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Can people really be to blame?

Amen. Lets have a jolly Christmassy Christmas eve. My two grandaughters are popping round fior a couple of hours so,that will be
4 girls,
2 cats,
2 diabetics,
1 with a virus,
all the toys out and a merrrrrrrrrreeeee day ahead !!

RRB :) peace to all :angelic:
 
You continue to use words like blame and shame when referring to diabetics. Both these words suggest wrongdoing on behalf of the diabetic.

You seem to be making a case for accepting responsibility as being synonimous with accepting blame. I have already pointed out that there is a world of difference between the two.

I am glad you were able to take the blame, accept responsibility and turn your lifestyle around. You are a sample of one. Slightly too small a sample to be drawing general conclusions from.

As far as I can recall from memory

Four out of five newly diagnosed diabetics are overweight or obese.

One in three people in the USA are overweight or obese.

One in ten people in the USA are diabetics.

The above would suggest a relationship between obesity and diabetes, but mot necessarily a cause and effect.

It still means that one in five diabetics developed the disease despite not being overweight, and that two in three overweight or obese people did not develop the disease.

What is your relationship with diabetes anyway? I was not determine from your profile? I can't help wondering why it seems so important to you to find blame with t2 diabetics.
 
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Scardoc said:
A community is :“a social group sharing common characteristics or interests.......

Yes, by definition. this is a diabetic community but first and foremost it is a forum.....
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Well IMHO Scardoc you are missing one very important point and that is that this is a support forum for diabetics, yes there are all sorts of forums on the www, forums for people who like a particular football team or make/model of car or a pastime such as cycling or fishing but a support forum by definition is for the mutual support of diabetics what it is not here for is to apportion blame to a section of the community ie some of you ate yourselves to diabetes, that type of statement has no place on a support forum as all it does is makes people feel bad about themselves.

Support forums are there for the benefit of other like minded individuals to try to help not to point fingers.

And of course despite all that the reasons why people develop T2 diabetes are wide and varied and not yet fully understood and whilst obesity may be a marker it is not a cause as only 20% of obese people will develop diabetes, so statements like that do no good what-so-ever and can only help make people feel bad about themselves the complete opposite of what this support forum is here to do.
 
pavlosn said:
What is your relationship with diabetes anyway? I was not determine from your profile? I can't help wondering why it seems so important to you to find blame with t2 diabetics.
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@pavlosn

Again, I have to take great exception to your comment above.

I am T1.

I can't answer your question as I have no desire to "find blame with t2 diabetics". I will reiterate my opinion just once more. I do believe a proportion of people, through their lifestyle choices, are liable to be to blame for their condition. I do not single out T2's, as has been previously stated.

I firmly believe that it is important this is acknowledged to help improve a vast array of issues in our society.
 
Robinredbreast said:
Peace and goodwill to all, it is, after all Christmas ..................:angelic:
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Except.....Jesus wasn't born in December, it was probably September and the Christians just stole the festival from the pagans. lol, I guess I got the argumentative gene from my Dad.

I'll get my coat:rolleyes:

Merry Christmas :)
 
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Sid Bonkers said:
Well IMHO Scardoc you are missing one very important point and that is that this is a support forum for diabetics, yes there are all sorts of forums on the www, forums for people who like a particular football team or make/model of car or a pastime such as cycling or fishing but a support forum by definition is for the mutual support of diabetics what it is not here for is to apportion blame to a section of the community ie some of you ate yourselves to diabetes, that type of statement has no place on a support forum as all it does is makes people feel bad about themselves.

Support forums are there for the benefit of other like minded individuals to try to help not to point fingers.

And of course despite all that the reasons why people develop T2 diabetes are wide and varied and not yet fully understood and whilst obesity may be a marker it is not a cause as only 20% of obese people will develop diabetes, so statements like that do no good what-so-ever and can only help make people feel bad about themselves the complete opposite of what this support forum is here to do.
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Sid, I do believe you are not as Bonkers as your name suggests and agree with the nature of this forum. It offers enormous help to all who tread it's hallowed internet space and I have benefitted from that support on a number of occasions. I have also offered that support.

However, it is also about discussion and you can't limit that or censor that unless someone is deliberately bullying, disrespecting or acting in a manner that breaks the forum rules.
 
Scardoc said:
@pavlosn

Again, I have to take great exception to your comment above.

I firmly believe that it is important this is acknowledged to help improve a vast array of issues in our society.
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What I don't think you are 'getting' is that we are all different and although in a professional sense we maybe should acknowledge,that it may have been lifestyle that has contributed to our diabetes in some cases, this is not, repeat not in my view the forum to be getting this message out there to people already having to cope with significant lifestyle changes after diagnosis, it will not help them move forward if they also have to carry a load of guilt as well.

What we do forget, is even then after diagnosis, some people are unable to even accommodate any such change and don't even acknowledge their diabetes.

