Coming off medication, can it be done?

[carina62]

All very encouraging, thanks. I too have fatty liver and want to get rid of it. Am doing low carbing but I need to up my excercise and for the weight to come off - hoping 2017 is going to be the year I nail it and a big bonus would be to come off some or all of my meds.

 

[Winnie53]

@carina62 sounds like you're off to a great start!

Yes @douglas99 , you can have type 2 diabetes if you're "fat", but you can also have it if you're "skinny". That's the point of my posts.

Why? Because skinny and obese people develop type 2 diabetes due to Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease (NAFLD), not their BMI.

At age 18, I weighed 95 pounds and ate significantly more calories and carbs than I do today at 143 pounds on the low carbohydrate ketogenic diet (LCKD). When I started the LCKD 2 years ago, I was both obese and living with chronic metabolic disease. Within months, all my health markers dramatically improved, and I became Metabolically Healthy Obese.

Granted, eating a limited amount of sugar and refined carbohydates as part of my healthy diet contributed to my weight gain from 95 pounds to 180 pounds over three decades, but I did not "overeat". But maybe you overate. If you did, I believe you.

Before I leave this topic I want to share one more experience that I believe is relevant to this discussion...

In 2011, I had inflammatory bowel disease (which was in remission), I weighed 160 pounds, I had subclinical hyperthyroid (which was in and out of remission), and I was about six years post my type 2 diabetes diagnosis and it was slowly worsing. A1c was now at 8.4%, I believe up from 7.2% in 2009.

Not sure why, but for some reason I decided I wanted to get my type 2 diabetes under control so I went to a healthcare practitioner who primarily used lifestyle changes, not medications, to treat my diabetes. She took my medical history and ordered a lot of lab work: Comprehensive Metabolic Panel, Lipid Panel, A1c, Thyroid Panel, Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy, C-Reactive Protein, Cardiac, Vitamin B12, Insulin, Ferritin, Serum, Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab, Antithyroglobulin Ab, Tryiiodothyronine, Free, Serum Ab and based on those results a Gluten Sensitivity Stool Test.

The result of that last test led to a diagnosis of Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity (NCGS). I was...not happy...to put it mildly.

I had to give up gluten which meant for me at the time that I had to give up bread, crackers, and sugary muffins, scones, and cookies, and I didn't have anything to put my dollop of jam on each morning.

I had no idea how addictive sugar is. I was shaking. The sugar cravings were intense. Looking back now, some of my symptoms were likely due to "candida die off". After a week or more of that, I got in touch with the facilitator of the local gluten-free group. She hooked me up with a gluten-free baker. Sugar crisis resolved, but I'd fired my healthcare practitioner, and my diabetes would continue to worsen over the next four years.

I have to say, removing sugar, refined foods, and unhealthy oils from my diet two years ago was the hardest thing I've ever done, but the freedom from the feelings of seemingly unrelenting hunger - (beginning to think about what I was going to eat next within an hour and a half of eating) - is...wonderful. I [heart] LCKD. Healthy fats and vegetables are our friend.

 

[douglas99]

@carina62 sounds like you're off to a great start!

Yes @douglas99 , you can have type 2 diabetes if you're "fat", but you can also have it if you're "skinny". That's the point of my posts.

Why? Because skinny and obese people develop type 2 diabetes due to Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease (NAFLD), not their BMI.

At age 18, I weighed 95 pounds and ate significantly more calories and carbs than I do today at 143 pounds on the low carbohydrate ketogenic diet (LCKD). When I started the LCKD 2 years ago, I was both obese and living with chronic metabolic disease. Within months, all my health markers dramatically improved, and I became Metabolically Healthy Obese.

Granted, eating a limited amount of sugar and refined carbohydates as part of my healthy diet contributed to my weight gain from 95 pounds to 180 pounds over three decades, but I did not "overeat". But maybe you overate. If you did, I believe you.

Before I leave this topic I want to share one more experience that I believe is relevant to this discussion...

