Carbs And Inflammation

[kokhongw]

Hi,
This post, and several of the following have been moved from https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/low-carb-diets-dangerous.155403/page-6#post-1861965 where they were derailing the discussion on whether low carb diets are harmful, after a recent study made that claim.

THIS thread, as the title says is about whether carbs cause inflammation.

Now over to @kokhongw whose post started the discussion on inflammation

Regards,
Brunneria

-------------------------------

We tend to forget that carbs are highly insulinogenic and inflammatory...especially for the obese...
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/blog-entry/il6-and-tnfα-post-meal-response.1899/

 

[Oldvatr]

We tend to forget that carbs are highly insulinogenic and inflammatory...especially for the obese...
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/blog-entry/il6-and-tnfα-post-meal-response.1899/

Carbs insulinogenic - Yes, I agree, Carbs are inflammatory? no I would disgree with that. I think that belongs in the realms of the fitness blogworld with the detox diets etc. We are designed to run on carbs, and in fact our body is fuelled directly by what is essentially acetic acid, which is one if the simplest carbs going.

I think it is hyperinsulaemia that is not good for us diabetics, and this is a body self regulation issue but not inflammation per se.

 

[kokhongw]

Carbs insulinogenic - Yes, I agree, Carbs are inflammatory? no I would disgree with that. I think that belongs in the realms of the fitness blogworld with the detox diets etc. We are designed to run on carbs, and in fact our body is fuelled directly by what is essentially acetic acid, which is one if the simplest carbs going.

I think it is hyperinsulaemia that is not good for us diabetics, and this is a body self regulation issue but not inflammation per se.

From the post meal serum results. If it is due to insulin only, then the high protein meal which illicit elevated insulin response should have triggered comparative IL6 and TNF-Alpha, but it didn't. Or have I misread the charts...

Only carbs which triggered high glucose AND insulin response has the (lower) IL6 and (elevated) TNF-Alpha response.

 

[Oldvatr]

From the post meal serum results. If it is due to insulin only, then the high protein meal which illicit elevated insulin response should have triggered comparative IL6 and TNF-Alpha, but it didn't. Or have I misread the charts...

Only carbs which triggered high glucose AND insulin response has the (lower) IL6 and (elevated) TNF-Alpha response.

This seems to be a normal body response and a proper signalling pathway that is currently not believed to be harmful or a sign of inflammation.
https://www.rndsystems.com/resources/articles/role-il-6-energy-expenditure

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2012/238056/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19567922

 

[Brunneria]

@Oldvatr

Some carb containing foods are most definitely inflammatory for me.
Grains, esp gluten containing ones cause marked inflammatory reactions.
Starchy root veg much less so, but they cause water retention and gas, so they don’t come out far ahead!

However, i do not know, and lack the laboratory to test, whether it is the carb in the grain, or the grain itself causing the inflammation - not that it matters. The carb food goes in, and the imflammation happens.

So yes, eating carbs causes definite inflammatory reactions in me - guts, joints and tendons are all affected.

I am of course delighted when other people don’t experience this, but that isn’t going to stop my body from reacting in this manner, so yes, carbs do cause inflammation for some of us.

 

[bulkbiker]

Carbs insulinogenic - Yes, I agree, Carbs are inflammatory?

Surely if we can agree that carbs are insulogenic and hyperinsulinaemia is inflammatory then there could well be a connection between carbs and inflammation?

 

[Oldvatr]

@Oldvatr

Some carb containing foods are most definitely inflammatory for me.
Grains, esp gluten containing ones cause marked inflammatory reactions.
Starchy root veg much less so, but they cause water retention and gas, so they don’t come out far ahead!

However, i do not know, and lack the laboratory to test, whether it is the carb in the grain, or the grain itself causing the inflammation - not that it matters. The carb food goes in, and the imflammation happens.

So yes, eating carbs causes definite inflammatory reactions in me - guts, joints and tendons are all affected.

I am of course delighted when other people don’t experience this, but that isn’t going to stop my body from reacting in this manner, so yes, carbs do cause inflammation for some of us.

