Type 2 Carbs And The Doctor/dn

bulkbiker

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Who the hell do you think you are?

We think (know) we are people who have taken the time to read and educate ourselves about the condition we are living with.
Unless a Doctor or Nurse has the same condition then they are pretty unlikely to be specialists in the field. We have discovered by questioning that some of them are very ill informed about (especially) Type 2 diabetes and the best way to control it. That is certainly not a blanket statement but when the advice given out by the "powers that be" is so bad then we have to take control. When you ask a GP about the most recent treatments for your condition and they look blankly at you what should you do? Carry on taking their advice or find out for yourself. The "Doctor as God" view has been found wanting by many who find themselves here. We have decided to become "Expert Patients" instead of blind followers. If you question your doc and they come up with a bad or ill informed answer do you really expect people to continue to believe in them?
 

Resurgam

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If I had gone on taking the medication as prescribed I'd be unable to function as an independent Human being - I'd be in a nursing home wearing a nappy, or I'd be dead - I was thinking of suicide. Not often, but during the last week before ditching the tablets it did cross my mind that I'd be better off out of the situation completely.
When my doctor phoned up a week or so after the blood test which resulted in diagnosis he assured me there was nothing wrong, just a routine appointment, then casually dropped the bombshell, ten days later that I was a very bad diabetic.
 
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Deleted member 308541

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What do you say when you are lectured about eating carbs and how important they are.
That does not happen at my private GP's practise, and/or with the private CDE I have seen on a couple of occasions.

As I have said several time before on this forum, I give them a months worth of print outs from my Abbot meter log, and three of the charts it generates. This only happens every six months when I get my NDSS strip request form signed off on,

I cannot see the point of getting worked up over this...

Edited: Extra info.
 
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Brunneria

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Who the hell do you think you are?

That is a really good question.
So i shall answer it.

I am someone who was left, for over 20 years with an undiagnosed, untreated prolactinoma and polycystic ovary syndrome.
Every time i appealed for help to my doctor, i was told to ‘lose weight. Fat women don’t have normal periods, so you know what to do, don’t you?’
Good job i never wanted children, isn’t it? Because I couldn’t have had them if i had wanted - without treatment that was so dismissively denied to me.
Fortunately that doctor retired, but it took a random meeting with a female consultant before any investigations were conducted and the diagnosis and treatment achieved.

Other occasions when the NHS has failed me include
‘Back pain? Take some anti-inflammatories and rest it’. That was a displaced sacro-illeac joint. A chiropractor corrected the displacement in a single treatment, after 2 years of constant pain.
‘Oh, you have sprained your ankle. Strap it up for a day or two, then walk on it as much as possible’. That was a dislocated ankle that made me scream when i put my weight on it. That was sorted by an osteopath.
‘Sore eyes? Looks like you are squinting. Go to an optician and get an eye test.’ That was an allergic reaction to mascara.
‘Reactive hypoglycaemia? Never heard of it. All in your mind. Have an antidepressant. And some antianxiety medication. Don’t want it? Oh dear. That makes you non-compliant. I will just mark that on your notes for posterity.’ Sorted the RH myself by learning which foods triggered the hypos, and avoid them. Not in the mind at all, as my glucometer will testify.

I am also someone who lost a good friend to breast cancer because ‘pregnant women often get lumpy breasts, don’t worry about it.’ She died when her baby was about 6 months old.

So my first reaction when i learned my blood glucose was too high was NOT to trot trustingly into the same dismissive arms of the NHS. It was to educate myself. Learn about the condition, about treatment, about complications, life expectancy, insulin resistance and diet.
And i am so glad I did. I now have excellent understanding of nutrition, feel better, and am very happy with my blood glucose control. I also have much lower insulin resistance than if I was injecting the stuff several times a day. That will serve me well in future years, when my odds of strokes and heart attacks will be reduced by having less insulin floating around.

If you are so sure of your ways, why are you going to your doctor, nurse, etc. Go and treat yourselves and don't waste the professionals time which could be spent on other patients.

I do treat myself. Every meal. Every day. And the last conversation I had with my (previous) doc, he denied I had ever had raised blood glucose. Apparently reading my notes was too much bother for him to look at.
Of course, if he had bothered to read those notes he would have realised that I have had pre-diabetic and diabetic blood glucose test results (fasting and HbA1c) for 20+ years.