In 2011, I had inflammatory bowel disease (which was in remission), I weighed 160 pounds, I had subclinical hyperthyroid (which was in and out of remission), and I was about six years post my type 2 diabetes diagnosis and it was slowly worsing. A1c was now at 8.4%, I believe up from 7.2% in 2009.

Not sure why, but for some reason I decided I wanted to get my type 2 diabetes under control so I went to a healthcare practitioner who primarily used lifestyle changes, not medications, to treat my diabetes. She took my medical history and ordered a lot of lab work: Comprehensive Metabolic Panel, Lipid Panel, A1c, Thyroid Panel, Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy, C-Reactive Protein, Cardiac, Vitamin B12, Insulin, Ferritin, Serum, Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab, Antithyroglobulin Ab, Tryiiodothyronine, Free, Serum Ab and based on those results a Gluten Sensitivity Stool Test.

The result of that last test led to a diagnosis of Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity (NCGS). I was...not happy...to put it mildly.

I had to give up gluten which meant for me at the time that I had to give up bread, crackers, and sugary muffins, scones, and cookies, and I didn't have anything to put my dollop of jam on each morning.

I had no idea how addictive sugar is. I was shaking. The sugar cravings were intense. Looking back now, some of my symptoms were likely due to "candida die off". After a week or more of that, I got in touch with the facilitator of the local gluten-free group. She hooked me up with a gluten-free baker. Sugar crisis resolved, but I'd fired my healthcare practitioner, and my diabetes would continue to worsen over the next four years.

I have to say, removing sugar, refined foods, and unhealthy oils from my diet two years ago was the hardest thing I've ever done, but the freedom from the feelings of seemingly unrelenting hunger - (beginning to think about what I was going to eat next within an hour and a half of eating) - is...wonderful. I [heart] LCKD. Healthy fats and vegetables are our friend.

True, a very small minority can be skinny with T2.
Me, I follow the trend, and sadly, was morbidly obese.
The good news is, now I'm not obese, I'm no longer T2, so , being 'mainstream', I'm happy to say fat wasn't good, skinny is better, for me.
You can always find an exception, is you look hard enough.
But, is it relevant to the majority?

 

[4ratbags]

Good luck to you in your quest to come off medication it can be done. On diagnosis my blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol were all high and I ended up on medication for them all. I was off all med within a year which is great. I thought weight loss is what helped me to do this but I have since put a lot of weight back on but my BP, BS and cholesterol have been fine.

 

[Winnie53]

True, a very small minority can be skinny with T2.
Me, I follow the trend, and sadly, was morbidly obese.
The good news is, now I'm not obese, I'm no longer T2, so , being 'mainstream', I'm happy to say fat wasn't good, skinny is better, for me.
You can always find an exception, is you look hard enough.
But, is it relevant to the majority?

@douglas99 your weight loss and the restoration of your health is a huge accomplishment. The most weight I've ever lost is 26 pounds. I could lose more but it requires more discipline and effort than I'm willing to exert for now. That will change when I get some other health issues addressed. I admire you and am striving to restore my health too. Not there yet, but working hard at it.

Will try to answer your question with examples.

I facilitate a type 2 diabetes group. An ongoing problem is how people, both within and outside the diabetes community, often stereotype "fat" and "skinny" people, also those with pre-diabetes, that they're somehow better off or worse off without knowing any of their medical history.

Just as bad is how discouraging it is when type 2's make pre-diabetics feel bad for making an earnest effort to restore their health because "they're not as bad off as those with type 2 diabetes" eventhough the lifestyle changes required are often similar or the same. They are every bit as deserving of ongoing support.

Additionally, flawed perceptions get in the way of identifying those who unknowingly have diabetes because they're "skinny" and the doctor ignores an abnormal blood glucose, doesn't even mention it to the patient, and doesn't investigate further which happened to one of our members who went on to develop what I believe to be LADA.

The newest member of our support group was diagnosed by her doctor with something like "obese onset type 2 diabetes". After hearing her medical history, something I do privately with all our new members, I have no idea how the doctor came to that conclusion, because she had a history of one significantly elevated blood glucose level years prior to becoming obese that was never followed up on. That diagnosis just made her feel worse, when the reverse was more likely true, that the metabolic syndrome lead to the weight gain.