I like a good debate, but it is Christmas Eve after all, had enough..................

Merry xmas to you all.......................:)
 
zand said:
@Scardoc I'm interested as to why the bit of blame and lots of shame helped you.

For me it just drove me deeper into depression because I was already doing my best. I didn't need blame or shame I just needed someone to say 'low carb' to me and I would have done it. The depression just made things worse as I lacked the energy or the will to cook proper meals. It didn't help that a nurse from my surgery 'caught' me leaving a chip shop one day, so at my next appointment she laughed when I said I was trying to lose weight. The fish and chips were for my sons and husband as both boys had football training at different times that evening and it was hard to find the time to cook for them and deliver and collect them from training. My husband always got home from work between 8 and 9 pm in those days. I had already eaten a 'healthy' low fat meal. I have been wrongly judged by people like this on many occasions.

So was it just a case of 'head in the sand ' for you?
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@zand
I wouldn’t ever describe myself as having being depressed at any stage in life. I didn’t have much in my life at that time and fell into doing what people around me at work were doing. Drinking most nights. I’d always been active but wasn’t at this point and the weight gain and the possible beginnings of a “beer belly” did make me feel ashamed. Who else could I blame? Now, that was me and yes, thank God I have never suffered depression as so many people do or it could have become a downward spiral.
Now, I am nothing special and I know there are so many people out there the same who choose that lifestyle for no other reason than they enjoy it. And that is their prerogative.
They are the lucky one’s though who have that choice and who, unlike you, don’t have the added burdens.
 
zand said:
Except.....Jesus wasn't born in December, it was probably September and the Christians just stole the festival from the pagans. lol, I guess I got the argumentative gene from my Dad.

I'll get my coat:rolleyes:

Merry Christmas :)
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As I wasn't there at the time Zand, I wont be commenting, just trying to add a little peace and goodwill, that's all ............. :wideyed: :oops:
 
As no one in his right mind would ever suggest that an autoimmune disease like t1 is a matter of lifestyle choice, I am not sure who other than t2s you may have referring to when talking about blaming and shaming.

As a t2 myself, I think my own personal experience tells me that a newly diagnosed t2 does a good job himself of experiencing blame and shame as you put it, whether rightly or wrongly, that he does not need these negative feelings reinforced by anyone else.

I find the whole essence of your blame and shame argument not only offensive, but also insensitive, judgmental and more worryingly potentially highly dangerous and harmful to the likely users of these forum, some of which may be in particularly vulnerable state of minds. More so because they are obviously targeted at t2s by someone who is not t2 himself.

Nonetheless, although I may disagree with your opinions very strongly, to put it mildly, they are your opinions.

And it is Christmas, so

Seasons greetings to you.
 
@Scardoc I wasn't going to respond to this topic, and then you raised the point that you are T1 and that it was blame and shame that did you good...

As a T1 who was diagnosed as a kid, I find it surprising that anyone would consider that blame and shame are important factors in handling and dealing with diabetes. I also find your assertion that T1 is caused by lifestyle choice to be somewhat astounding!

Weight gain and a beer belly have as little to do with Diabetes as your hair falling out due to a predisposition to baldness. There are many men with both those problems and no diabetes. Your posts do come across as though you have a number of issues relating to your diabetes. I have absolutely no doubt that T1 is not linked to lifestyle and diet (and there is evidence to support this). I do not know whether you are a juvenile onset or adult onset, and that may also play a part in how you perceive your diabetes to have developed.

As for T2? Well, neither you nor I are really in a position to quote gospel and verse on it as neither of us is a T2. We only have the observations and statistics to work from. And those tell us that there are only correlations and not causation. There is a very public view that it is a form of self-created condition, however there is no direct evidence to support this. If causation comes to be proven, then it's a different situation. Much has already been said on this topic so I wont' push it further.

Ultimately though, if you believe that eating the wrong foods and drinking too much is what caused your T1 diabetes, that is something that no-one is stopping you from doing, however I would countenance that you may be looking in the wrong place and have lived for however long it has been blaming yourself without need.

If this is the case then it may be worth reassessing how you look at your diabetes and bearing in mind that our perception of others is most often a reflection of ourselves, for good or for bad.
 
tim2000s said:
@tim2000s

As a T1 who was diagnosed as a kid, I find it surprising that anyone would consider that blame and shame are important factors in handling and dealing with diabetes. I also find your assertion that T1 is caused by lifestyle choice to be somewhat astounding!
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Whoa! You've picked that up all wrong @tim2000s. I said a bit of blame and shame did me good where weight gain was concerned but did not connect that to my T1 in any way, shape or form.

That was a number of years before I was ever diagnosed. Best to clear that up quickly!!

