Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

purplesally said:

Get on the CQC website - Look up requirements for care homes. Loads of information there including the requirement to complete individual staff risk assessments at all times not just during Covid. We complete them for all staff with a possible issue, allergies, asthma, diabetes etc. They are restricting inspections but are hot on anywhere issues have been hilighted. They also state exactly what PPE equipment should be used and when. I manage a care service and found them really helpful and human throughout the pandemic

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Thankyou purplesally. I have just been on CQC website but couldnt find anything specific to staff risk assessment. I even googled the phrase in relation to staff risk assessments and CQC. It is early in day and only on my first coffee so it could be me. I did wonder if it's on a provider only section that I cant access? Thanks again for your time.

bulkbiker said:

So you don't think that" not having any evidence" at this stage of possibly the most investigated virus the world has ever seen isn't quite telling?

Logic and "science" has obviously gone out of the window.

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No.

I think every argument and every piece of evidence should be scrutinised. And I think that areas where we are clearly lacking information, studies, and sensible debate are areas that need closer scrutiny.

which is a very different thing from the glossed over selectively chosen sound bites you seem to prefer lately.

bulkbiker said:

So you don't think that" not having any evidence" at this stage of possibly the most investigated virus the world has ever seen isn't quite telling?

Logic and "science" has obviously gone out of the window.

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Hi, sorry but those seem to be sweeping statements again. In your quoted article itself it says there is evidence of transmission between children. That is the science. Almost every sentence of your referenced article mentions transmissions, even though there are low sample size. That doesn't mean the cases don't exist, but that testing accross the world isn't as wide spread as it could be. However, they also say there is significant transmission within adolescent populations: 'Limited data on positive cases in schools have not demonstrated significant transmission, except within adolescent populations.'

Again, your quoted article supports neither side of the argument about whether schools should open without any measures in place, which I believe was the original question. It says there are cases of transmission, but with low sample sizes so far, and over an investigation period where most children have had reduced contact, many not attending school at all. It is similar to trying to reference a study measuring the frequency of Christmas songs played in shops throughout March-August. There might be some, but the setting of the study provides fundamental limitations about the conclusions you can draw.

This virus is not the most investigated in the world. It is novel. It was unheard of last year. Scientific studies have been pushed out, rushed, because there has been a need, but many have themselves admitted low sample sizes and the rushed nature of the process being a limitation. Think about how well diabetes is studied, and yet there is still so much we don't yet know. Robust studies take place over many months, and quite frankly we are almost still at the stage where the virus has only been investigated for many months (though we can make assumptions based on other coronaviruses).The facts are that healthcare systems accross the world have been overwhelmed. The logical progression is to proceed with caution so there is no repeat.

And as if by magic look what pops up on my Twitter feed .. a discussion about the death of logic and science in the response to COVID.

I fear this is going more and more off topic. This video shows 3 people of the same opinion talking about the economics of lockdown, no discussion.

This thread is not to discuss if we should be in lockdown, but to offer support and advice to those who are clinically vulnerable or extremely vulnerable ahead of returning to work. Again, your reference does not support your claim - no where does this chat show the 'death of logic and science'. It includes an economist pushing a recovery of the economy, based in a country with an even more stringent lockdown still in place. Healthcare systems were overwhelmed accross the world. This thread is to aid vulnerable and extremely vulnerable people in going back to work, while preventing those healthcare systems from being overwhelmed again. I don't think anyone here is saying we should still be in full lockdown as we were on the 23rd March. However, it is clear there is a threat of overwhelming the healthcare system if everyone returns to how they behaved pre-lockdown. You earlier quoted article clearly states there is transmission between young people. So it would be 'the death of science' if we put absolutely no extra measures in place in schools at all, as is being suggested by some.

Remember, a lot of things will have muptiple positive effects at reducing transmission of other communicable diseases also, keeping a little physical distance from strangers and improved hygiene are not there to the detriment of people.

I’m watching The Fat Emperor’s broadcast as I write this and I have to say that I’ve already heard a few assertions that I find too assured. For example, they’re comparing lockdowns without taking into account the stage at which lockdown occurred in different places; they’re comparing events in a closed systems area such as the Diamond Princess and open areas like protests; they’re assuming that known communicable diseases such as TB, against which there’s an effective vaccine, can be compared with Covid.

