Carbs Carbs Carbs and the press

[phoenix]

I do think that it is important to try to write accurately this is what they say in the document

"Low-carbohydrate diets
The effects of more extreme limitations on carbohydrate content (10–20 E%) in patients with diabetes cannot be determined due to insufficient scientific evidence (⊕○○○).
Scientific evidence is not available to evaluate the long-term safety of moderate and extreme low-carbohydrate diets. This
includes cardiovascular morbidity and other complications of diabetes"

 

[dannyw]

From your link:
• In type 2 diabetes, low-fat and moderate low-carbohydrate diets (30–40% of the energy from carbohydrates) have similar, favorable effects on HbA1c (long-term blood glucose) and bodyweight. The absence of sufficient-quality studies in people with diabetes prevents evaluation of the long-term effects of more extreme diets involving low-carbohydrate and high-fat intake, eg, so-called “low-carb, high-fat” (LCHF) diets.

 

[phoenix]

Both statements come from the document.
Angels on pinheads?
To go back to the original propostition
"Sweden is the only country where the government health organisation advocates LCHF."
People now have all the original documents (well all the officially translated ones) to decide if Sweden has really done this.

 

[Natalie1974]

Interestingly whilst looking up info on juvenile epilepsy a while back I stumbled on the following...http://www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/664/download?token=DoAigdst...if research has already been carried out to the extent that the NHS are willing to recommend a ketogenic diet for epileptics...why oh why are they not recommending it for diabetics??

 

[dannyw]

Interestingly whilst looking up info on juvenile epilepsy a while back I stumbled on the following...http://www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/664/download?token=DoAigdst...if research has already been carried out to the extent that the NHS are willing to recommend a ketogenic diet for epileptics...why oh why are they not recommending it for diabetics??

Hopefully it's just a matter of time. Currently there are just not enough valid, long term studies. That and the fact that there's money in those carbs Me ? Cynical ?

 

[SunnyExpat]

Interestingly whilst looking up info on juvenile epilepsy a while back I stumbled on the following...http://www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/664/download?token=DoAigdst...if research has already been carried out to the extent that the NHS are willing to recommend a ketogenic diet for epileptics...why oh why are they not recommending it for diabetics??

Most type 2's are juveniles, and while I can't access the link, didn't it have a large fall out from those trying to follow it?

 

[Natalie1974]

Hopefully it's just a matter of time. Currently there are just not enough valid, long term studies. That and the fact that there's money in those carbs Me ? Cynical ?

Cynical or not...I'd be inclined to agree

 

[donnellysdogs]

Most type 2's are juveniles, and while I can't access the link, didn't it have a large fall out from those trying to follow it?

Most type 1's are juveniles...not type 2's (currently)....

 

[Natalie1974]

Most type 2's are juveniles, and while I can't access the link, didn't it have a large fall out from those trying to follow it?

Don't know anything about any fall out...I haven't dug that deeply into it...I was just surprised to read that the NHS were recommending a ketogenic diet. It does however only recommend for children up to the age of 16 due to high fat intake. However...I'm guessing that with the breaking news that fat isn't bad after all that these guidelines will be reviewed at some point...bring it on I say

 

[Celeriac]

GOSH uses ketogenic diets for treatment of childhood epilepsy
www.gosh.nhs.uk/medical-information/procedures-and-treatments/ketogenic-diet

The information I had about Sweden's health board advocating LCHF came from Dr Andreas Eenfeldt's website www.dietdoctor.com so if it's incorrect that's his mistake.

There is a LCHF culture in Sweden however and I remember Adam Lambert being photographed because he was a regular customer in the LCHF Klubben store at Sturegallerien in Stockholm, while he was recording his album with Max Martin and Shellback.

http://lchfklubben.se/lchfbloggen/2014/02/28/adam-lambert/

Additionally, there's a piece on a gastroenterologist in New Zealand using low carb to treat Crohn's Disease in livinlavidalowcarb

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/...ase-new-zealand-gastroenterologist-finds/2123

 

[SunnyExpat]

Don't know anything about any fall out...I haven't dug that deeply into it...I was just surprised to read that the NHS were recommending a ketogenic diet. It does however only recommend for children up to the age of 16 due to high fat intake. However...I'm guessing that with the breaking news that fat isn't bad after all that these guidelines will be reviewed at some point...bring it on I say

Can't comment on the 'breaking news', just the fact the NHS accept that many 'fall off'the diet, even as juveniles, and only suggest it for juvenile epilepsy.
I also can't comment on if they still do, with regard to more modern treatments.