I find that fat especially double cream does that to me, but carbs only push my bgl high. I was running in the 20's to 30's (mmol/l) without any noticeable effects, in fact I felt great, So I am lucky in that I am gluten tolerant. I would not say that carbs as a class of nutrient is inherently evil that it causes general inflammation. It could be high glucose levels doing it.

 

[Brunneria]

I would not say that carbs as a class of nutrient is inherently evil that it causes general inflannation. It could be high glucose levels doing it.

Not in my case. Thankfully the Libre has given me that reassurance.

 

[millenium]

@Oldvatr

Some carb containing foods are most definitely inflammatory for me.
Grains, esp gluten containing ones cause marked inflammatory reactions.
Starchy root veg much less so, but they cause water retention and gas, so they don’t come out far ahead!

However, i do not know, and lack the laboratory to test, whether it is the carb in the grain, or the grain itself causing the inflammation - not that it matters. The carb food goes in, and the imflammation happens.

So yes, eating carbs causes definite inflammatory reactions in me - guts, joints and tendons are all affected.

I am of course delighted when other people don’t experience this, but that isn’t going to stop my body from reacting in this manner, so yes, carbs do cause inflammation for some of us.

How do u tell u get inflammation from eating a type of carb or not?

 

[Guzzler]

How do u tell u get inflammation from eating a type of carb or not?

Usually by doing an elimination diet.

 

[Oldvatr]

Surely if we can agree that carbs are insulogenic and hyperinsulinaemia is inflammatory then there could well be a connection between carbs and inflammation?

If you define inflammation purely as IL-6 becoming elevated then yes it would be by that definition, but I linked to 3 different studies that confirmed the IL-6 as rising for both carbs and proteins, but without other concomittant markers for disease inflammation becoming present. Although IL-6 is classed as a leucocyte it seems to have another function, Maybe it gets kicked off to raise insulin levels either as part of the Stage 2 Insulin Response or the immune system flagging a warning and that raising insulin may be a protective measure to reduce blood sugars. Certainly a meal with protein or carbs could be considered invasive and about to upset the homeostasis, hence a response. But it seems the endocrinologists are saying it is not in itself a cause of inflammation, merely a response.

They seem to be saying that IL-6 is not a pure leucocyte in that it is not just affected by the immune system kcking into action, but has a more general body function that is normal, and as such should be downgraded to being a signal enzyme only.

To me as a simpleton, the term inflammatory implies that the body immune system is under attack, and I cannot square that with carbs, Sorry.

 

[Brunneria]

How do u tell u get inflammation from eating a type of carb or not?

If I eat certain carbs (grains and gluten being the worst offenders) then my hand and knee joints become painful, the tendons on the inside of my wrists and in my feet become very sore (even picking up a book will hurt), and the pain will be worst the day after the carb eating. Then it will ease off slowly over a week or so and disappear - until I next eat the carbs. During the same timescale my digestive tract is not happy (I will spare you the details).

 

[lucylocket61]

If you define inflammation purely as IL-6 becoming elevated then yes it would be by that definition, but I linked to 3 different studies that confirmed the IL-6 as rising for both carbs and proteins, but without other concomittant markers for disease inflammation becoming present. Although IL-6 is classed as a leucocyte it seems to have another function, Maybe it gets kicked off to raise insulin levels either as part of the Stage 2 Insulin Response or the immune system flagging a warning and that raising insulin may be a protective measure to reduce blood sugars. Certainly a meal with protein or carbs could be considered invasive and about to upset the homeostasis, hence a response. But it seems the endocrinologists are saying it is not in itself a cause of inflammation, merely a response.

They seem to be saying that IL-6 is not a pure leucocyte in that it is not just affected by the immune system kcking into action, but has a more general body function that is normal, and as such should be downgraded to being a signal enzyme only.

To me as a simpleton, the term inflammatory implies that the body immune system is under attack, and I cannot square that with carbs, Sorry.

my muscles ache, my fibro-type pain starts, my gums feel sore and my bones ache if i eat many carbs. it doesnt happen with any other food type. So, for me, through a process of elimination, I know that carbs cause inflammation for me. My inflammation markers have decreased a lot since low carbing and if I fall off the wagon I know about it for about 3 days afterwards.