Why on earth would I trust my health to such a person?
I have since changed doctors, but my default setting will (through bitter experience) be to learn about a health condition, and where possible, treat myself. And i will never blindly follow medical advice ever again. It has caused me too much pain and ill health in the past.

If I break my leg or need surgery, then there is nowhere other than an NHS hospital that I want to be.
Most other health issues? My doc is not my first port of call, and i won’t ever trust what they suggest until I have verified it with a reputable information source.

@Sani Thomas
I am delighted that you have had excellent healthcare, so far.
But I don’t think that your experience gives you the right to criticise me for handling my health the way I do. Not everyone has had your experiences. I wonder (just speculation, of course) if your experiences have been influenced by you being a professional nurse. They probably don’t patronise you so much.
 
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Mike d

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This forum has turned to a forum for low carbing. And in my experience if you dare to express different opinion, they jump on you and make you feel tiny.

Interesting take on things ... carry on
 

Resurgam

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Oh yes - the lose weight and it will get better dismissal - I had those as well.
My bad back after the second baby was excruciating - luckily an almost accidental spine stretch at the gym - I did not check the weights and tried to pull down almost twice the proper setting, sorted that out for me.
 
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MikeyJ

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I'm not a fan of the GP / DNS bashing element of this forum but then everyone I guess is basing it on their own experiences. My experience of both is good (my DNS still wants me to eat porridge which I ignore but some T2's are ok with it so I'll let her have that one) The nutrition guidance element of this forum is great especially when you're new to diagnosis so I just make my choices drawing from a variety of sources. I work in the NHS in a non-clinical role and see stretched resources everywhere so I not keen on the slating of people delivering care in difficult circumstances. Those quick to criticise are i'm sure happy to take the free at the point of care Retinal Screening, Podiatry appointments and all other NHS services for other conditions.
 

Resurgam

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Believe me, the day that I come out of the clinic feeling that I received useful advice from my HCPs I will run back home to let the forum know about it.
I have deliberately not reported on much of my meeting with the nurse at my local practice - my so called 'annual review', as after she made it clear that it was just about cholesterol rather than my ongoing healthcare I rather lost interest.
 

Guzzler

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@Flora123

This is part of the reason why I am so overdue for a review. I have no faith in my DN, not because of my choice of diet per se but more because of her attitude toward the 'Chronic, progressive pathway' that she sees as being the only possible outcome for her patients with Type 2 Diabetes. We are told to improve our lifestyles but then given advice that is in my opinion contrary to logic. I find it impossible to smile and nod and agree with people who I am sure are giving me advice that will curtail my chances of surviving this condition as a comparatively healthy individual. I will not be able to stay quiet and will confront, it is part of my nature.
 
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Phoenix55

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'Reading your comments in this thread and some others I get really angry. The number of disparaging remarks about your doctors and nurses is astonishing. Talking about educating them?!?!? Who the hell do you think you are? If you are so sure of your ways, why are you going to your doctor, nurse, etc. Go and treat yourselves and don't waste the professionals time which could be spent on other patients.'

We go to our doctors/HCP expecting to be treated as reasonable, thinking human beings. When we are faced with a someone who clearly does not believe us when we tell them honestly that we have been following the approved low fat, 5 a day lifestyle for years; that we clearly are not Asian in extraction and do not have any trace of T2 in our close family (having researched the family on both sides back for several generations). When that person subjects us to an incompetent phlebotomist who leaves us able to trace the muscles of our lower arm through the bruising we have from her blood test on the bend of the arm and twice leaves us dripping blood over her room floor and dismisses it as 'it happens sometimes'. When the HCP do not listen to the problem that we have with taking a drug that will probably leave us with 'stomach issues'( just look at the NICE site and add up the percentages) and an hour drive each way to work with nowhere to pull over and take a 'rest room' break. Some of us have to take our health into our own hands. I have always been brought up to respect the medical profession, I have members of close family who have worked in highly regarded hospitals, but my recent personal experience of HCP in the community makes me angry. I went to my doctor expecting to be treated as reasonable, thinking human - instead I had to remind them that I was 60+ not 6 when verbally threatened with not following their treatment pattern. That I used the internet and evaluated what I read. That I was still learning, researching material in a different field but at a level that I had been assured was doctorate level, and I have followed courses that are above graduate level at a world class university. I no longer 'waste' my HCP time with visits even on an annual basis to monitor my health. I agreed to have my next HbA1c in October - I did not agree which October and that was over two years ago, and I accept responsibility for that decision. I am treating myself the best way that I know how by educating myself and by spending my hard earned pension on testing my bloods regularly to make sure that they stay within bounds that I am happy will not leave me with permanent damage to eyes or extremities. I do not presume to educate those with an entrenched view that their way is the only way and therefore must be the best way. I have contributed to the fora on this site because it accepted that there is a way for each of us that is unique to that individual, that we are thinking humans that make decisions for ourselves and accept responsibility for the consequences of those decisions. We contribute the best advice that we can from personal experience but will always advise people to consult their HCP if in any doubt. I in and tend to live drug free for as long as possible, while being aware that my condition may deteriorate progressively in the future, that I may need to resort to medication, but I will do my best to avoid it for as long as is sensible and will therefore not be a burden on an already over-stretched service ( just add up months of basic drug treatment that I have saved the NHS by losing weight, normalising my bg through finding Lo carb eating and monitoring my bg regularly for the last couple of years all at my own expense)
 

