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Are we reurning to 'normal' too quickly.

lindisfel said:
You seem to have lost your temper...
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Not at all. I'm perfectly relaxed. I just don't appreciate ad hominen attacks on character and straw man arguments about 5G masts. I'm also only stating an opinion, not attempting to mob those with a point of view that doesn't align with accepted wisdom.

Ironically, given your earlier comments, this exact same pattern of behaviour has plagued the low-carb movement for decades. Perhaps it's a good thing that some tenacious engineers and actual scientists weathered the storm so that we here can now enjoy the luxury of living a healthy life against all government advice and media intervention.

EDIT: Cross-posted with @Goonergal. No further comment from me.
 
Goonergal said:
This thread is about the exchange of views on whether we are returning to ‘normal’ too quickly. Discussion and polite disagreement is welcome but bickering is not. Please bear this in mind.
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Thank you you make fair point.
We all realise that the country needs to find a strategy to keep this virus in check.
In no way can we ignore it because its evident from those who could deal with it early they have been relatively less affected.
Unfortunately again we are tardy with track and trace. Germany may help us out. We may get a vaccine. Something may turn up.
There appears to be an odd asymmetry in what is going ahead whereas the health service is still in virtual lock down.

I dont think any of us know what will happen. I just hope another 65000 wont die.
regards
Derek
 
JRT said:
I for one find myself worn down with interpreting advice and reports etc. I was lucky enough to be able to self isolate since mid March as I have savings,a small amount but enough to last nearly a year if careful.
I'm 58 . I work in a care home as a support worker. I'm a qualified teacher but after years of a responsible job and then two years caring for my father I decided to go for a job where I could just work with people and earn enough to pay bills. I do mainly 1:1 work and on whole was enjoying it. I watched the current situation from mid February with growing concern. In my last working week my employers lied about there being a case of Covid in the building. Fortunately I was extremely cautious on my last shift as later found out the case was on the floor I work on. Since then a third of the residents have died of Covid including nearly half the floor I worked on. My employers have been at best incompetent at worst malicious. I have received no pay since March, they refused to furlough me unless shielded and say I'm not entitled to SSP. They have not told me about deaths, I learned from a colleague. I was told to return to work when I felt it was safe to do so. Frequent requests for individual risk assessments have been ignored as have requests to work from home which would be possible due to past experience have been denied. To further complicate issue I dont drive so have to take two buses to and from work.
So is everything opening to quickly. Yes,I think it is. At the moment the majority of people are not badly affected by this virus. The economy needs to get working. I even agree that the majority shouldnt suffer on account of a minority who are shielded/high risk.
Where I despair is the plight of a lot of this minority. From August in England a lot of support will be withdrawn. Those already in receipt of benefits/pensions will have a hard time but at least an income. Those who are employed are totally reliant on their employers to provide a covid safe environment and the general public following measures. Hmm. Unfortunately the only way I could possibly prove my work environment is non compliant is to be in it. The majority of carers where I work are in the lowest risk group. They are poorly paid with no sick pay if ill.
Diabetes UK campaigned for more considered treatment of diabetics. I received my reply from my MP today. Of course they are concerned about diabetics but then what followed was a copy of the guidelines. Ok so I stay at home as much as possible, socially distance,minimize contact with those outside my household and only return to work if Covid Safe. In reality I have to negotiate public transport and spend 12 hours in a poorly ventilated very high risk building with PPE that is not guaranteed. They can open up lockdown all they want. Worse case scenario is that high risk workers are potentially paying the price.
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" In my last working week my employers lied about there being a case of Covid in the building. Fortunately I was extremely cautious on my last shift as later found out the case was on the floor I work on. Since then a third of the residents have died of Covid " I wouldn't be at all surprised if this practice of keeping Covid cases quiet in care homes were not more widespread. After all what would they do if the employees all left as you did?And they couldn't persuade any others to replace them? I applaud & support you absolutely in what you did. You may well owe your life to your wise decision.However the management would be stuck if everyone left. A care home can't just close down like a factory.I do hope you can find a safe job, if only part time, once we have a vaccine.
 
Tannith said:
" In my last working week my employers lied about there being a case of Covid in the building. Fortunately I was extremely cautious on my last shift as later found out the case was on the floor I work on. Since then a third of the residents have died of Covid " I wouldn't be at all surprised if this practice of keeping Covid cases quiet in care homes were not more widespread. After all what would they do if the employees all left as you did?And they couldn't persuade any others to replace them? I applaud & support you absolutely in what you did. You may well owe your life to your wise decision.However the management would be stuck if everyone left. A care home can't just close down like a factory.I do hope you can find a safe job, if only part time, once we have a vaccine.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...for-all-uk-adults-to-spend-in-covid-hit-firms
I do hope they don't do this. It seems insane to first lockdown, and then spoil everything by actively encouraging people to go out again. High risk people would be tempted to go out when they shouldn't. And even if the vouchers were transferable, who would want to give a loved one a voucher which might be a death sentence to them?The economy could be restarted just as easily with a VAT reduction that would apply online. Money spent online also restarts the economy.
 
