confused with newly started Newcastle Diet after just one day lol.

[Yorksman]

If you look at the study, if I remember correctly, all the participants were under 10 mmol/L to start, as your first graph shows.

Firstly the graph doesn't show anything other the mean average level of the group, not individual results and secondly, even if it did, there is absolutely nothing to substantiate your claim that (1) it is too fast and (2) there are risks and I ask you once again to quantify the risks.

There have been many studies into acute reduction of plasma glucose levels since Ackermann et al in 1981 (Observations on the improvements in carbohydrate metabolism in diabetic and other morbidly obese patients after jejunoileal bypass). Roy Taylor of the Newcastle team comments on them in 2013, "The acute glucose-lowering effect of certain bariatric procedures before any significant weight loss has occurred has been known for decades" (Mechanism of Metabolic Advantages After Bariatric Surgery). Some of the data show reductions in fasting plasma levels from above 40.0 to below 6.0 within 3 or 4 days. Much has been published on the possible effects of the acute reduction in fasting plasma levels for example, "The authors conclude that acute reduction in plasma glucose level in this group of patients is not associated with significant changes in macular blood flow or in alteration in autoregulation." (Macular blood flow response to acute reduction of plasma glucose in diabetic patients measured by the blue light entoptic technique. Davies et al 1990). There are many similar studies into the effects on liver, kidney and cardio vascular function and nothing that I have seen supports your assertion, an assertion you do not appear to be too willing to defend and seem only able to reiterate as if by repeating it it makes it more true.

 

[Yorksman]

According to Jimmy's profile he is taking three diabetes medicines and insulin and I think his Dr. needs to be heavily involved so that dose adjustments can be made if necessary.. We are not experts and Jim has multiple health problems.
http://www.diabeticretinopathy.org.uk/retinopathyprogression.htm#co

That is of course true and is what Roy Taylor advises:

"You must consult your doctor before embarking upon any very low calorie diet. In particular, any medication you are taking may need to be adjusted. Some general information about this is also on the website. None of this information is a substitute for proper, individual medical advice."

I have to assume that people have actually gone to the Reversing Type 2 Diabetes website, followed the links and read the posted information, otherwise how have they got the information on the diet? The problem is that too many people who don't know but who think they know post make up opinion and attempt to pass it off as fact and fail to substantiate any of it.

Personally, I took Roy Taylor's advice to do it over a period of 6 months, rather than the 8 week hypocalorific diet which is designed to mimick bariatric surgery. I regularly post Taylor's comments on this: "The essential point is that substantial weight loss must be achieved. The time course of weight loss is much less important.", " As outlined above, a more gradual approach to calorie restriction is advised." (Frequently Asked Questions)

 

[catherinecherub]

`jimmy,

IMHO your previous history makes it dangerous for you to carry on.
Reading through your posts I see that you have had three strokes, a heart attack, are on a cocktail of 35 pills daily including warfarin, have angina and high blood pressure that does not respond to treatment.
Whilst not in the danger zone for a hypo, the rapid shift in your blood sugar levels may be causing false hypos which can be very stressful and the last thing that you need is stress. The vomiting may or may not be food poisoning, none of us know and your Dr. may do some blood tests to make sure.
If I was your GP I would get in touch with Professor Taylor to see if he thinks you are a suitable candidate for this diet given your medical history.
People may be very knowledgable about the Newcastle diet but they don't know you and, as happens in many threads, this one has developed into a point scoring exercise in places.
I am concerned for you Jim so please stop the diet and listen to your G.P.

 

[Yorksman]

Hi Yorksman my symptoms were nothing as any of those you describe in your quote, i could not move at worst times when they waved over me, as i have said i feel now that they were caused from heavy food poisoning judging by the stuff that came from my insides. Just strange that i feel normal again right now, think i will stick to cauliflower, although the peppers were firm and crisp i cannot say just how long they had been in the fridge lol.Jim

If it is/was food poisoning, you'd be one of many at the moment. A problem with going into starvation mode, which is what the diet induces, is that your immune system is compromised. "Nutritional deprivation suppresses immune function" (Leptin modulates the T-cell immune response and reverses starvation-induced immunosuppression. Graham et al 1998). If anything is going around, you are much more likely to be unable to fight it off.

You should consult your doctor if you are on medication. Many however are more concerned with the efficient running of their practices rather than keeping abreast of diabetes management which they delegate to sometimes poorly trained nursing staff. The Newcastle team are aware of this and have some information online that you should take to your GP, Information for Doctors. You should find the contents interesting. In particular, "At the time of commencement of decreasing food intake, insulin dose in type 2 diabetes may be substantially decreased, and advice to cut insulin dose by approximately 50% is appropriate."

 

[douglas99]

Firstly the graph doesn't show anything other the mean average level of the group, not individual results and secondly, even if it did, there is absolutely nothing to substantiate your claim that (1) it is too fast and (2) there are risks and I ask you once again to quantify the risks.