"As for T2? Well, neither you nor I are really in a position to quote gospel and verse on it as neither of us is a T2. We only have the observations and statistics to work from. And those tell us that there are only correlations and not causation. There is a very public view that it is a form of self-created condition, however there is no direct evidence to support this. If causation comes to be proven, then it's a different situation. Much has already been said on this topic so I wont' push it further."

This paragraph is very well put and one I would agree with entirely. What I express is an opinion and not one that I have ever applied to every T2.
 
Robinredbreast said:
As I wasn't there at the time Zand, I wont be commenting, just trying to add a little peace and goodwill, that's all ............. :wideyed: :oops:
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Sorry @Robinredbreast , I know you were simply wishing us a lovely holiday, but some of us will always squabble over something won't we? (Oops, have I just done an 'us and them' thing again?:oops:)

Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to you too. :) I'll leave this thread now, that should make things a bit more peaceful round here.;)
 
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pavlosn said:
As no one in his right mind would ever suggest that an autoimmune disease like t1 is a matter of lifestyle choice, I am not sure who other than t2s you may have referring to when talking about blaming and shaming.

As a t2 myself, I think my own personal experience tells me that a newly diagnosed t2 does a good job himself of experiencing blame and shame as you put it, whether rightly or wrongly, that he does not need these negative feelings reinforced by anyone else.

I find the whole essence of your blame and shame argument not only offensive, but also insensitive, judgmental and more worryingly potentially highly dangerous and harmful to the likely users of these forum, some of which may be in particularly vulnerable state of minds. More so because they are obviously targeted at t2s by someone who is not t2 himself.

Nonetheless, although I may disagree with your opinions very strongly, to put it mildly, they are your opinions.

And it is Christmas, so

Seasons greetings to you.
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This this and this
Eloquently put Pavlosn
I also notice that an older thread about this sort of discussion has just been reopened by a new member perhaps someone has an agenda perhaps not
Speaking from personal experience when I found this forum I joined because of the positive attitude all members had and were willing to share, if I were newly arrived now some of the posts would put me off joining.
Let's get back to what we do best and that's supporting diabetics of all persuasions and leave the petty bickering behind

Merry Xmas to one and all
Sancho and the dog Gus
 
@Scardoc I think you have a certain way of writing that has allowed many people to read this topic and infer a very different meaning from that which you purport to be putting forward. I can't say whether this is deliberate or not, however, you have said what you have said. When inferences are made, you do seem to be coming back with statements that the inferences are not how you should have been interpreted, so on this occasion I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Mods, while it is always good to have a discursive approach to all aspects of diabetes, I believe that the inferences being drawn from the various writing styles in this topic should result in it being closed. I don't believe that it is actually serving a purpose, other than for various members to violently agree whilst leaving a bad taste in very many mouths.
 
pavlosn said:
As no one in his right mind would ever suggest that an autoimmune disease like t1 is a matter of lifestyle choice, I am not sure who other than t2s you may have referring to when talking about blaming and shaming.

As a t2 myself, I think my own personal experience tells me that a newly diagnosed t2 does a good job himself of experiencing blame and shame as you put it, whether rightly or wrongly, that he does not need these negative feelings reinforced by anyone else.

I find the whole essence of your blame and shame argument not only offensive, but also insensitive, judgmental and more worryingly potentially highly dangerous and harmful to the likely users of these forum, some of which may be in particularly vulnerable state of minds. More so because they are obviously targeted at t2s by someone who is not t2 himself.

Nonetheless, although I may disagree with your opinions very strongly, to put it mildly, they are your opinions.

And it is Christmas, so

Seasons greetings to you.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand the essence of my opinion and the danger in not acknowledging personal responsibility. It's not targeting anyone in particular as has been clearly stated more than once.

There is room in the world for differing opinions and the tolerance of them.
 
tim2000s said:
@tim2000s


Mods, while it is always good to have a discursive approach to all aspects of diabetes, I believe that the inferences being drawn from the various writing styles in this topic should result in it being closed. I don't believe that it is actually serving a purpose, other than for various members to violently agree whilst leaving a bad taste in very many mouths.
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@tim2000s

Hopefully I can beat the mods if they bow to your request! There is no agenda to my writing style, it is what it is. The internet is always open to misinterpretation as you cannot detect tone in typed words as you can in spoken words.

Believe me, my opinion is very simple and it is being misconstrued by others because it is always very popular to jump on an opinion that may be controversial or not in keeping with the norm.

I sincerely hope this thread is not closed. There are comments on here, targeted at myself, which are, in my view, not fair or backed up sufficiently. I have not aimed anything at any one person individually and merely attempted to justify my opinion. Healthy debate.

Start closing threads from inferences being drawn and you will have a very quiet forum indeed.
 
I believe I understand plenty.

If you are now interested in my own opinion is that the moderators need to take a look at this thread and consider if it serves any useful purpose on this forum.

In my opinion it does not.

Pavlos
 
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