Flora123

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Not sure why you would want the conversation.

It's not our job to educate the NHS, and I doubt whether they would listen to a "mere" patient anyway.

I just let them talk, and then leave.

I hear you but I’m not that kind of person. If I can sow the seed in their mind it might help other patients who are less keen to read and learn than I am.
 
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Flora123

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Reading your comments in this thread and some others I get really angry. The number of disparaging remarks about your doctors and nurses is astonishing. Talking about educating them?!?!? Who the hell do you think you are? If you are so sure of your ways, why are you going to your doctor, nurse, etc. Go and treat yourselves and don't waste the professionals time which could be spent on other patients.
This forum has turned to a forum for low carbing. And in my experience if you dare to express different opinion, they jump on you and make you feel tiny. Well No. I'm a nurse and I completely support the nurses, dieticians and doctors who are helping me. They try their best and their advice helps me live as normally as possible. So I control the diabetes, not it me! They help me live with minimal restrictions and feel good. And they are succeeding. My sugars are normalising, I feel better and feel human again.
So go on, make your choices. Either you treat yourselves or let professionals do it.

Hmmm. I was merely asking. I feel my DN has absolutely no idea about carbs and effect on BG levels. I’m sure there are some amazing nurses out there but mine, although lovely and caring is a bit clueless about nutrition generally. I, and I’m sure others,do not mean to offend, but it is frustrating that I’m told to eat bread and pasta because it is good for me (and that’s how they’ve been trained) whenI know I can’t eat like that. I literally can’t go over 20g a day. Every HCP just wanted to put me on meds.
I’m not asking to go to my doc or DN, these are routine appts requested by them so please don’t accuse me/is of wasting their time.
We all support our medical staff and you are very lucky that ‘their way’ works for you, but if I followed the advice given, I’d be in medication and probably insulin. Doing it my way I feel better and I feel human , as you say.
There is no disrespect here but I do feel everyone wants to shout from the rooftops about how there are other ways of helping your condition and do your own research. I for one am hugely grateful to everyone here for answering questions, the amazing amount of info and the amazing support xx
 

bulkbiker

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Those quick to criticise are i'm sure happy to take the free at the point of care Retinal Screening, Podiatry appointments and all other NHS services for other conditions.
A tad judgemental.. remember those of us here who are taxpayers have contributed a fair chunk towards the training of HCP's and the services of the NHS over the years. Nothing in the NHS is "free" someone somewhere has paid for it.
 

bulkbiker

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Take your point @bulkbiker but lets remember the good bits as well as the not so perfect elements of NHS care
I have spent quite a bit of time with my aged mother and the NHS recently... I am afraid the experience was not particularly rewarding for her or me. We have now reduced her daily pills from 6 to 2. Her early onset dementia has miraculously cured itself ( strangely since we stopped the statins). When she was admitted to hospital after a fall she was found to have dangerously low blood pressure even though she had been on blood pressure lowering meds for years. They have now been stopped as well.
Whilst it may be underfunded it is unfortunately also the epitome of inefficiency and waste. How many times does a blood test need to be done when transferring between hospitals? Don't they believe each other?
 

MikeyJ

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Tablets (oral)
Sorry to hear your family's experience hasn't been good but there are 100 times more good experiences than bad across the service
 
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Resurgam

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Since stopping the Atorvastatin I have had to relearn all my songs, and I have not played my guitar at all, but thank goodness my daughter asked me to update my songbook and I have them written down - at least 300 and some of them, and I have a kind local folk club where I can sing them - I started at no 1 and have been working my way through the book week by week. it is really frightening to suddenly realize that senility has arrived in just a few weeks - and most annoying to find that you can't remember the combination of a padlock you have used for 40 years.
 

