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chinese medicine ?

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments' started by clivedon, Apr 28, 2008.

  1. saz1

    saz1 · Well-Known Member

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    oh my gosh, what a debate! Westrn medicine is supposedly the epitome of illness and sickness/ health management and it certainly is wonderful! But it doesn't mean that all others are rubbish or ineffective. Using alternative medicine, supplements, therapies, massages etc has many effects like does western medication. Unless you endanger yourself or others, using any alternastive therapies and finding relief is wonderful. I suffer occasionally with migraine type headaches and at work we have a lady who is a bodybalancing therapist and reiki healer. Twice she has rescued me from an impending explosive headache. First by reiki, and it cannot be said that the effect was in my mind because I had no idea what she was doing. All she did was take me to one side and stand behind me and this warmth just flowed in my neck and upper back and melted the auras away. Second time I was scrubbed for a case and unable to leave to take ibuprofen when the auras came. She then did tapping techniques and again all auras disappeared and the headache didn't appear. I am still sceptic with many things but will not diss them. If something works for one person, it is worth carrying on for in my mind (not risking their health etc.). It is people's prerogative to choose what to do or what treatments to use regardless of its usefulness or side effects, isn't it? Fair enough, many people may be mis informed or ignorant of diabetic complications but then who can we blame for that? Healthcare professionals? Patients themselves? Internet? After all nowadays there is so much info on the net and in journals and books that it can be overwhelming. It certainly has been for me with a recent diagnosis, and I am a nurse myself and very aware of current practices and innovations You may not approve or believe in alternative therapies but like said, many modern medications have been discovered via these ancient treatments and traditions. My rant over...
     
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  2. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    saz 1, if you're a health care professional, you must know that modern medicines are far more effective than the leechcraft and shamanry that's been passed down through the ages.

    Are you trying to tell us that antibiotics are less helpful than acupuncture? That insulin can be replaced by some daft person waving their hands around your back whilst humming a weird tune? That asthmatics taking salbutamol would be better off lying down with a crystal on their foreheads when they can't breathe?

    Here's a good site if you need some help in understanding what I'm trying to say. I can provide many more links which debunk Reiki, acupuncture, reflexology and the like if you wish.

    In the meantime, please don't promote this kind of nonsense to people who are ill and potentially vulnerable to quackery.
     
  3. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    Whoa here Thirsty,don't bundle every alternate therapy and non western medicine together!!Many of these practices have been going on for thousands of years.
    I personally have seen very efficient and efficacious use of reflexology,aroma therapy and acupuncture.Where was this? Not in some incense laden back room but in our local Health centre practised by the Practice nurses there.While ,as a very cynical and no nonsense Scot ,I do not believe in many of the 'smoke and mirror' therapies that you see popping up on the internet daily I do not believe that all non western treatments are just not as good as western medicine,they work in a different way that's all.
    If I handed you some willow bark and told you it would cure your pain then you may look askance at me,hand you a bottle of Aspirin and you would not question,one is derived from the other.The same can be said for Quinine and many other drugs routinely used in the west.Today researchers are testing venoms from certain creatures for future drug use.We do not know everything,if we did then perhaps we would not be on this forum debating different treatments.
     
  4. DiabeticSkater

    DiabeticSkater · Well-Known Member

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    My local GP surgery offers acupuncture and herbelism. so what does that mean?

    There are numerous treatment for diabetic complications which work far better than any nasty chemicals with plenty of side effects. but because the Dr's or kooks as i like to call em cant make a direct "scientific" link those things are not available.
     
  5. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    It means that someone there is open-minded enough and also trained in the use of these alternate therapies. The use of these is strictly governed in Health centres with only a limited tried and tested few methods being used.Herbalism has a long history going back to the monks of old and the wiccans who were the then herbalists later to be branded as witches!!They were also the midwives of their time using herbal infusions to calm and help with childbirth.Many of these herbs became today's medicines but it is thanks to these long ago practitioners that we have these drugs and their knowledge of how they were used.
     
  6. HLW

    HLW Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I read a very interesting article recently about placebos. The researchers were comparing various pain relief and found that even the medicine that they knew exactly how it worked (what molcules were involved, what chemical rections etc) was less effective when the people taking were told it was not real and was just a sugar pill. There were lots of other details too, eg brightly coloured tablets are more effective, multiple tablets are more effective. Basically the placebo effect is very real, for pain/anxiety etc sometimes nothing else helps.

    I really can't remember where I read it, I think New Scientist or the 'Bad Science' column in the Guardian. I've tried finding it or the study it was talking about to link to in this post, but no luck, but if someone does find it it's very interesting reading.

    (sorry about any miss-spelling, I've not got a dictonary with me and I don't think I can get the forum to spellcheck before I post)
     
  7. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    sugarless sue, as much as I like you, (and most people who post here), I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about the alternative/complementary medicine stuff.

    Do you know anyone who has been cured of a serious disease like diabetes or cancer by one of these methods? I don't. I am, however, aware of many cases where people have rejected modern treatments in favour of quackery and then died as a result.

    If I seem to be a little grumpy about this issue, it's because I genuinely care about my fellow beings and detest seeing them being scammed.
     
  8. DiabeticSkater

    DiabeticSkater · Well-Known Member

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    but then plenty of people have died because of modern western medicine.
    If something makes someone feel better weather proven scientifically or not its got to be a good thing. hasnt it?
    I started dose adjusting my insulin at the age of 14 but had to keep this secret from the specialist because it wasnt widely accepted. now its all the rage. makes the mind bogle
     
  9. wiflib

    wiflib Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    The key word here is complimentary.