 

[kokhongw]

This seems to be a normal body response and a proper signalling pathway that is currently not believed to be harmful or a sign of inflammation.
https://www.rndsystems.com/resources/articles/role-il-6-energy-expenditure

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2012/238056/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19567922

Thanks for the links and alternative viewpoints. It does seems inflammatory response and chronic inflammation could be a lot more complex and contentious...and dependant on the underlying metabolic/immune condition of the individual. Will have to read more into this...

For now...fasting should be the safest...

Edited by mod to remove request for a these posts to be moved to a new thread - because it has now been done.

 

[Oldvatr]

If I eat certain carbs (grains and gluten being the worst offenders) then my hand and knee joints become painful, the tendons on the inside of my wrists and in my feet become very sore (even picking up a book will hurt), and the pain will be worst the day after the carb eating. Then it will ease off slowly over a week or so and disappear - until I next eat the carbs. During the same timescale my digestive tract is not happy (I will spare you the details).

Sounds a lot like Arthritis to me. Classic reaction to grains and refined flours. Now arthritis IS inflammatory, But according to the Arthritis Association website, the recommended diet for curing arthritis is alnost WFPB, i.e. whole grain plant based. I wonder who they are in bed with? I would say sounds fishy, but then again they do recommend omega-3 oils and avoid omega-6 oils too ( so not pure WFPB) , but otherwise avoid animal products. What planet? Seems that other sites go for Paleo or Mediterranean diets with added olive oil, but none so far advocating low carb. So the reaction you are experiencing may be related to this disease.

 

[Indy51]

Just in response to @Oldvatr - various forms of arthritis do seem to have an autoimmune component and that can be in reaction to our own microbiota. When I was reading about HLA-B27 and the various associated conditions, there was mention of klebsiella and the treatment being a restricted starch diet. I think this kind of information will only expand the more research they do into the microbiome. Diet is probably going to play an even bigger part in our health than we now believe.

Edited by mod to remove request for a these posts to be moved to a new thread - because it has now been done.

 

[millenium]

Thankst for the links and alternative viewpoints. Perhaps this would be better discussed in a separate thread so that it does not derail the original discussion. It does seems inflammatory response and chronic inflammation could be a lot more complex and contentious...and dependant on the underlying metabolic/immune condition of the individual. Will have to read more into this...

For now...fasting should be the safest...

There are other ways to reduce inflammation like increasing the omega 3 to 6 ratio.

 

[Brunneria]

Sounds a lot like Arthritis to me. Classic reaction to grains and refined flours. Now arthritis IS inflammatory, But according to the Arthritis Association website, the recommended diet for curing arthritis is alnost WFPB, i.e. whole grain plant based. I wonder who they are in bed with? I would say sounds fishy, but then again they do recommend omega-3 oils and avoid omega-6 oils too ( so not pure WFPB) , but otherwise avoid animal products. What planet? Seems that other sites go for Paleo or Mediterranean diets with added olive oil, but none so far advocating low carb. So the reaction you are experiencing may be related to this disease.

It doesn’t matter whether it is arthritis or not (although I don’t think it is since it is affecting my tendons and digestion as well as joints).

The point I am making is that, for me, eating certain carbs cause an inflammatory response. And judging by other answers on this thread, I am not the only person to experience this.

 

[zand]

It doesn’t matter whether it is arthritis or not (although I don’t think it is since it is affecting my tendons and digestion as well as joints).

The point I am making is that, for me, eating certain carbs cause an inflammatory response. And judging by other answers on this thread, I am not the only person to experience this.

You're not When I broke my wrist in the winter the Xray showed up that I have arthritic thumbs (hereditary) I haven't had pains in them for years thanks to low carbing. I had completely forgotten that they used to hurt until the XRay reminded me. I can't help my genes, but I can reduce carbs to save me needing painkillers.

 

[bulkbiker]

To me as a simpleton

Fase modesty from the two paragraphs above!