Are we reurning to 'normal' too quickly.

Krystyna23040 said:

Yes, I agree that a visor is so much more comfortable than a mask. I am going to wear one when I go back to work.

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I would wear both.

On the local news yesterday an elderly gentleman boarded a bus in Mansfield wearing a mask only to find he was the only person on a packed bus to be wearing one, when he took the driver to task about it saying he thought it was now mandatory to wear a mask on public transport the driver informed him that the bus company Stagecoach had told the drivers not to challenge anybody.

JohnEGreen said:

I would wear both.

On the local news yesterday an elderly gentleman boarded a bus in Mansfield wearing a mask only to find he was the only person on a packed bus to be wearing one, when he took the driver to task about it saying he thought it was now mandatory to wear a mask on public transport the driver informed him that the bus company Stagecoach had told the drivers not to challenge anybody.

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Same in this area. Funny... the bus company here is Stagecoach as well.

JohnEGreen said:

I would wear both.

On the local news yesterday an elderly gentleman boarded a bus in Mansfield wearing a mask only to find he was the only person on a packed bus to be wearing one, when he took the driver to task about it saying he thought it was now mandatory to wear a mask on public transport the driver informed him that the bus company Stagecoach had told the drivers not to challenge anybody.

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That is truly shocking as it is mandatory to wear a mask.

My reason for wearing a visor only is because I can easily keep.more than 2 metres away from class members as I teach and I would really find it difficult to teach with a mask on.

HSSS said:

I recently needed to start a new job in a location I was at last year. My new work mates laugh at me (nicely) wearing my visor/mask but they apparently have no idea what 2m or even 1m is so they will be like dominos should one of them catch covid and then perhaps not be laughing at me dancing away from them and avoiding the cramped tea room! Many of them are higher risk than I am statistically

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You are being really sensible , unlike your new work mates.

I have decided to ignore government guidelines and am staying at 2m. I teach pilates and will make sure the class members stay a minimum of 2m apart at all times.

I imagine the bus drivers may be in danger of assault if they try to enforce masks.

People have been shouted at and elbowed etc for trying to maintain social distancing and protect their safe space nicely in shops and transport.

It a dangerous world.

lucylocket61 said:

I imagine the bus drivers may be in danger of assault if they try to enforce masks.

People have been shouted at and elbowed etc for trying to maintain social distancing and protect their safe space nicely in shops and transport.It a dangerous world.

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That is true but in that case how will any of these new rules and regulations be enforced and if that's the case where does it leave us.

JohnEGreen said:

That is true but in that case how will any of these new rules and regulations be enforced and if that's the case where does it leave us.

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they wont be enforced. There are not enough police, and the government is deliberately sewing confusion and undermining any effort to quell police action, or local powers. We cant have local shut downs until the local gp's etc are given the track and trace information, and the local powers are insufficient to effectively control the populace anyway.

They want civil unrest, so they can go ahead with herd immunity, and also make whatever deals they want while the media is focused on the insurrection the government caused by contradictory and unclear rules and regulations.

This also gives the government the ammunition it wants to blame all of us for their failings when the numbers rise again.

There was no herd immunity for small pox it took a global vaccination program years to eradicate it.
Where in areas vaccinations are not taken up for measles herd immunity fades away and you have a resurgence of the illness which spreads out one area to other areas.

This government I feel has a real disconnect from reality we cannot rely on the advent of a possible herd immunity that may never happen the virus like all viruses mutates all be it some times the mutations are benign and this virus does mutate at a slower rate which is a good thing but these systems are dynamic and change randomly all the time they really need to get a grip and not just drift along with the tide hoping for the best.

Or are they treating it like an exercise in eugenics and population control.

Could be they have been reading the Georgia Guidestones.

HSSS said:

I recently needed to start a new job in a location I was at last year. My new work mates laugh at me (nicely) wearing my visor/mask but they apparently have no idea what 2m or even 1m is so they will be like dominos should one of them catch covid and then perhaps not be laughing at me dancing away from them and avoiding the cramped tea room! Many of them are higher risk than I am statistically

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What visor do you wear if you don't mind me asking and if it's not a silly question in case I go out and buy a cricket helmet instead!! With me technically being back at school come September and Boris kindly stating that schools can scrap social distancing to cram as many as possible into a classroom I may well go down the visor route. Mind you I must say I am not sure how well that will go down with the school leadership team if I am the only one and the fact that my school caters for anxious children I don't want to scare the life out of the kids! No idea why face coverings of some sort are not being made mandatory at schools.