Researchers like Robert Lustig who challenge the perception that "fat" people are always unhealthy and "skinny" people are always healthy are my heros.

 

[CherryAA]

Quotable from Robert Lustig, M.D., pediatric endocrinologist, author, and researcher, during the Q&A session in the above posted video (which no one appears to have watched ), minute 1:04:29 - 1:05:43...

"The question is, 'Well, could you just substitute glucose for fructose?' Well that's what we did in that study I showed you, the abstract, for.

Basically, glucose raises insulin and insulin drives energy into fat, so it definitely increases your subcutaneous fat. And that's one of the reasons we've gotten fatter, but what I hope we've shown you is metabolic disease is not obesity. They are two different things.

China's not fat. India's not fat. But they have chronic metabolic disease now for the same reason we have chronic metabolic disease.

In addition, we have fat, healthly people. They're called Metabolically Healthy Obese (MHO). So being fat and being sick are not the same thing.

Glucose definitely causes insulin release which definitely drives energy into fat. I don't argue that. We definitely need to reduce our refined carbohydrate consumption also, but that's what processed food is too.

Processed food is fiberless food. When we take the fiber out, we get refined carbohydrates.

So let's eat real food and we don't have to worry about the carbohydrate."

Oh I've watched it- and all the other stuff he and others have posted. (Lustig, Phinney, Noakes, Fung, Volek, Tarbs, Harcombe. Eenfeldt)

I've also followed most of the advice to the letter in terms of the reduction in carbs, limited protein, increase in saturated fats and reduction in polyunsaturated fats - emphasising omega 3 over omega 6. ( though I've yet to manage a 1:1 ratio). minimal snacking, I've not yet tried other than intermittent fasting.

Currently on my libre
99% of all readings are under 7.8% -for the last week (and 86% over the last 2 months) - ( normal non diabetic equals 99%)
and 83% under 6.7% ( which should be 91% to be utterly normal ) . I have even met that over the last 24 hours when its been pretty much a flat line under 6.7% before and after meals.)

I think the libre records a bit light, but even so, overall I'm pretty much within normal ranges within 5 months of a fairly horrendous set of figures on diagnosis. These guys absolutely know what they are talking about.

Basically there appears to be a roll call of stunning doctors and journalists who have pretty much worked this out. I find it completely astonishing that that has not translated into a wholesale radical rethink of the western diet especially for diabetics.
One can only assume that when the litigation finally begins and the world realises we have another " tobacco" or "asbestosis"avalanche of insurance claims, all those who have been supressing this stuff get their just desserts!

Can many people do this without medication ? - absolutely !

 

[douglas99]

@douglas99 your weight loss and the restoration of your health is a huge accomplishment. The most weight I've ever lost is 26 pounds. I could lose more but it requires more discipline and effort than I'm willing to exert for now. That will change when I get some other health issues addressed. I admire you and am striving to restore my health too. Not there yet, but working hard at it.

Will try to answer your question with examples.

I facilitate a type 2 diabetes group. An ongoing problem is how people, both within and outside the diabetes community, often stereotype "fat" and "skinny" people, also those with pre-diabetes, that they're somehow better off or worse off without knowing any of their medical history.

Just as bad is how discouraging it is when type 2's make pre-diabetics feel bad for making an earnest effort to restore their health because "they're not as bad off as those with type 2 diabetes" eventhough the lifestyle changes required are often similar or the same. They are every bit as deserving of ongoing support.

Additionally, flawed perceptions get in the way of identifying those who unknowingly have diabetes because they're "skinny" and the doctor ignores an abnormal blood glucose, doesn't even mention it to the patient, and doesn't investigate further which happened to one of our members who went on to develop what I believe to be LADA.

