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Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Max68, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    "Isn't this what you want to know rather than whether or not school kids are going to infect you but what happens if you do get infected?" Not necessarily, especially if you are a teacher or have to travel on a bus with shouting schoolchildren. Given that age is the major factor in the risk of serious cases, and given that you cannot change your age, I would have thought that most older people at least would be trying to avoid situations like schools where the risk of infection is high. And that those with co morbidities would be trying also to lessen their risk eg if diabetic trying to reduce bad numbers in BG, LDL and blood pressure.
    Endogenous Deficiency of Glutathione as the Most Likely Cause of Serious Manifestations and Death in COVID-19 Patients https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsinfecdis.0c00288
     
  2. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    On the question of risk of getting infected by the kids (note that diabetics are not more likely to become infected but are more likely if infected to have worse outcomes):
    Some more evidence about child to adult transmission in school setting. Note that this is June and many EU schools were open again from May:
    https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/de...COVID-19-schools-transmission-August 2020.pdf
    What is the evidence of transmission from children (students) to adults (teacher/staff) within the school setting? In an Irish study, 101 adult contacts in the school setting of three SARS-CoV-2 positive children resulted in no additional cases [84]. It is important to note that this study did not consider asymptomatic infections. In Australia, a contact tracing study in 15 primary and high schools where nine student COVID-19 cases were detected found no evidence of any transmission to 128 adult close contacts in the school setting [86]. In the Netherlands, as of June 2020, there had been no reports of possible COVID-19 clusters linked to schools or reports of employees infected by children [81]. In summary, where COVID-19 in children was detected and contacts followed-up, no adult contacts in the school setting have been detected as SARS-CoV-2 positive during the follow-up period. The conclusion from these investigations is that children are not the primary drivers of SARS-CoV-2 transmission to adults in the school setting.
    Glutathione becomes depleted with age and as it is a key antioxidant and part of the immune system. Other than supplements and an intravenous drip I am not sure how it can be topped up in the elderly?

    As you say or infer, you are more at risk on a bus or train or in the staff rom/at parents' evenings but if a working age teacher with diabetes were to get covid 19 then his or her risk of dying or getting ill is still small (look at the numbers as proportion of the overall diabetic population). This is a UK survey and we know death rates peaked before the lock down could have had any effect (April 8th) so this is a reflection of our partial measures taken in Feb and March when infection rates were likely highest and the schools were fully open: Note how steeply risk increases for all diabetics with age.
    https://www.thelancet.com/action/sh...l=true&tableId=tbl2&pii=S2213-8587(20)30272-2
     
  3. Dusty911

    Dusty911 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    #663 Dusty911, Aug 22, 2020 at 11:39 AM
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  4. Dusty911

    Dusty911 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen any study yet on susceptibility to infection yet. Do you have any proof of this statement. The NHS sources I'm reading are saying this is something they are looking.into as a possibility. If this proves to be the case would you then agree that diabetics should have robust measures in place to give them some protection?
     
  5. Max68

    Max68 · Well-Known Member

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    You would think that logic would suggest that the way to fight a pandemic is to drive infections down, not up! Schools = the opening of Pandora's Box!!

    I really am in a right state on what to do at the moment. No updates from the Union or my MP. No option to cash in a pension early and if I leave voluntarily likely to be sanctioned for Universal Credit for up to 26 weeks unless I can find a valid reason for leaving. Valid reason on the Department of Pensions valid reason list that is!!
     
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  6. ert

    ert Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    In Australia, a contact tracing study in 15 primary and high schools where nine student COVID-19 cases were detected found no evidence of any transmission to 128 adult close contacts in the school setting [86]. [/QUOTE]
    I love how Australia is thrown about as evidence that schools are safe. Unlike the UK, we've had very low numbers in the community and have ventilated wide-open spaced schools. Also, we closed our schools in the entire state of Victoria on the 2nd of August for six-weeks with infection numbers still below 400 a day.
    In the UK infections are rising, with a daily rate above 1000. There were 65 COVID related deaths in education before the UK first lockdown. With the vulnerable and extremely vulnerable ordered back to the classroom, how many more deaths are you happy to accept?
    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/ons-figures-reveal-65-covid-related-deaths-in-education/
     
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  7. Dusty911

    Dusty911 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I love how Australia is thrown about as evidence that schools are safe. Unlike the UK, we've had very low numbers in the community and have ventilated wide-open spaced schools. Also, we closed our schools in the entire state of Victoria on the 2nd of August for six-weeks with infection numbers still below 400 a day.
    In the UK infections are rising, with a daily rate above 1000. There were 65 COVID related deaths in education before the UK first lockdown. With the vulnerable and extremely vulnerable ordered back to the classroom, how many more deaths are you happy to accept?
    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/ons-figures-reveal-65-covid-related-deaths-in-education/[/QUOTE]
    The studies and figures and opinions that are often quoted for school safety in the UK were also conducted at a time when very few children were actually at school and so social distancing measures equivalent to those outside school were possible. The fact that such evidence is being actively promoted as proof that children and schools don't need to be worried about transmission when they all go back; n September just makes me doubt the integrity of those in authority pushing this.
     