I am trying to be balanced here so I hope these 2 articles might shed some light:
https://gh.bmj.com/content/5/5/e002819
This author afvocates wearing masks because there is 'limited' and 'mechanistic' evidence that masks combined with hand washing would help reduce transmission.
This author takes a wider look at the ethics and legality as well as the efficacy of wearing a mask.
https://architectsforsocialhousing....d-arguments-in-support-of-civil-disobedience/

Wearing a mask assumes that this virus is especially prevalent and transmissable in schools but we should question that idea given the very low transmission rates amongst chilcren and from children to adults. We might also think about the anxiety we are creating by the new (ab) normal measures being taken in a culture of safetyism. Then there is the harm done by not running schools at the capacity they were designed for.
I am having to submit to wearing a mask and having my temp taken on my return to work but it seems to me that these measures are being done to reassure our members/clients and build confidence rather than a necessary precaution.

Max68 said:

What visor do you wear if you don't mind me asking and if it's not a silly question in case I go out and buy a cricket helmet instead!! With me technically being back at school come September and Boris kindly stating that schools can scrap social distancing to cram as many as possible into a classroom I may well go down the visor route. Mind you I must say I am not sure how well that will go down with the school leadership team if I am the only one and the fact that my school caters for anxious children I don't want to scare the life out of the kids! No idea why face coverings of some sort are not being made mandatory at schools.

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Mine looks like this and came from b and q pre covid.


I suspect something like this is a little less obvious. There are quite a few how to make a visor tutorials around on the web.

NicoleC1971 said:

Wearing a mask assumes that this virus is especially prevalent and transmissable in schools but we should question that idea given the very low transmission rates amongst chilcren and from children to adults.

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I thought the jury was still out or deciding kids caught and transmitted as much as anyone but simply suffered less themselves. To make assumptions without facts is gambling considerably. If you have information about any confirmation one way or other I’d like to read it. I hear you about the concerns for mental health though.
I just fail to see how on one hand it is necessary for all the adult population to maintain precautions but not to bother with the kids. Not just for their own health but that of the staff and families they then go home to. How on earth does a bubble of 300 teenagers in a year group maintain any kind of protection? Or do I and other family members who might have higher risks have to go through the entire school year - or until it is no longer a widespread issue/effective treatment has been established - not hugging our kids? What mental health damage would that do to them? Or knowing that they gave the disease to their loved one?

No easy answers

HSSS said:

I thought the jury was still out or deciding kids caught and transmitted as much as anyone but simply suffered less themselves. To make assumptions without facts is gambling considerably. If you have information about any confirmation one way or other I’d like to read it. I hear you about the concerns for mental health though.
I just fail to see how on one hand it is necessary for all the adult population to maintain precautions but not to bother with the kids. Not just for their own health but that of the staff and families they then go home to. How on earth does a bubble of 300 teenagers in a year group maintain any kind of protection? Or do I and other family members who might have higher risks have to go through the entire school year - or until it is no longer a widespread issue/effective treatment has been established - not hugging our kids? What mental health damage would that do to them? Or knowing that they gave the disease to their loved one?

No easy answers

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I totally agree with you and it's not just because I work in a school! I know I've said it before but I cannot for the life of me fathom why in one breath the government declare you need to social distance in an outside bar or get annoyed about people on a beach and in the next breath they are going to scrap social distance measures at a school. I keep hearing that children transmit less but I haven't seen any evidence and even if that's the case "less" just means less, it doesn't mean that they cannot transmit the thing. Even if kids didn't staff obviously can and do. In fact an asymptomatic child who can spread the virus "less" is probably more likely to infect a group than a symptomatic adult who is coughing and spluttering. At least you can "see" the enemy when the signs are there. We had a case within a week of reopening back at the start of June and went back to a basic opening for two weeks. We open fully again tomorrow with me doing the usual online stuff,. I await with interest how they will fare for the remaining three weeks of term.

Thank you for he visor ideas. I was talking to friends about masks and visors the other day and we all agreed visors were probably better. After all we have all done it I am sure when talking to someone that on occasion we accidentally spit a bit in someone's face and visors cover the eyes whereas masks don't.

I got a couple of dirt cheap visors off Amazon not the best maybe but I think they will suffice.