The newest member of our support group was diagnosed by her doctor with something like "obese onset type 2 diabetes". After hearing her medical history, something I do privately with all our new members, I have no idea how the doctor came to that conclusion, because she had a history of one significantly elevated blood glucose level years prior to becoming obese that was never followed up on. That diagnosis just made her feel worse, when the reverse was more likely true, that the metabolic syndrome lead to the weight gain.

Researchers like Robert Lustig who challenge the perception that "fat" people are always unhealthy and "skinny" people are always healthy are my heros.

To answer your question.

I was very obese.
What made me obese was the amount of food I ate, not why I ate it.
Every appointment with my doctor, probably for decades, I was told to lose weight.
So, after being obese, I then developed diabetic symptoms,
I was diagnosed type 2.
90% of those diagnosed type 2 are obese at that point.
I was very definitely one of the 90%, definitely not in the other 10%.

Very simply to me, if overeating made me obese, dieting would equally make me thin.
Also, the Newcastle diet had shown that losing weight could reverse diabetes, so I was more than happy to find that the link between obesity and diabetes worked both ways for me, but, even if it didn't I still needed to lose weight anyway. I was very well supported by the NHS to achieve this.

So, I don't really have a great issue in whether diabetes makes you obese, or if being obese gives you diabetes.
I don't need to have the highest number to somehow feel more diabetic than others, I don't need to bring my Hba1c down fastest. I don't get involved in whether or not the lower fasting number now wins some sort of prize. I don't get involved in how you achieve the lowest spike after food.
Maybe other's do, as that's their way of coping, but you can't change human nature, and you'll be meeting all sorts at your support group.
Some will be better of knowing, some will be better off not. The trick is actually putting people into the right groups for them, not the one it's thought they should be in.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

Coming off all meds; I have read in several places that diabetics on Metformin have potentially a longer life expectancy than non-diabetics of the same age and sex. I have also read that Metformin may protect against Alzheimer's. So coming off Metformin is a bit of a doubtful target until more research results are in.

It is also a moral poser; should I have a better life expectancy than my partner because she is not diabetic and thus not on Metformin?

Anything else, especially statins, if you can get off them do (IMHO).

Oh, and @douglas99 I thought the ration of obese/overweight to normal weight on diagnosis was 80:20 not 90:10.

 

[Resurgam]

A longer life spent running to the bathroom? Metformin is not for me.

 

[zand]

Yes it's possible to come off all medication. We should remember though that we are all individuals and that some may not be able to stop medication altogether. This doesn't mean that they have failed or 'aren't doing it properly' or haven't tried as hard as the rest of us. It just means they do need the medication. I'm saying this as I know how hard I have struggled with my weight and I sometimes feel a failure alongside those who have lost weight more quickly than me.

 

[CherryAA]

Yes it's possible to come off all medication. We should remember though that we are all individuals and that some may not be able to stop medication altogether. This doesn't mean that they have failed or 'aren't doing it properly' or haven't tried as hard as the rest of us. It just means they do need the medication. I'm saying this as I know how hard I have struggled with my weight and I sometimes feel a failure alongside those who have lost weight more quickly than me.

You are utterly right ! its not a competition at all. It is important though that those just beginning this journey realise that they may have more choices than their doctor has signified. I know for my own doctor my second appointment was one made expressly for the purpose of putting me on medication which it has turned out I do not need ( yet). For much of the medical profession drugs seem to be the first line of defence. Many people may be in the same category and if they don't consider it they will not find out because then they cannot tell what is medication and what is diet and thus find themselves feeling dependent on a drug that they may not actually be dependent upon.

I have myself wondered if should try metformin anyway because of the other supposed health benefits. On the weight front, you are not alone. I lost 23 kilos and whilst that seemed relatively effortless all it really did was move me from morbidly obese to just very obese. The other half feels like it may never start to go so I feel for you.

 

[zand]

You are utterly right ! its not a competition at all. It is important though that those just beginning this journey realise that they may have more choices than their doctor has signified. I know for my own doctor my second appointment was one made expressly for the purpose of putting me on medication which it has turned out I do not need ( yet). For much of the medical profession drugs seem to be the first line of defence. Many people may be in the same category and if they don't consider it they will not find out because then they cannot tell what is medication and what is diet and thus find themselves feeling dependent on a drug that they may not actually be dependent upon.