Rachox

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Reading your comments in this thread and some others I get really angry. The number of disparaging remarks about your doctors and nurses is astonishing. Talking about educating them?!?!? Who the hell do you think you are? If you are so sure of your ways, why are you going to your doctor, nurse, etc. Go and treat yourselves and don't waste the professionals time which could be spent on other patients.
This forum has turned to a forum for low carbing. And in my experience if you dare to express different opinion, they jump on you and make you feel tiny. Well No. I'm a nurse and I completely support the nurses, dieticians and doctors who are helping me. They try their best and their advice helps me live as normally as possible. So I control the diabetes, not it me! They help me live with minimal restrictions and feel good. And they are succeeding. My sugars are normalising, I feel better and feel human again.
So go on, make your choices. Either you treat yourselves or let professionals do it.

As a retired NHS nurse I feel I have to respond to your post. I have extreme respect for anyone working in the NHS in these difficult times but I was astonished when I was diagnosed with type 2 that the NHS guidelines appear to be so wrong! i.e. eatwell plate and no need to test at home. I have never been rude about or towards my GP who is my main point of contact for my Diabetes care. At my first review I was too unsure of my personal success yet to ‘admit’ to low carbing but did mention I was self testing to see what foods suited me, he just said that I didn’t need to test. I think it was at my third review when my HbA1c was at a non diabetic level for the second time, that I ‘confessed’ to low carbing. Not only was my GP in agreement that low carbing worked but he also looked interestedly at my graphs etc on my blood glucose recording apps. acknowledging that self testing has been a useful tool for me. At my reviews since I always ‘remind’ him how I’m controlling my Diabetes and at my last appt. I left him with a copy of Dr Unwin’s paper about the success in his practice of advising low carbing to his type 2s. I’m considering joining the PPG of my surgery to see if I can persue helping the staff and patients with this ‘different’ and in my view very successful approach. I can’t stand by and ignore my memories of nursing diabetic patients with unhealing ulcers, gangrenous feet, failing kidneys and eyesight, because of uncontrolled blood sugar levels.
So in answer to your question “Who the hell do you think you are?” I’m a patient yes, but a patient working in partnership with my GP, he arranges my blood tests and reviews the results with me. He prescribes my medication but we are both involved in discussing any alterations. Ultimately I’m responsible for my health but he is there to assist me so I will have my time in the surgery even though I don’t follow the NHS guidelines, I’m as entitled as anyone to that time.
 

Goonergal

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Reading your comments in this thread and some others I get really angry. The number of disparaging remarks about your doctors and nurses is astonishing. Talking about educating them?!?!? Who the hell do you think you are? If you are so sure of your ways, why are you going to your doctor, nurse, etc. Go and treat yourselves and don't waste the professionals time which could be spent on other patients.
This forum has turned to a forum for low carbing. And in my experience if you dare to express different opinion, they jump on you and make you feel tiny. Well No. I'm a nurse and I completely support the nurses, dieticians and doctors who are helping me. They try their best and their advice helps me live as normally as possible. So I control the diabetes, not it me! They help me live with minimal restrictions and feel good. And they are succeeding. My sugars are normalising, I feel better and feel human again.
So go on, make your choices. Either you treat yourselves or let professionals do it.

I would also like to respond to this. I haven’t noticed anyone on this site making blanket assertions about the health care profession. I have noticed many people posting personal experiences which have left them frustrated and / or angry with the poor advice or patronising attitude they have received or experienced.

Personally I have found a GP and practice nurse who have been supportive of my way of eating, however, that was after I found my own way and proved that a Keto way of eating could bring my blood sugars into the non diabetic range. If I had followed their initial advice to take medication and follow the eatwell plate, I dread to think where I may have ended up.

In my case I am now being asked what I have done and the GP and nurse are keen to understand, but I do worry for others who may not have the same access to information as me: at my DESMOND course, I was the only one for whom English was a first language and my then still high but greatly reduced HbA1c (57) one of the lowest in the room (and I was the most recently diagnosed).

Health care professionals have a tough job in an underfunded service but in a context where diabetes and obesity are blamed for costing the NHS millions, one might be entitled to think that learning more about it and promoting solutions that would save millions would be a top priority.