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chinese medicine ?

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments' started by clivedon, Apr 28, 2008.

  1. Doczoc

    Doczoc · Well-Known Member

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    Thirsty, I am naturally a cynical person but I think it's wrong to assert that all alternative/complimentary therapies are out to scam people. I don't think you can lump them together either. I have a friend who is a homeopath, she trained for four years to become qualified, there is a professional body for homeopaths of which she is a member. Although there's nothing to stop anyone setting themselves up as a homeopath the community run at a high level of ethics and anyone not egistered wouldn't last very long. She came to homeopathy having suffered from MS and multiple strokes, she was medically retired from teaching at 32, wheelchair bound and told she would never walk again and would lose her sight. The doctors told her that basically she was waiting to die and could do no more for her. In desperation she turned to homeopathy and the change was nothing short of miraculous, her blindness was halted, she was able to walk, (she cycles everywhere now), got married had two kids, retrained and now is a highly respected homeopath who trains other homeopaths. Not bad for someone who was waiting to die! That was 15 years ago and she is still in total remission and is the picture of health, very active, although her eyesight is still poor.

    Western medicine had no effect on her so dd the exploitative homeopath she saw get lucky? My friend is one of the world's truly genuine people, she is so caring and socially aware, there is no way she could ever be accused of being out to scam people. As far has she's concerned homeopathy saved her life and she wants to give other people the alternative that she benefitted from! So in the case of your question, her very serious illness was 'cured'!

    Would she have gone into remisssion without homeopathy, who knows? Would those people who you refer to who refused western treatment and died and lived otherwise, who knows? Do I believe in homeopathy, not really, my logic says it simply can't work, but I did see one once out of curiosity, and the reaction I had to this 'sugar pill' was both immendiate and quite bizare, certainly nothing like I've had from sugar before LOL I think people need to choose what is right for them, even if it is placebo effect, if the results are good who cares. Do you really think health is about popping the right chemical, IMO it is far more to do with state of mind than western medical advice would have us believe. I know this from personal experience.
     
  2. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    Doczoc, my aunt survived MS for around 40 years, despite never having used CAM. Sometimes she was very ill, sometimes in remission. Eventually, the condition killed her, which wasn't something any of us enjoyed seeing.

    My father is currently dying from cancer and is too ill to undergo chemotherapy or surgery; we're not enjoying that, either.

    Perhaps you're able to provide proven alternative methods which will cure carcinomatosis or MS?

    Yes?
     
  3. Doczoc

    Doczoc · Well-Known Member

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    Edit: original reply deleted as it was a very clumsy response. Sorry!

    Thirsty, you have my deepest sympathies. I only wished to make the point that sometimes it is 'beneficial' to people and that not all therapists are out to scam.
     
  4. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    Doczoc, no offense taken and sympathies appreciated. It's just that I've spent many years reading up on CAM and have reached a very different conclusion to you about its effectiveness.

    Make your own minds up, folks but do be careful.
     
  5. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    Take a look at this link : - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7828593.stm
    This may help a bit to separate the real practitioners from the cowboys. I think the problem is that some of these alternative practitioners make outrageous claims.
     
  6. saz1

    saz1 · Well-Known Member

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    absolutely! I saw this this morning and it is potentially a fab idea. Like I have said I am all for complimentary therapies but it is a dangerous mine field out there and many people have been ripped off for nothing. I think desperation and ignorance is rife and the hocus pocus practitioners are there with open arms taking money for "advice" and "treatment". It is a fine line between getting the right treatment from reputable practitioners and achieving nothing, or like pointed out by Thirsty, being harmed. I say we must do our research before jumping on the bandwagon... But I have had amazing results from various things and have been lucky not to have paid a penny so I am a believer indeed. In some of the treatments... I think I leave urine therapy out of my category... :mrgreen:
     
  7. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    Bolding mine.

    Have I said enough?
     
  8. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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    I think we've all had our say on this one and will all have to agree to disagree! However I will leave this open as it has been an interesting debate.
     