 

[Celeriac]

Epilepsy Foundation recommends ketogenic diets www.epilepsy.com/learn/treating-seizures-and-epilepsy/dietary-therapies/ketogenic-diet

You'll also find research on this mentioned on Medscape, Webmd, Dr Mercola's website and www.epilepsyresearch.org.uk the national charity.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Epilepsy Foundation recommends ketogenic diets www.epilepsy.com/learn/treating-seizures-and-epilepsy/dietary-therapies/ketogenic-diet

You'll also find research on this mentioned on Medscape, Webmd, Dr Mercola's website and www.epilepsyresearch.org.uk the national charity.

From your link

Other side effects that might occur if the person stays on the diet for a long time are:
Kidney stones
High cholesterol levels in the blood
Dehydration
Constipation
Slowed growth or weight gain
Bone fractures

 

[SunnyExpat]

Most type 1's are juveniles...not type 2's (currently)....

My typo, I meant to put 'Most Type 2's aren't juveniles', as you correctly say.

 

[Celeriac]

From your link

Other side effects that might occur if the person stays on the diet for a long time are:
Kidney stones
High cholesterol levels in the blood
Dehydration
Constipation
Slowed growth or weight gain
Bone fractures

Protein is also restricted on the diet and it even mentions not using toothpaste with sugar in and carb free meds so it does seem that the diet used is even more strict than that of the average low carber.

I don't see why dehydration and constipation are mentioned as problems, because these kids have a medical team and dietician and adding more water and fibre shouldn't be a problem for them.

As for the kidney stones while this happened in children on a ketogenic low protein diet, (there is at least one study) in adults with diabetes a ketogenic diet can reverse kidney disease.
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110420184429.htm

 

[Brunneria]

All restricted ways of eating have a high fall out rate.

It strikes me that ketogenic diets are perfectly normal in this regard. I would love to know the stats on how different groups stick to this way of eating. Athletes, versus weight loss dieters, versus type 1s, versus type 2s, versus epileptics, versus people who just want to eat that way.

My common sense suspicion is that the people who have the best compliance are those who see the most visible benefits. I see that as yet another argument to provide type 2s with blood glucose meters.

I am unaware of any studies on this.

 

[Gezzabelle]

I was asked by by nurse how I had lowered my HbA1c...told her I had changed my diet dramatically and now ate low carb and higher fat. I was told I needed many more carbs and to return to eating white bread, potatoes, rice and pasta and to disregard any high readings. I was also told fat is to be cut right back or my cholesterol would fly up and I would have a heart attack or stroke. I did ask if she had seen the recent reports that debunked the myth that all fat is bad but it fell on deaf ears. Also told to stop testing completely. Got the feeling they hate to see any success that they haven't had a hand in or that bucks the trend of the out dated information they have. Despite my success she was determined to make me revert to eating all the bad food that had caused the problem in the first place. How can we hope for any changes when they are so out of touch with everything and refuse to budge or listen?

 

[Paul59]

I totally agree. I know so many people who work on the principle that all fat is bad, and all carbohydrates good. I've a friend who eats rice cakes like they're going out of fashion, and has meringue, and fruit and cream every day for dessert. I've lost a stone since cutting down on carbs

Rice cakes=cardboard if uou ask me. Yukky things.

 

[Paul59]

I think it will change once high quality* research about LCHF is published, accepted and promoted. I think there is some promising research currently underway?

*Usually the writers of guidelines will only accept large scale randomised controlled trials, not small studies or case reports, and the studies should be published in "high impact" journals, rather than lesser-known, less reliable publications.

Normally I only accept this level of evidence too. But in this case I accept the anecdotal evidence of the hundreds of people I've seen post in this forum, plus my own anecdotal experience of what my BG meter and my body are telling me. In short, we know it works, but to get the approach into formal guidelines, it has to be proven in a certain way. This system prevents ineffective and potentially harmful treatments being approved. The downside is that when there is a potentially helpful treatment, it takes a long time to get it approved.

So I give it 5-10 years before we will be able to tell our GPs and nurses to check their guidelines. By then, hundreds of thousands of people will have suffered poorer health than necessary, and will have cost our countries millions.

It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

Trudi Deakins new book should be enough proof. She spent alot of time looking into it.
The from what I have tead on the research on the fat thing is that the testing was done mainly on RABBITS , rabbits dont eat meat etc so mostly based on false evidance.

 

[Paul59]

I just let what they say fall on deaf ears. They get right up my nose with their advice. If I feel better because I changed my diet to one that controls my BL & at the sametime improve my own health in many ways, then anything they say go in one & out the other.
There is no way I want to go onto injecting which is what happens to many following their advice.