Tannith said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...for-all-uk-adults-to-spend-in-covid-hit-firms
I do hope they don't do this. It seems insane to first lockdown, and then spoil everything by actively encouraging people to go out again. High risk people would be tempted to go out when they shouldn't. And even if the vouchers were transferable, who would want to give a loved one a voucher which might be a death sentence to them?The economy could be restarted just as easily with a VAT reduction that would apply online. Money spent online also restarts the economy.
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Money spent online helps the online forms like Amazon who already don't pay enough tax. I am not sure they would do this idea but the point is to get the high streets working I would guess. This is where all the major job cuts are being announced

I know we need to protect people but I've said it before and I will say it again, destroying the economy will kill more people. Lockdown is killing people, mental health, lack of treatments. It's all well and good refusing to go to work and school but the impact I believe will be massively worse.

I know people are scared and we need to mitigate risk and people are being stupid now and the shops look like lockdown never happened and that's bad but even as someone in a higher risk category, I cannot see that lockdown can continue
 
NicoleC1971 said:
We walked our dog through 6 miles of woodlands and heath to end up in a country pub in Hedley.
Other than the novelty of being cooked for and havin no washing up to do, I really enjoyed seeing a large family getting together and being physically normal with each other.
This pub got the balance right between reassuring customers by their social distancing measures e.g. no bar service, food brought to an adjoining table etc. but also making the whole thing human by not having masks on (if there was any risk to not wearing masks then it was greater to themselves than their customers).
So I don't think I will convince many on this thread but wanted to report that contrary to the fears of the media this pub had taken both its customer service and health protection measures very seriously!


\the
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Great to hear. Went for a few guinness myself last night. Hotel bar so very spaced out and a large area but given the nature and size of the venue anyway didn't feel weird or "not normal". Staff did wear masks which was for their protection as much as anything. Saw a few people push the boundaries a bit towards the end but staff reminded them to be sensible. I know in NI we have lower case figures and good track and trace but was still very reassured by the entire experience and set up
 
Jamie H said:
Great to hear. Went for a few guinness myself last night. Hotel bar so very spaced out and a large area but given the nature and size of the venue anyway didn't feel weird or "not normal". Staff did wear masks which was for their protection as much as anything. Saw a few people push the boundaries a bit towards the end but staff reminded them to be sensible. I know in NI we have lower case figures and good track and trace but was still very reassured by the entire experience and set up
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My only worry is that the places that are open won't make enough money to stay open now they've taken staff off furlough. I guess I will have to keep going out to the pub to do my bit for the economy!
 
The immediate threat to overwhelming the NHS so that people could not even get treated humanely and have a fighting chance has passed. The question is when is there going to be a vaccine. The only thing that is actually going to make us feel safe and secure. If they said next year, many more vulnerable people would be able to hang on and isolate. If they said 10 years or never, how many of us at the autumn/winter part of our lives would be prepared to wait.
I am lucky, retired, live in a nice house with garden, and no money worries. How can I possibly criticise the younger generation, who are unlikely to be felled by this virus, have money worries and seeing their future plans and life go up in smoke. For them lockdown has to move on. As a society the time has come to make our decisions about what is right for us in the context of our own lives. I don’t need the government to sort that out. I am lucky I do not need to go to shops, pubs and restaurants. My hair is long and grey but If it got terrible my husband could shave it off and I could cover with a scarf. I have no desire for Botox or long varnished covered nails which would get in the way of housework and gardening. And as a general rule i do not go abroad on holiday anyway. ( I am 60 and have been out of this country 6 times!) what is important to me is not living to 100 but enjoying my remaining years with my close family. My husband, my son, daughter in law and 3 year old grandson. Yesterday I hugged them all. It was wonderful. A week on Tuesday I will look after my grandson one day a week again. If I am unlucky enough to succumb then at least I will go happy, not pining for a life that can only be lived in a bubble. But that is my decision made with all the evidence of my life. I do not feel I can criticise others for living their lives in the way that they wish.
 
Oh and with this wretched disease I could have a bad hypo and die in the night. Do I worry about that every night I go to bed. No! Life is a risk!
 
Jim Lahey said:
Never. Trying to get rid of this virus now would be like trying to get rid of the common cold. And a vaccine may never be available, so really we just have to get on with life and let the chips fall where they may. Going to war on a coronavirus is pure folly. We have already lost.