HSSS said:

I thought the jury was still out or deciding kids caught and transmitted as much as anyone but simply suffered less themselves. To make assumptions without facts is gambling considerably. If you have information about any confirmation one way or other I’d like to read it. I hear you about the concerns for mental health though.
I just fail to see how on one hand it is necessary for all the adult population to maintain precautions but not to bother with the kids. Not just for their own health but that of the staff and families they then go home to. How on earth does a bubble of 300 teenagers in a year group maintain any kind of protection? Or do I and other family members who might have higher risks have to go through the entire school year - or until it is no longer a widespread issue/effective treatment has been established - not hugging our kids? What mental health damage would that do to them? Or knowing that they gave the disease to their loved one?

No easy answers

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To be clear I don't think adults in non clinical settings need to wear masks either because I do not see evidence that the virus is prevalent in the UK anymore or that it is dangerous enough to the vast majority of the population. Every few Winters there are some similarly dangerous flu bugs around and sometimes ineffective vaccines and we know that kids do transmit flu very easily yet do not shut schools down so why is Covid 19 different. It is new but it is a type of virus we are familiar with and we do know a lot more about it now than we did in January i.e. the mortality rate is very low generally and we know that poorly controlled and elderly diabetics would be especially vulnerable.
It is difficult to prove a negative but were children transmitting the virus to each other or to their teachers and families, we would expect to see more positive evidence. It suits governments to use the argument that lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack and therefore justify the lockdown decision.
If you look at the link in the last article it does show that a tiny number of non symptomatic people were able to transmit the virus (0.97%) and it has been widely reported that the WHO has been unable to find someone who caught CoVid from a child.

A pity there is no emoticon for I think you are talking nonsense.

NicoleC1971 said:

It is difficult to prove a negative

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Actually, it is impossible to prove a negative, so trying to do so undermines any argument to which the attempt is made.

NicoleC1971 said:

I do not see evidence that the virus is prevalent in the UK anymore

It is difficult to prove a negative but were children transmitting the virus to each other or to their teachers and families, we would expect to see more positive evidence. It suits governments to use the argument that lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack and therefore justify the lockdown decision.

If you look at the link in the last article it does show that a tiny number of non symptomatic people were able to transmit the virus (0.97%) and it has been widely reported that the WHO has been unable to find someone who caught CoVid from a child.

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Nearly a 1000 new cases a day, people still dying in 100+ level on many days and a government level 3 of in general circulation doesn’t suggest the risk is gone. In fact the fall in cases appears to have stalled this week, not so coincidentally in the prime week for symptoms appearing after shops reopened!

Considering kids haven’t been at school since March in any significant numbers and probably those that have returned are less likely to include children with vulnerable family members what evidence would you expect to have seen? To prove what?

The lack of evidence argument works both ways. Risky or safe. And in both directions it has some truth.

The last article is only looking for evidence to support their cases so likely to only quote those studies. Others in favour of masks are citing opposing studies as is the way of these things when there is little consensus.

Must admit I have always found this "Flu" argument bizarre. In my 52 years I can honestly say I have never had flu, bad colds yes, food poisoning yes, norovirus yes, but never flu and I have always worked in schools! I however wouldn't be too confident in the current climate going about my business in a "normal" fashion of escaping Covid!!

NicoleC1971 said:

To be clear I don't think adults in non clinical settings need to wear masks either because I do not see evidence that the virus is prevalent in the UK anymore or that it is dangerous enough to the vast majority of the population. Every few Winters there are some similarly dangerous flu bugs around and sometimes ineffective vaccines and we know that kids do transmit flu very easily yet do not shut schools down so why is Covid 19 different. It is new but it is a type of virus we are familiar with and we do know a lot more about it now than we did in January i.e. the mortality rate is very low generally and we know that poorly controlled and elderly diabetics would be especially vulnerable.
It is difficult to prove a negative but were children transmitting the virus to each other or to their teachers and families, we would expect to see more positive evidence. It suits governments to use the argument that lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack and therefore justify the lockdown decision.
If you look at the link in the last article it does show that a tiny number of non symptomatic people were able to transmit the virus (0.97%) and it has been widely reported that the WHO has been unable to find someone who caught CoVid from a child.

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I suggest you look at the local hotspots that are emerging. It’s possible that Leicester, where some schools have also had to be closed because of positive tests, is probably facing another lockdown.
Surely, for the sake of everyone else, we should do our best to reduce transmission, and this includes wearing the best masks we can get our hands on.