On returning to work, I’m lucky to be retired and can, with my younger daughter’s distant physical help, carry out my pension boosting job online, by messaging, by phone. I’m aware of building in measures to ensure the Covid safety of the people who I feel responsible towards.
I believe that the stricture that a work place needs to be safe is still operative. Would it help if all those who face returning sent a document to relevant managers and governing bodies listing the measures required to make them safe?
Maybe this has already been covered, forgive me if it has.

I think this conversation shows the difference between being open minded and having an agenda. D

Brunneria said:

No.

I think every argument and every piece of evidence should be scrutinised. And I think that areas where we are clearly lacking information, studies, and sensible debate are areas that need closer scrutiny.

which is a very different thing from the glossed over selectively chosen sound bites you seem to prefer lately.

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bulkbiker said:

Very

https://dontforgetthebubbles.com/evidence-summary-paediatric-covid-19-literature/

" Notably, the China/WHO joint commission could not recall episodes during contact tracing where transmission occurred from a child to an adult. Studies of multiple family clusters have revealed children were unlikely to be the index case, in Guangzhou, China, Israel, the USA, Switzerland and internationally. Limited data on positive cases in schools have not demonstrated significant transmission, except within adolescent populations. Studies of younger children in schools have found low rates of transmission, but with very low case numbers."

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“Except within adolescent populations. “ Isn’t that secondary school? The ones that are in “bubbles“ of 350 pupil year groups, moving classes to a different sardine packed classroom every hour? And not expected or even allowed to wear masks have barriers etc

How many adults would go to their office if this was what their bosses demanded? Not that many.

And to not send them renders the parent a criminal and in the final year means messing up their GCSE’s. Hobsons choice right now

I am so glad I am retired with grandchildren well out of school and uni days. It must be horrible choices for those who have to go out to work (anywhere) and for those with school age children or grandchildren.

Grandson starts his third year of Uni in September he will still be living in student accommodation so there will be about 200 people living in the accommodation block many of them new students very difficult to keep your distance though he was ill for a week or so in the last term with Covid 19 symptoms so it is likely he has had it recovered and optimistically may have some immunity his trips home will be very infrequent.

A thought has occurred to me, if children do not transmit Covid19 why is it still the case that officially grandparents are not able to babysit (unless socially distancing!)? This is the case if there are two parents and 2 grandparents.
Most children in school live in a family environment where anyone in the family may have Covid19 and some possibly won’t even know. Personally, I think everyone should wear a mask in school but this has been ruled out by the government. I contacted my head as I work in school. I am currently working in isolation but returning to the classroom in September. My doctor has said it is important I socially distance. This is impossible in a classroom with 30 children and another adult. I have asked if I can wear a face visor (so the children can still see my face). She has agreed if I feel I need to but I must explain I have reason for doing this to adults and children, though not necessarily saying what that reason is. I am buying the visor and keeping it clean. I am hoping this will keep me safe or a vaccine is not too far away.

Jbicheno said:

A thought has occurred to me, if children do not transmit Covid19 why is it still the case that officially grandparents are not able to babysit (unless socially distancing!)? This is the case if there are two parents and 2 grandparents.
Most children in school live in a family environment where anyone in the family may have Covid19 and some possibly won’t even know. Personally, I think everyone should wear a mask in school but this has been ruled out by the government. I contacted my head as I work in school. I am currently working in isolation but returning to the classroom in September. My doctor has said it is important I socially distance. This is impossible in a classroom with 30 children and another adult. I have asked if I can wear a face visor (so the children can still see my face). She has agreed if I feel I need to but I must explain I have reason for doing this to adults and children, though not necessarily saying what that reason is. I am buying the visor and keeping it clean. I am hoping this will keep me safe or a vaccine is not too far away.

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Yes exactly - there is no evidence to say outright that children do not transmit it. In fact there is evidence to say they do transmit it, though the sample sizes have so far been low.
I don't personally see how we will have a widely rolled out vaccine before next summer at the earliest, but agree a visor seems a good go between so children can still see your face. This is particularly important for anyone with hearing impairment, though I've also seen some clear masks for exactly this purpose (with a clear section in the middle). I don't see how there can be any objection if you're funding it yourself? My school has said they will fund PPE for anyone who is expected to spend more than 15 mins closer than 2m to others, which I think is quite generous. This is mainly TAs and Fist Aiders. I don't see how they can object if you choose to buy something yourself though?

My child’s secondary school has just published their plan (as it stands right now). They are trying to limit year group contact, have one way systems, closed changing rooms, staggering lunch areas/times, all seats facing forward etc. So they are trying, within the guidelines.