I have myself wondered if should try metformin anyway because of the other supposed health benefits. On the weight front, you are not alone. I lost 23 kilos and whilst that seemed relatively effortless all it really did was move me from morbidly obese to just very obese. The other half feels like it may never start to go so I feel for you.

Yes I have moved from the morbidly obese to very obese and stuck there too.

Yes I agree it's important for the newly diagnosed to know that they may not need to go along the drugs path. I managed to get off the 6 drugs I was taking 5 years ago so that I was drug free, but am now taking 3 again. I am hoping that I will be able to give them up again eventually, I just wanted to balance the fantastic messages of support on this thread, with a little support for those who try but don't quite manage it. There can be setbacks along the way but it's well worth trying to come off the meds.

 

[douglas99]

I have no problems with taking drugs I need.
When I was diagnosed, I was prescribed drugs I needed at the time.
They worked, the HCP was right to prescribe them
But I'm not hung up in the competition to get 'drug free'.
Together, my HCP and I reduced the drugs as my BG came down, but I'm still on metformin, by choice, and with their agreement.

 

[Winnie53]

@douglas99 I think we share similar views.

By the way, if by chance you have a copy of Jenny Ruhl's newly revised and expanded book, Blood Sugar 101: What They Don't Tell You About Diabetes, 2nd Edition (2016), in "Chapter 3: What Really Causes Diabetes?" she digs into the research on how diabetes develops. If I can find time this week, I'll re-read it and try to summarize it here. Unfortunately my four days off is coming to an end...and I've got a meeting and a walk scheduled today.

Regarding you comment: "The trick is actually putting people into the right groups for them, not the one it's thought they should be in." I agree. That said, I have worked very hard to create a group that is inclusive of all type 2 and pre-diabetic people, though I haven't succeeded yet. We have no members in their 20's, 30's, or 40's yet.

I spent 6 months thinking about how to design our education, support, and walking group to honor each individual's goals and needs. That said, weight loss is not one of our focuses because I haven't studied it, lack experience doing it - (my dieting experience is limited to one month in 2009 when I lost 20 pounds on the South Beach Diet and I was miserable) - and I have no immediate plans to learn about it because I'm personally affected by diabetes and multiple autoimmune conditions.

As the group's facilitator and peer, I'm not able to support others in what I myself have not experienced. My focus and that of our group's is learning how to manage diabetes. We accomplish that with a strong educational emphasis. We're myth busters and truth seekers who try to keep up with the research, which is not possible, but we keep trying...

My 38 pound weight gain was due to pharmaceuticals that I began taking in 1991, changed in 1995, and stopped in 1999. From 1999 to 2009 I gained an additional 42 pounds, an average of 4 pounds a year during a stressful period of my life - (boss with a bad temper who made my work life very difficult at times). My weight has been stable since 2009. By that I mean, my weight goes up and down by about 3 pounds a year. Now that I'm on the low carbohydrate ketogenic diet, it goes up and down by about 6 to 8 pounds a year because I keep knocking myself out of ketosis. When I'm in ketosis, the weight comes back off without effort.

If you've read any of my posts over the last two years, you may have noted that I support people in using the diet that works for them, also the use of medication if it's necessary. And that's how I designed our local group. Most of our members use a variation of the LCHF diet or LCKD. One eats very low carb, and one eats a whole foods, plant based diet. Two members border on being underweight, one is morbidly obese, the rest fall somewhere in between. We do have one member who needs to lose weight for an upcoming surgery. She works directly with a healthcare practitioner and nutritionist who is supporting her with her weight loss goals.

I don't want to weigh 100 pounds again, but I would like to see how it feels to weigh 125 pounds again. I'm at 143 pounds today, so that would require 18 pounds of weight loss The problem is I live in the USA, and we love our herbicides and pesticides. Each time I lose weight I have ugly, itchy outbreaks in my abdominal area. At first I thought it was due to food sensitivities but I'm beginning to see a pattern. The outbreaks happen when I'm losing weight. So for me it probably will be healthier if I lose, stabilize for a while, repeat, to give my body the time it needs to process the toxins that have been released, previously walled off in my fat cells through the decades. Since 2015, I've chosen to eat organic, non-GMO foods, so hopefully I'm limiting toxic exposures now.