There have been many studies into acute reduction of plasma glucose levels since Ackermann et al in 1981 (Observations on the improvements in carbohydrate metabolism in diabetic and other morbidly obese patients after jejunoileal bypass). Roy Taylor of the Newcastle team comments on them in 2013, "The acute glucose-lowering effect of certain bariatric procedures before any significant weight loss has occurred has been known for decades" (Mechanism of Metabolic Advantages After Bariatric Surgery). Some of the data show reductions in fasting plasma levels from above 40.0 to below 6.0 within 3 or 4 days. Much has been published on the possible effects of the acute reduction in fasting plasma levels for example, "The authors conclude that acute reduction in plasma glucose level in this group of patients is not associated with significant changes in macular blood flow or in alteration in autoregulation." (Macular blood flow response to acute reduction of plasma glucose in diabetic patients measured by the blue light entoptic technique. Davies et al 1990). There are many similar studies into the effects on liver, kidney and cardio vascular function and nothing that I have seen supports your assertion, an assertion you do not appear to be too willing to defend and seem only able to reiterate as if by repeating it it makes it more true.

At the risk of point scoring, but in the importance of the correct facts being supplied to the op to make their decision, from the report on the website Yorksman linked to.

"Participants Individuals with type 2 diabetes (age 35–
65 years, HbA1c 6.5–9.0% [48–75 mmol/mol], diabetes
duration <4 years, stable BMI 25–45 kg/m2) were recruited.
Participants were excluded if being treated with thiazolidinediones,
insulin, steroids or beta-blockers, with a serum
creatinine >150 mmol/l, with a serum alanine transaminase
level >2.5-fold above the upper limit of the reference range,
or if there were contraindications for MRI. Statin therapy
was continued".


HbA1c 6.5–9.0% [48–75 mmol/mol],

So a rapid fall in blood glucose was specifically excluded.

Catherine has already given you a link to the main reason to avoid a sudden drop, it's also repeated in the advice to doctors on the website you quoted.
And tbh, I don't give a monkey's if you believe anything or not.
You're not the op, and no doubt they have enough facts and opinions now.

 

[Yorksman]

At the risk of point scoring, but in the importance of the correct facts being supplied to the op to make their decision, from the report on the website Yorksman linked to.

But where is the evidence that a drop from "23 points in 3 days is too fast"?

If the OP is taking insulin and has embarked on a starvation diet he needs to adjust the insulin doseage, but people who take insulin are familiar with altering dosage.

Is your comment above specific to the OP or a general comment on fasting diets, because a lot of people drop a lot more than 23 points.

 

[jimmyr]

First day = Before first shake 27.2, after 25.6, before lunch 23.0, after 16.5. Before Dinner forgot to test, after 11.8. That was first day.
Next day was the big morning drop Before first shake 11.1, after 20.9. lunch 16.1 after 15.6. Dinner after 9.9.
yesterday = 9.5 before, after 11.7, lunch 8.9 after 7.6, dinner 5.8 after 7.8 and after supper 8.3.
today = 8.6 before and after 10.9, and before lunch had dropped to 6.8 cant wait to see what it will be in another 2 hours time.

Spoke to nurse today and she has put the sickness and the you know whats, and feeling literally like i was dying down to the sudden drop in sugars, she says that my body has been expecting and living on much more.
She has asked me to carry on with diet but to have two solid type meals a day up to when i see her on the 29th.

Jim

 

[douglas99]

First day = Before first shake 27.2, after 25.6, before lunch 23.0, after 16.5. Before Dinner forgot to test, after 11.8. That was first day.
Next day was the big morning drop Before first shake 11.1, after 20.9. lunch 16.1 after 15.6. Dinner after 9.9.
yesterday = 9.5 before, after 11.7, lunch 8.9 after 7.6, dinner 5.8 after 7.8 and after supper 8.3.
today = 8.6 before and after 10.9, and before lunch had dropped to 6.8 cant wait to see what it will be in another 2 hours time.

Spoke to nurse today and she has put the sickness and the you know whats, and feeling literally like i was dying down to the sudden drop in sugars, she says that my body has been expecting and living on much more.
She has asked me to carry on with diet but to have two solid type meals a day up to when i see her on the 29th.

Jim

Sounds a sensible compromise.

 

[connie104]

At the risk of point scoring, but in the importance of the correct facts being supplied to the op to make their decision, from the report on the website Yorksman linked to.

"Participants Individuals with type 2 diabetes (age 35–
65 years, HbA1c 6.5–9.0% [48–75 mmol/mol], diabetes
duration <4 years, stable BMI 25–45 kg/m2) were recruited.
Participants were excluded if being treated with thiazolidinediones,
insulin, steroids or beta-blockers, with a serum
creatinine >150 mmol/l, with a serum alanine transaminase
level >2.5-fold above the upper limit of the reference range,
or if there were contraindications for MRI. Statin therapy
was continued".


HbA1c 6.5–9.0% [48–75 mmol/mol],

So a rapid fall in blood glucose was specifically excluded.