The trouble is the guidelines are wrong and contradict all other guidance they are giving regarding distancing/mitigation and sequential exposure etc. Nor does the plan make any allowance for the vulnerable - pupils, staff or families. They actually ban face coverings even though their guidance doesn’t say to.

For a break from the stress of this child’s “work environment “ I can worry about another child waiting on weirdly assessed a level results and off to uni halls for the first time this year......choice swayed by covid to staying more local in case of another shut down. Not sure how I’ll feel about his mixing at uni then visiting home.....so many conflicting issues to deal with in September. Oh and Mr Hsss lost his job too and has little hope of finding another in his field and there’s little out there at all right now. So I have every reason to jump on the economy/education bandwagon rather than be convinced we are potentially making huge health mistakes but I just cannot make that leap.

HSSS said:

My child’s secondary school has just published their plan (as it stands right now). They are trying to limit year group contact, have one way systems, closed changing rooms, staggering lunch areas/times, all seats facing forward etc. So they are trying, within the guidelines.

The trouble is the guidelines are wrong and contradict all other guidance they are giving regarding distancing/mitigation and sequential exposure etc. Nor does the plan make any allowance for the vulnerable - pupils, staff or families. They actually ban face coverings even though their guidance doesn’t say to.

For a break from the stress of this child’s “work environment “ I can worry about another child waiting on weirdly assessed a level results and off to uni halls for the first time this year......choice swayed by covid to staying more local in case of another shut down. Not sure how I’ll feel about his mixing at uni then visiting home.....so many conflicting issues to deal with in September. Oh and Mr Hsss lost his job too and has little hope of finding another in his field and there’s little out there at all right now. So I have every reason to jump on the economy/education bandwagon rather than be convinced we are potentially making huge health mistakes but I just cannot make that leap.

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I think the situation gets more complex after each government conference. From August its between employers and employees. Education do at least seem to be trying to keep everyone safe,though quite how I dont know. Everyone is affected in so many ways and there are so few reliable solutions and no one really knows the answers yet. I too have frequently wondered whether I'm over anxious about the health risks. Then I have moments of clarity when realise that in my particular circumstances the cumulative risks including a mismanaged care home are high. My friendship group are the same, those of us who are high risk or who have close contact with someone who is are continuing to socially distance and meet in gardens etc. All those that work for local government are working from home and are expecting to until new year at least. My GP has somewhat grudgingly signed me off from work with anxiety caused by risk of catching covid at work. At least it gives me time to gather info on whether I resign or wait to be sacked. Its still early days and things can change rapidly.

UK T1 said:

This video shows 3 people of the same opinion talking about the economics of lockdown, no discussion.

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I have to presume you didn't watch it then.

HSSS said:

“Except within adolescent populations. “ Isn’t that secondary school? The ones that are in “bubbles“ of 350 pupil year groups, moving classes to a different sardine packed classroom every hour? And not expected or even allowed to wear masks have barriers etc

How many adults would go to their office if this was what their bosses demanded? Not that many.

And to not send them renders the parent a criminal and in the final year means messing up their GCSE’s. Hobsons choice right now

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and do those same children not have sibling or go home? the idea that what is suggested is safe is illogical.

Jbicheno said:

A thought has occurred to me, if children do not transmit Covid19 why is it still the case that officially grandparents are not able to babysit (unless socially distancing!)? This is the case if there are two parents and 2 grandparents.
Most children in school live in a family environment where anyone in the family may have Covid19 and some possibly won’t even know. Personally, I think everyone should wear a mask in school but this has been ruled out by the government. I contacted my head as I work in school. I am currently working in isolation but returning to the classroom in September. My doctor has said it is important I socially distance. This is impossible in a classroom with 30 children and another adult. I have asked if I can wear a face visor (so the children can still see my face). She has agreed if I feel I need to but I must explain I have reason for doing this to adults and children, though not necessarily saying what that reason is. I am buying the visor and keeping it clean. I am hoping this will keep me safe or a vaccine is not too far away.

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If I can get the virus from hand transmission from a tin of beans in a supermarket, how can I not get the virus from hand or clothing, or schools items transmission from children of any age? If I can get the virus from my post or shopping, how does it mysteriously jump off children or is rendered safe by touching their items or bodies? Do they have an invisible force field which renders the virus inert?

There is no logic to the claims that schools and children are safe. It is merely that we consumer units (people) are being driven back to work at the risk of ourselves and our children's lives or future health.