Will try to summarize Jenny Ruhl's chapter by next weekend.

 

[Daphne917]

Yes it's possible to come off all medication. We should remember though that we are all individuals and that some may not be able to stop medication altogether. This doesn't mean that they have failed or 'aren't doing it properly' or haven't tried as hard as the rest of us. It just means they do need the medication. I'm saying this as I know how hard I have struggled with my weight and I sometimes feel a failure alongside those who have lost weight more quickly than me.

@zand I am similar to you - I lost about 21/2 stone initially but have slowed down. However I do seem to be able to lose the weight that I put on after holidays and Christmas within a few weeks! I would like to lose some more so I may start reducing my carbs as I tend to eat between 80-100g per day which is quite high compared to many forum members and see if that works!

 

[kokhongw]

You are utterly right ! its not a competition at all. It is important though that those just beginning this journey realise that they may have more choices than their doctor has signified. I

Having the opportunity to make an informed choice is what makes forums like this invaluable.

 

[biffo1966]

Has anyone managed to come off their medication through losing weight? I would love to come off my BP tablet, metformin, statins but wonder if it's just a vicious circle.

Hi Carina
I was diagnosed with diabetes 2009 and put on the usual combination of drugs including Metformin. This seemed to stabilise BG till 3 years ago when it started to rise again...so medication was doubled. Unfortunately last year I needed an emergency operation but the anaesthetist would not allow it because of my HBa1C levels. So it was a crash 800k a day diet plus insulin to get it down so they could do the 51/2 hour operation ..it took 6 weeks. (I can give you the numbers if you are interested)

Then (sorry if this is too long but it might help someone and is important) just before Christmas this year and the weigh had returned I was told HBa1C was back up and still to high ... so I have to inject "VICTOZA" as well as Insulin and all the rest.....This shows the importance of the reoccurring problem....WEIGHT ..there is no magic bullet and I am out of time waiting for one, this progressive disease IS killing me and all the medication currently on offer wont stop it.

I started back on the diet 6 weeks ago. ... I stopped Insulin 4 weeks ago mainly because its more dangerous taking it together with a 1000k diet (hypo) and its terrible fattening I refused the VICTOZA and am currently sticking to the 1000k a day NO carb diet. ( I feel great too) I can tell what I eat if it helps.

(I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS TO ANYONE JUST EXPLAINING WHERE I AM) Of course my BG readings
are raised but I lost 8k in 4 weeks ..I have stuck for the last 2 but I am confident that once I hit my target I will be in control or at least as much as I would have been under my GP and his cocktail of lethal drugs... This is a sorry tale, we all know the real answer is not the medication that GP dole out its the change in us from non-diabetic state to diabetic no need for GP we just need a mirror. The seriousness of this disease was only evident prior to operation.

All GP /diabetic nurse / dietitian /specialist etc should make it clear DIABETES is incurable, progressive and eventually lethal disease . We should be told that day one, medication only compounds the problem we all think its helping and it just isn't. It makes us complacent and It allows a situation to develop that will eventually kill you.

They need to just say it like it is:

YOU ARE CARRYING TOO MUCH WEIGHT... IT WILL KILL YOU.....And we have nothing to stop it.

 

[Resurgam]

What dieticians and other healthcare people don't tell you is that a lot of people can lose weight easily if they eat low carb high fat - because they are bound to say 'oh that will kill you' and dismiss any protests out of hand. Every time I have disregarded the advice and done Atkins the weight just falls off and I feel great, I look great, my waist starts to reappear, I find my ribs. On Induction I was losing so fast I had to slow it down - no other diet ever had the same effect in a week as I got in a day on Atkins. Doing Atkins now I find my blood glucose readings after meals are going down to normal levels.