Carbs And Inflammation

[Oldvatr]

Fase modesty from the two paragraphs above!

I mean that I have a mantra that I keep in mind which is KISS (Keep It Simple, Stoopid) whenever I read a report that either I have written or is someone else's work.

If what I read uses too many unusual words, or takes more than a paragraph to make a point then I start to smell bullshoot. Often undergraduates or students write in that style to impress the exam board or their professor, or their boss, but it becomes clear they are using twisted thinking to disguise the fact that they are unsure of what it is they are saying, i,e, confuse and obscure to sex it up and disguise those uncertainties with pseudo science.

I like simple.

 

[Oldvatr]

In the thread that this one was moved from. the hypothesis being discussed was that low carb diets are dangerous. The proper counter argument is that carbs are dangerous. If carbs are indeed proven to be inflammatory in the true sense that eating carbs triggers the body's immune system to act to fight them as a foreign body invading, then that forms a valid part of the original argument. However, if the response is not actually from the immune system per se, then it becomes part of the normal working of the body, and is how we are designed to operate, thus making the carb-causes-pain scenario due to other mechanisms in the body that are not in themselves metabolism or diet related. Hopef ully this is what we will discuss in more detail here.

I have found 3 reports from endocrinologists that suggest that the IL-6 marker of immunity being in action is actually a normal response forming part of the normal metabollism pathway, and so the term inflammatory is being incorrectly applied. So far we have anecdotal evidence supplied, but no research to back it up. Has anyone got any suitable source info that confirms immune system fighting carbs?

We accept that T1D is a result of an auto immune disorder, but is it resulting from a carb trigger? I believe that there is perhaps a better marker for immune system induced inflammation which is the C-Reactive protein (CRP), and so we could actually say we are feeling CRP and mean it.. Any thoughts on this, any reports on this?

 

[Guzzler]

As a sufferer of chronic pain for the last two decades I can attest to carbohydrates being a root cause of inflammation in my case. I had been on increasing dosages of pain medications including NSAID for those years. Since reducing carbs (and here I cite a definite reaction to the wheat in bread, the soy in low carb bread, possibly the gluten and most probably the seed oils) I have experienced a noticeable diminution of inflammatory pain and the incidence of flare ups. The result has been that while I have not been able to lower the dosage of pain killing meds I have avoided needing to seek higher doses. Inevitably I will need need stronger medications but LCHF seems to be stalling/slowing the rate of increasing pain levels.

 

[bulkbiker]

I mean that I have a mantra that I keep in mind which is KISS (Keep It Simple, Stoopid) whenever I read a report that either I have written or is someone else's work.

If what I read uses too many unusual words, or takes more than a paragraph to make a point then I start to smell bullshoot. Often undergraduates or students write in that style to impress the exam board or their professor, or their boss, but it becomes clear they are using twisted thinking to disguise the fact that they are unsure of what it is they are saying, i,e, confuse and obscure to sex it up and disguise those uncertainties with pseudo science.

I like simple.

In that case I must be a complete simpleton.. I have read all your three links and afraid I'm still not much the wiser.. although I was surprised to see a high fat meal in the second study contained white bread! whereas the high carb meal had wholemeal...odd to say the least.

 

[Oldvatr]

In that case I must be a complete simpleton.. I have read all your three links and afraid I'm still not much the wiser.. although I was surprised to see a high fat meal in the second study contained white bread! whereas the high carb meal had wholemeal...odd to say the least.

Unfortunately endocrinologists tend to dress their mutton up as lamb, and love to throw complicated formulae and terms into their melting pots. It preserves their mystique.

I must admit that I did a speed read of those reports, and did not take them apart for deep scrutiny. However, I am currently researching the opposite POV, in that carbs are shown to increase CRP rather than IL-6 and I am having difficulty finding any research that supports that POV. However, I have found some studies done by the keto fraternity (Voleck, Atkins et al) that do seem to show that a keto diet lowers CRP, except while losing weight where it seems to rise. There is also some reports that a carnivore diet also reduces CRP (Atkins again ) thus supporting the carbs maintains inflammation (but may not be the cause) hypothesis.

 

[bulkbiker]

Unfortunately endocrinologists tend to dress their mutton up as lamb, and love to throw complicated formulae and terms into their melting pots. It preserves their mystique.

I must admit that I did a speed read of those reports, and did not take them apart for deep scrutiny. However, I am currently researching the opposite POV, in that carbs are shown to increase CRP rather than IL-6 and I am having difficulty finding any research that supports that POV. However, I have found some studies done by the keto fraternity (Voleck, Atkins et al) that do seem to show that a keto diet lowers CRP, except while losing weight where it seems to rise. There is also some reports that a carnivore diet also reduces CRP (Atkins again ) thus supporting the carbs maintains inflammation (but may not be the cause) hypothesis.

Thank you... I'm glad at least one of us here can understand it.. Maybe we should get some full time "science" to comprehendable interpreters...

 

[Indy51]

Just googled blood tests for inflammation and got the following back:

Inflammation and blood proteins. Erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR), C-reactive protein (CRP) and plasma viscosity (PV) blood tests are commonly used to detect increase in protein in the blood. In this way they are used as markers of inflammation.

 

[Indy51]

Another one:

https://drjockers.com/top-5-blood-tests-inflammation/

 

[Oldvatr]

Thank you... I'm glad at least one of us here can understand it.. Maybe we should get some full time "science" to comprehendable interpreters...

Having struggled through many of this type of report, I have managed to understand their language a bit easier now, so it is less of a mind-blown experience. It is however, still a mind-numbing experience. Thank God I am not an endocrinbologist. it is worse than being an accountant IMO.

 

[zand]

There's nothing wrong with being an accountant....