In my opinion. No citation necessary.
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Giving up on the war with this virus is what would be pure folly. The war is not one battle it is a series of battles. By slowing transmission we have saved life for sure. We have given time for better ventilation practices to be developed ,for drugs that mitigate fatality to be identified and sourced, for other avenues to be explored, plasma treatments, blood thinning etc. Undoubtedly more will live now than if they had contracted Covid in a big rush at the beginning of the pandemic. This is before we even think of the holy grail of a vaccine.
What we hope to achieve by a cautious lifting of lockdown is to identify those measures that have the greatest effect on surpressing the virus whilst still protecting the vunerable.
 
Dusty911 said:
Giving up on the war with this virus is what would be pure folly. The war is not one battle it is a series of battles. By slowing transmission we have saved life for sure. We have given time for better ventilation practices to be developed ,for drugs that mitigate fatality to be identified and sourced, for other avenues to be explored, plasma treatments, blood thinning etc. Undoubtedly more will live now than if they had contracted Covid in a big rush at the beginning of the pandemic. This is before we even think of the holy grail of a vaccine.
What we hope to achieve by a cautious lifting of lockdown is to identify those measures that have the greatest effect on surpressing the virus whilst still protecting the vunerable.
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Saw this online, it made me laugh

`An epidemiologist,an ICU doctor and a scientist all walk into a bar.`

Only kidding,they know better.
 
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It is great that the figures for new cases are coming down day after day. However, it only takes a few cases, like at the start of all this originally, to multiply back to April/may levels.

Staying careful is still needed.
 
lucylocket61 said:
It is great that the figures for new cases are coming down day after day. However, it only takes a few cases, like at the start of all this originally, to multiply back to April/may levels.

Staying careful is still needed.
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I would have thought that to get the economy going again, the best thing would be to reopen factories and offices where only the employees had to be protected (with screens etc). Instead of businesses where the customers also were put at risk, like bars and restaurants and possibly places of entertainment like cinemas and theme parks.That way perhaps we could start to produce goods and services and maybe export again. The fact that they are even discussing vouchers to encourage people out of lockdown makes me worry that they might put pressure on people to put themselves in danger for the sake of the economy. We are already being told that the people on the extremely vulnerable list will have to fend for themselves at the end of this month.And why are they giving various lockdown instructions yet they haven't been policing them for weeks (except in Leicester). Is that so that Govt can pretend they were advocating lockdown whilst not actually enforcing it to make it happen?
 
Tannith said:
I would have thought that to get the economy going again, the best thing would be to reopen factories and offices where only the employees had to be protected (with screens etc). Instead of businesses where the customers also were put at risk, like bars and restaurants and possibly places of entertainment like cinemas and theme parks.That way perhaps we could start to produce goods and services and maybe export again. The fact that they are even discussing vouchers to encourage people out of lockdown makes me worry that they might put pressure on people to put themselves in danger for the sake of the economy. We are already being told that the people on the extremely vulnerable list will have to fend for themselves at the end of this month.And why are they giving various lockdown instructions yet they haven't been policing them for weeks (except in Leicester). Is that so that Govt can pretend they were advocating lockdown whilst not actually enforcing it to make it happen?
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Yes, this voucher idea worries me, it seems to deliberately manipulate people getting together. As regards the choice to open pubs etc. the government makes billions a year from the sales of alcohol,
 
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lucylocket61 said:
Yes, this voucher idea worries me, it seems to deliberately manipulate people getting together. As regards the choice to open pubs etc. the government makes billions a year from the sales of alcohol,
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To add to what I said earlier before I went off to watch Maigret on ITV. During the programme I saw an ad urging people to "go out and enjoy doing what you used to do" or words to that effect. I looked up and to my disgust it was not an ad from a brewery but in the corner it said "UK Gov"! Whatever next? Urging people to come out of lockdown for no good reason, not to work, which would help to keep the economy afloat, or go to get healthcare or food which are necessary for everyone, but for non essential reasons.I don't think the Govt wants us to stay safe. You're on your own guys & girls!
 
I am still careful as to where I go and who I see as my OH has various health issues including heart problems, asthma and Parkinson’s which we believe makes him very vulnerable but he has not got a shielding letter so he is still working. However Covid-19 is a new disease which is likely to be with us for a long time and is, therefore, something that we may have to learn to live with just as our parents and grandparents did with the likes of Smallpox, Polio and Typhoid etc until a vaccine is found.
 
Tannith said:
I don't think the Govt wants us to stay safe.
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Alternative possibility - they’ve come to realise they too got trolled into lockdown, and that the majority were never in that much danger to begin with. They’re now trying to subtly tell people what a minority of us have been saying for over a hundred days. Maybe...
 
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