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  8. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    Near the top of the article you quote it says:
    " When symptomatic, children shed virus in similar quantities to adults and can infect others in a similar way to adults. It is unknown how infectious asymptomatic children are.  While very few significant outbreaks of COVID-19 in schools have been documented, they do occur, and may be difficult to detect due to the relative lack of symptoms in children"
    The article is mainly about how little covid affects the children themselves, not about them spreading it to adults (parents as well as teachers). We also know that the UK will not compare to most other countries who, rather than FORBIDDING masks actually make them compulsory for staff and kids. Boris didn't provide PPE initially for care homes remember, and there was even a shortage in hospitals and GP surgeries for quite a while early in the pandemic. Boris didn't have enough. It's unlikely he has enough to give a mask to each of our nearly 9 million children and their teachers every day, and this is possibly why he says they are unnecessary. When pubs & restaurants couldn't open with 2 m social distancing he suddenly announced that only 1 metre was now necessary. The virus had heard of the problem and had obliged by reducing it's infectivity distance.
     
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  9. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Just wondering if they could use all those masks ordered that were unsuitable for medical use to save them going to waste?
     
  10. ert

    ert Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    It makes me cross when I see people trying to justify their own stance by misquoting science, rather than correctly interpreting the science within the parameters and limitations it was written within. It's equivalent to finding one share price that's gone down when the FTSE 100 index has gone up and using this out of context to justify their opinion.
     
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  11. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Legend

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    What makes you think the government would have to provide the masks? We all have to wear them on public transport and indoor places or risk fines, but we all buy our own. The school staff will most likely have their own anyway. Yes, there will be children whose families would struggle to buy them, but perhaps allowing free masks to those on benefits etc. would help.
     
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  12. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    The studies and figures and opinions that are often quoted for school safety in the UK were also conducted at a time when very few children were actually at school and so social distancing measures equivalent to those outside school were possible. The fact that such evidence is being actively promoted as proof that children and schools don't need to be worried about transmission when they all go back; n September just makes me doubt the integrity of those in authority pushing this.[/QUOTE]
    Agree that the NSW study was done in the Aussie summer and as you rightly state there were few community cases which is why I also looked at the EU study that covers schools open in European countries with infection prevalent albeit declining. Sweden kept its schools open and yet still the majority of death occurred in its care homes and it has maturely accepted responsibility for that unlike our own government.
    If you do not accept the evidence being presented for a normal return to schools then don't quote case numbers in the same post as evidence in support of your belief.
     
  13. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry as I am sure kindly retailer will take advantage of the panic pandemic evinced in this thread and supply some branded masks! And look how well they are doing in Thailand:
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    Someone should send this to the Minister of Education. Schools in other countries have been made safe. Here in the UK they have not.
     
  15. Dusty911

    Dusty911 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I thought you were at pains not to accuse folk here of panic?
     
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  16. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    I am not panicking, but I am planning. I guess it will take 2 to 6 weeks for my delivery driver's children to infect him. And the packers' children to infect them. So I am going to get my last supermarket delivery about mid Sept. It will contain several packs of dried beans/lentils so that if need be I could survive the probable 4 to 8 month wait for a vaccine. Then I only have to try to avoid cutting myself in the garden causing a need to go to a hospital for a tetanus jab, or getting some other injury which might need medical attention. Both unlikely so I should be able to stay indoors. Then I shall only have my adult children and their children to worry about.
     
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  17. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Good to see you're not panicking!
     
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  18. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Legend

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    Not panicking?
     
  19. Hopeful34

    Hopeful34 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    The packer and delivery driver may not have children. If they do they may be home schooled, not yet at school/nursery etc or may not get Covid. Even if they do, delivery drivers that have come to me have kept 2 metres away, and left the food in plastic bags on my driveway. Any frozen or fridge food in packets can then be washed down if you wish, and non perishables 'left to hibernate' for 2 days, before putting them away. This eliminates any risk of anything being passed on.
    You have to do what is right for you, but but we may never get a vaccine for Covid, and personally I'm very grateful for the people who pack and deliver my shopping, meaning I can have fresh produce weekly.
     
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  20. DavidGrahamJones

    DavidGrahamJones Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought to add to the confusion. I have four friends friends who have had Covid19. Two of them, a mother and daughter were in the same household where the daughter had caught the virus from a work colleague who actually died as a result of Covid19. Yet my mate Wyn, the father, had no symptoms at all. Did he have the virus and remain completely asymptomatic. Another one of the four had tested positive, yet his wife and two children showed no signs. The wife of the fourth person also showed no signs of the virus. So the virus seems to behave in a strange way, maybe some people are already immune? Who knows.
     
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