 

[Oldvatr]

The problem with nutrition research is that the web is full of bloggers/vloggers/ guru's/ so called experts, and magazine editors trying to fill their pages each issue. There is not so much pure research to call on and even that is often tainted by not being independant of vested interests. There are the weight watchers lobby, the weight lifters lobby, the fitness fanatics, the detox diet specialists, then the special interest groups associated with illnesses and conditions all wanting to offer the ultimate solution - the superfood / diet plan that will make them rich or at least fund their book sales.

 

[Indy51]

Lots and lots of astroturfers too. Willett and his Harvard group are linked very strongly with the dreaded Dr David Katz and the vegan docs.

 

[millenium]

Higher grain=higher carb, higher carb=higher bgl, higher bgl=higher inflammation.

 

[lucylocket61]

Sounds a lot like Arthritis to me. Classic reaction to grains and refined flours. Now arthritis IS inflammatory, But according to the Arthritis Association website, the recommended diet for curing arthritis is alnost WFPB, i.e. whole grain plant based. I wonder who they are in bed with? I would say sounds fishy, but then again they do recommend omega-3 oils and avoid omega-6 oils too ( so not pure WFPB) , but otherwise avoid animal products. What planet? Seems that other sites go for Paleo or Mediterranean diets with added olive oil, but none so far advocating low carb. So the reaction you are experiencing may be related to this disease.

I have had the whole range of arthritis testing, I do not have it. And the inflammation is in place like tendons and inner ear too, and my skin flares up with acne. I do not have these problems when I low carb.

 

[lucylocket61]

In the thread that this one was moved from. the hypothesis being discussed was that low carb diets are dangerous. The proper counter argument is that carbs are dangerous. If carbs are indeed proven to be inflammatory in the true sense that eating carbs triggers the body's immune system to act to fight them as a foreign body invading, then that forms a valid part of the original argument. However, if the response is not actually from the immune system per se, then it becomes part of the normal working of the body, and is how we are designed to operate, thus making the carb-causes-pain scenario due to other mechanisms in the body that are not in themselves metabolism or diet related. Hopef ully this is what we will discuss in more detail here.

I have found 3 reports from endocrinologists that suggest that the IL-6 marker of immunity being in action is actually a normal response forming part of the normal metabollism pathway, and so the term inflammatory is being incorrectly applied. So far we have anecdotal evidence supplied, but no research to back it up. Has anyone got any suitable source info that confirms immune system fighting carbs?

We accept that T1D is a result of an auto immune disorder, but is it resulting from a carb trigger? I believe that there is perhaps a better marker for immune system induced inflammation which is the C-Reactive protein (CRP), and so we could actually say we are feeling CRP and mean it.. Any thoughts on this, any reports on this?

anecdotes are useful. Anecdotes cause questions, and turn into research. Most research begins with anecdote. lets not dismiss anecdotes as irrelevant or lesser than research.

Let us also remember that we are all different, so the anecdote is the truth of ONE person, shared with others, to highlight a potential problem that others may wish to take into account, based on the experiences of that person.

As the anecdotes mount up, a trend appears. This hopefully leads to research. Anecdote is both true and valuable, especially in new explorations of this nature.

Anecdotes, joined up and explored by medics, are what started the whole low carb for type 2's in the first place. I have been here for 6 years and seen it develop.

 

[lucylocket61]

Just googled blood tests for inflammation and got the following back:

Inflammation and blood proteins. Erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR), C-reactive protein (CRP) and plasma viscosity (PV) blood tests are commonly used to detect increase in protein in the blood. In this way they are used as markers of inflammation.

my son was recently in A & E, we thought he was going to die, its been scary. But those tests were part of the range of stuff they used to track the problem and treat him.

I also have my inflammation tested that way as part of my routine blood tests.

 

[Guzzler]

I'm really stepping outside of my comfort zone here but doesn't the Maillard Reaction speak to this question of inflammation in humans? The dysregulation of metabolic processes in those with T2 that cause prolonged, raised blood glucose levels end up with glycated end products plus (I'm struggling here) particular proteins that cause browning (a natural consequence of aging).
Now I must go lay down in a darkened room...

 

[Indy51]

I'm really stepping outside of my comfort zone here but doesn't the Maillard Reaction speak to this question of inflammation in humans? The dysregulation of metabolic processes in those with T2 that cause prolonged, raised blood glucose levels end up with glycated end products plus (I'm struggling here) particular proteins that cause browning (a natural consequence of aging).
Now I must go lay down in a darkened room...

Yep, advanced glycation end products aka AGE's.
One of the really surprising things that happened to me when I went LCHF - I had 2 quite large AGE spots on the backs of my hands - both actually shrank and eventually dropped off like a scab would. Blew my mind at the time - and have never recurred.

 

[Oldvatr]

Lots and lots of astroturfers too. Willett and his Harvard group are linked very strongly with the dreaded Dr David Katz and the vegan docs.

Unfortunately the AHA use Harvard as their prime source of research evidence and it shows in their recommendations including whole grains Eatwell (ADA). There was a similar study on diets done at a US hospital for women in Boston (Brigham BWH) which is a n offshoot of Harvard Medical School, and guess who led the team, and guess what conclusion they came up with........ A pre-run for the article we were discussing in that other thread.

So although the Harvard Nurses Study is from the same Uni, it seems to be under control of a different department, and it is different in that their data is open source, and independant researchers ar encouraged to use that data for their own reports. Seems to be a healthier setup there, which is why I refer to that particular study quite often.

 

[Oldvatr]

Yep, advanced glycation end products aka AGE's.
One of the really surprising things that happened to me when I went LCHF - I had 2 quite large AGE spots on the backs of my hands - both actually shrank and eventually dropped off like a scab would. Blew my mind at the time - and have never recurred.

Are AGE spots the same as liver spots that are associated with getting older?