  9. jane.owen37

    jane.owen37 · Member

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    I feel that I have to put my experience of acupuncture in this forum. My GP arranged for me to have 10 sessions of acupunture on the NHS at the surgery and to be honest it was one of the best things that happened to me. At the time I was in chronic pain from arthritis and I was willing to try anything! Most of the pain was in my back and my knees and I personally have benefitted from having accupuncture, so much so that I have continued with the sessions at a monthly cost of £30 for one session. I would trust my acupuncturist with my children's lives and she is certainly no charlaton! I am absolutely amazed by what she can tell me about my body just by taking my pulse at different points on my wrists eg she could tell when I was constipated & she could also tell me how I hadn't been sleeping very well without me telling her I was tired! I look forward to that one day every four weeks because the night after having a session of acupuncture is the one night that I sleep well and if nothing else it is worth it for that! What does it matter whether it the placaebo effect or the needles that help my pain - I feel better so who cares?!?

    I haven't stopped taking medication prescribed by my GP but I have been able to cut back on pain killers which can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned! I realise that not everybody feels the same as me but "don't knock it 'til you've tried it"! There is a professional association of acupuncturists so that anyone practising should be a member. Acupuncture has been used for thousands of years and the "tapping" techniques that are now being used actually use the different acupressure points on the body so there must be something in it!
     
  10. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid I have to disagree.

    Acupuncture is difficult to test as it is an invasive procedure. Similarly, pain is a subjective experience and there is no reliable way to measure it.

    What has been shown is that needles inserted well away from the traditionally accepted "meridians", (which have never been shown to exist), produce roughly the same effect as those inserted at the supposedly correct points. i.e. not much more than would be expected from a placebo.

    Sham acupuncture needles, which don't actually penetrate the skin show a similar, if slightly reduced, effect.

    Try acupuncture if you're willing to pay for it but don't stake your life on it.

    Odd first post on a diabetes forum. Could somebody have a hidden agenda?
     
  11. jane.owen37

    jane.owen37 · Member

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    Geez Thirsty you really know how to make someone feel welcome! I just wanted to tell people my positive association with acupuncture no hidden agenda! DON'T THINK I'LL BOTHER AGAIN IF THAT'S HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT ME! Thanks alot!
     
  12. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    Just telling it how it is jane. I can back up everything I've said with pages and pages of reputable research, but I doubt anyone would want to plow through it all.

    If I've offended you, then I apologise.
     
  13. Dennis

    Dennis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thirsty,
    No your'e not - you are telling it the way you see it. You are just as entitled to do that as anyone else is entitled to express a view that differs from yours. But that does not give you the right to attack anyone who doesn't agree with your views.

     
  14. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    *Sigh*

    Dennis,

    I'm discussing the issue at hand, am I not? I do have very strong views about complementary and alternative therapies and I've already said why: it's because most of them show no effect more than would be expected from placebos when rigorously tested. It really is that simple.

    Now, if you'd prefer me not to argue in favour of scepticism, which I believe should help people to make an informed decision about this issue, then I shall not post in this section of the forum anymore.

    Your call.
     
  15. Dennis

    Dennis Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thirsty,

    You are very welcome to express your opinion in this or any other thread, provided that you do so in a way that does not intimidate and upset other members. Your response to Jane clearly intimidated and upset her as can be seen from her response. To quote from the forum policy and rules:

    "Do not be rude or offensive
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please try and go by the rule of only speaking to people here as you would on a face to face basis. Do not try and shock, upset or offend. Debate and discussion are fine, as are controversial opinions, but each individual should be treated with respect and tolerance. Remember, everyone is different in age, experience and the nature of their diabetes. Finding common ground and sharing help is the purpose of this forum."
     
  16. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, Dennis.

    I didn't set out to intimidate or upset Jane, that was absolutely not my intention and I've already apologised. I would hope that the majority of my posts show that I genuinely care about my fellow beings: arguing against unproven therapies, which cost people a lot of money, is part of that.

    Again, my apologies to anyone I may have upset by my comments.

    You may want to look at this article, which attempts to discuss acupuncture and the placebo effect rationally. Makes sense to me.
     
  17. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    Just to keep banging the drum, this discussion caused me to buy Trick or Treatment by Dr. Simon Singh and Professor Edzard Ernst. ISBN 9780593061299

    I've just finished the section on Acupuncture, and it really is quite damning. If anyone's interested, drop me a pm and I'll happily forward my copy. It's an interesting and provocative read.
     
  18. claridge

    claridge · Well-Known Member

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    I had very bad exzema when l was younger and chinese medicine helped me so so much. So please dont say it is a croc of **** if you have not tried it.
     
  19. Thirsty

    Thirsty · Well-Known Member

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    So did I. Occasionally, I still do and it tends to heal in time without any treatment.

    *SHRUG*
     
  20. sugarless sue

    sugarless sue · Master

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