Catherine has already given you a link to the main reason to avoid a sudden drop, it's also repeated in the advice to doctors on the website you quoted.
And tbh, I don't give a monkey's if you believe anything or not.
You're not the op, and no doubt they have enough facts and opinions now.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[Yorksman]

Spoke to nurse today and she has put the sickness and the you know whats, and feeling literally like i was dying down to the sudden drop in sugars, she says that my body has been expecting and living on much more.
She has asked me to carry on with diet but to have two solid type meals a day up to when i see her on the 29th.

Pretty much in agreement with Karen Heron's explanation "These are expected as your body adjust to using your fat store as energy source."

If you are on a lot of meds though, did you consider taking the diet at a slower pace? The basis for the hypocalorific diet was that it mimicked the bariatric surgery but the hypothesis is that it is a substantial weight loss that unclogs the islets which contain the beta cells, not the speed. How long have you been diagnosed?

Since the publication of the Counterpoint Study in 2011, a lot of interest was generated and there was a follow up study in 2013 based on submitted self reported data:
Population response to information on reversibility of Type 2 diabetes

 

[jimmyr]

Hi Yorksman, yes mate going to go slower at least until i have the appointment on 29th, going to have two solid meals instead of the one at the end of the day.
Yes matey i am on almost 40 pills a day lol, i hate them, so so much confusion, i have forgot to take them on the odd occasion in the morning, not often, but wow it is so so good a feeling, i feel completely normal, whatever normal is.

 

[jimmyr]

Hi guys just a little update, went to the surgery today to confess about my meds, i told my Diebetic nurse that i have stopped taking my midday and evening diabetic medications, these included Metformin (1000mg) and 20 units of Insulin, and also Glictizide, i took her the paper to read from the Newcastle diet professor, and showed her how my Blood sugars had more than halved since going on the diet a week ago.

Normally i would have to go see her every week, she has told me to come see her in two weeks time "Yippe", she has also told me to carry on with what i am doing at least until i see her next, she was well pleased for me, and she did take the time to read the paper i had presented her with.

Anyway i felt so good that i went and brought one of those Soup making Machines for when things get to normal (hopefully) I tested it out lol, I am not a soup person, for 63 years i have been eating ****, anyway i thought go for it, so i got myself some Onions, Swede, celery, carrots, cauliflower, 250ml of stock and after chopping it all up, it was cooked in 30min, and i could not believe the taste, it was the best vegetable soup i have had, so today was three shakes and my soup that left me full, and i feel great.

Now believe this or not, but before going with this diet, i was suffering with Blurred vision, now i have had to take my glasses of because they were making things Blurred lol, so all seems good guys.
Jim

 

[douglas99]

Excellent news.
The soup sounds good.

Yep, your eyes do change as your blood sugar comes down.

 

[jimmyr]

Douglas the head also feels clear, i even found myself out walking today after the docs, and i actually enjoyed it, before i could not wait to get home.
Jim

 

[Yorksman]

Nice to see that she took the time to read it. My DN and GP were both dismissive.

Mind you, they were both gone a couple of months later and the remaining staff have made it clear they were glad to see them go.

 

[carraway]

Hi Jim

Great to read your update. I hope the improvement continues!

Cara

 

[jimmyr]

Thanks Cara, my awakening level before breakfast today was 5.7, now after lunch it is 6.6, well pleased with the results thus far, going to have remainder of veggie soup this evening meal, nice and filling.

Jim

 

[jimmyr]

Well Depressed today, Blood sugar levels are fine and that is what all this is about, i feel better than i have felt for years, as said before, a clear head, i want to go walks, want to do things Great!.
Well today i had to go to see the Anticoagulant (warfarin) nurse, to hear that the Diet is Playing havoc with the warfarin, i cannot win it would seem, i am not getting enough protein apparently, but i thought the shakes had all the protein i would need.
The reason the Supplement meals were good for me is because they stopped my hunger, if i had had a piddly meal in front of me i would not have coped, i would want more and would have had more.
The thing is i feel great being Me again, the thing also is that i do not know what is happening inside me until a stroke occurs. i wont ask you what to do, i know what you will all say and you will be correct, but i want to be me and not the Zombie i was before, catch 22.

Jim

 

[carraway]

Hmmm.....could you add some protein to your meals? eggs with salad for example? Protein is fine for your blood sugar.

I'm no medical expert but take a look at this

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/4/734.short

Maybe eat two small meals as well as the shakes?

I'm glad you are feeling better, more active.
I think a few tweaks and you should be able to get the balance right.
Can you get the diabetic nurse and the warfrin nurse to work together ( unlikely but worth a mention?)
Or get your GP, who will no doubt be delighted you feel so well, to take an overview


Good luck

Cara

 

[douglas99]

Maybe try a lower calorie balanced diet.
I went down to 800 to 1200 calories, low fat, protein and carbs that suited me.
I lost 4 stone, and got my bg down to a normal level, my ha1bc is good, and feel a lot better.
I will slowly build the calories up, and maybe put in a bit more unsaturated fat to keep the balance, when I want to maintain my weight.