

I have NEVER UNDERSTOOD which are good fats and which are bad. Everytime I get into readings posts
on this subject I get contradictions of opinions EVERYTIME. Once told cheese was the only reliably safe
food in this respect - now I see that cheese is under the magnifying glass - it's no wonder advance is slow
towards getting a cure or definitive diets for us.

Yes, it is VERY confusing! I gather dairy, animal fats, coconut oil and olive oil are the good ones, but cooking with olive oil isn't recommended.

 

[bulkbiker]

I have NEVER UNDERSTOOD which are good fats and which are bad. Everytime I get into readings posts
on this subject I get contradictions of opinions EVERYTIME. Once told cheese was the only reliably safe
food in this respect - now I see that cheese is under the magnifying glass - it's no wonder advance is slow
towards getting a cure or definitive diets for us.

Simple rule of thumb.. if it comes out of a factory its probably not good... so avoid (and personally I include olive oil in that to).