    I have previously told a story here about being cured of a particularly awful migraine with acupuncture backed up with simple analgesia. I normally end up in A&E extremely unwell.

    Like all drugs and complimentary therapies, sometimes it works.

    wiflib
     
  10. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    Thirsty I was not talking about people using these things exclusively but using them along side western medicine to help alleviate symptoms.I would be the first to advice people not to forgo their medications and treatments but sometimes some form of relief can be afforded from some of these alternative therapies.I have seen it work otherwise I would not advocate for it.I also do not like people being scammed but the treatments I am talking about are actually available on the NHS.
     
  11. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    Oh well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

    I would like to say that simply because a therapy is available on the NHS does not mean that it's any more effective than a placebo. For example, I've heard an NHS employee recommend reiki and acupuncture because "they're energy things", whatever that means; she certainly didn't know.

    If anyone's interested in checking out the reality behind dubious health-care, (and other pseuodoscientific), claims, a good place to start is James Randi's site at http://www.randi.org/site/ The forum has a wealth of information available and the members are generally well qualified in their own fields.
     
  12. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    I'll give you a for instance ,Thirsty.I used to work with a nurse who was a reflexologist,I don't even pretend to know how that works but....I work with people with Dementia so basically they do not really understand what is going on around them.Many of them suffer from constipation because they do not eat a lot nor drink a lot.My colleague would do reflexology on them,I watched her do this once,she massaged a certain part of their foot.To say the results where spectacular is an understatement ,in fact the reflexology was just too effective!!!She had to stop doing this as the results were just to.....messy!!I have no idea how this worked but work it did.
    My husband also had acupuncture to help with post-stroke neurological pain,it did not cure it but,,,for a couple of days a week he did not need his pain killers,he was also helped with aromatherapy to alleviate some of his discomfort.As to the others I have no personal experience so cannot comment on any of them.
     
  13. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I see, demented patients become incontinent when someone rubs their feet. That's jolly helpful, I must say.

    Seriously, study after study has shown that much CAM doesn't work and can be dangerous. It's not for me to say whether anyone should try this stuff but, I'd advise everyone to look into this before parting with their cash.

    My final words on the matter.
     
  14. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    All joking aside it did give them a lot of relief!! Don't part with your cash,look into whether you can get some of these treatments on the NHS from course accredited practitioners.Now,Thirsty,I love a good debate but I must go to bed,been working all night!I'll catch up with this debate later.
     
  15. saz1

    saz1 · Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I just love thos debate! Did I suggest dropping medications? NO. Did I say that alternative therapies are THE ONLY way to go? NO. But if you want to interpret my message that way, please feel free... After all we all believe (or don't) in different things and I at least have a wider scope and am willing to give new experiences a chance. If they are useful and I feel they contribute to my well being, that can only be good.

    The discussion of placebos, pill colours and subjective statements of improved health after aromatherapy etc come largely down to the power of mind. And if our minds can be that powerful, why squash it. Anything to help us in complimenting treatments we take (Fantastic western medicine) and alleviating symptoms/complications surely is not all evil?

    But then, this is my belief and I will stand by it. :twisted:
     
  16. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    Quite right Saz! there are more things in this world that we don't understand than do understand.The power of the mind for one thing.Some of these things have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years and we are only now finding so called scientific explanations for them working.Our ancestors knew a lot of things that we ,in modern times, have forgotten.
     
  17. saz1

    saz1 · Well-Known Member

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    In deed Sue! After all western medicine has used a lot of ingredients and ideas from many other ideologies over it's development. Of course it is wonderful, I see so many wonderful and miraculous things every day but I also see some of the other stuff and I can honestly say that western medicine isn't all knowing and perfect. So I think having an open mind is wonderful and though it doesn't make world all rosy all the time, at least I see some shades of pink! And I am very happy with that! I welcome all guns available to safely use to combat tgis illness! :evil:
     
  18. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    Many modern drugs date back to the herbalists and wiccans of old who had an extensive knowledge of herbs and remedies.Those remedies were all lost when the authorities decided that wiccans were 'evil' people and some were lost forever.Many of the old remedies were 'rediscovered' by scientists and now are more familiar as little coloured pills that we take without a second thought.
     
  19. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    My final, final words on the matter. ;)

    The problem with placebos is that they're only effective around 30% of the time, and then only for complaints which tend to be psychosomatic or heal in time anyway. Think about it; that means 70% of patients who opt for non-evidence based medicines receive no benefit that being prescribed sugar pills wouldn't provide. That's a waste of money whether the NHS or the patient pays, (wonder why you can't get test strips?)

    I'd also say that much of CAM is by no means ancient wisdom. Homoeopathy, Reiki, Reflexology, Crystal Therapy, Chiropractic, Osteopathy and many more are relatively recent ideas which show no effect higher than placebo when rigorously tested. If any of it's used in conjunction with modern medicine, how can you possibly be sure what's working?

    Herbalism? Well, sue's certainly correct in saying that many plants contain substances which can be helpful but, they're by no means all safe to take and you can only guess at the active content they contain.

    Sadly, it really is the case that people reject conventional medicine in favour of hogwash and come to grief as a result.
     
  20. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    You sure it's you're final word? I'm not saying reject conventional medicine.I was saying that some of these things can be used in conjunction with conventional medications to aid relief.Say we both have a headache.You take paracetamol,I use visualisation and meditation.We both get rid of our headaches.Result.But maybe my headache doesn't go away so I take paracetamol as well and it goes.OK so maybe I should have taken the Paracetamol in the first place but I don't like taking chemical medication,my choice.If I get rid of the headache by other means it keeps me happy but if I need more formal medication I take it.
     
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