I wish the teachers would strike for the right to wear protective gear themselves at least.
Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat
- Thread starter Max68
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I wish we were allowed these things even in primary schools. However, it seems unlikely given they will not even allow vulnerable people wear masks.
I think any of you who do not work in schools would be amazed to see people carrying on as though Covid 19 does not exist in schools. It truly is a parallel universe. Whilst many of the older staff are concerned, I haven’t heard many of the younger teachers saying much. That may be because I never go to the staff room though.
I'm so glad that you had a lovely send off with the potential for a return at some stage. I'm also glad that you are no longer in such a stressful and high risk situation .
I would also like to thankyou for starting this thread which has supported so many people. There may be few answers out there but realising you are not alone is so important.
It seems hard to believe it was only July this thread was started.! Stay safe!
Mr_Pot
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It's a long time since I have been in a school. Do they normally have air conditioning in the UK? I assume that it is not on in the winter anyway.
They do in my school. Funnily enough this week we had a radio call come through from a teacher who asked the caretaker to come and turn the A/C off because some pupils were too cold. So in that class A/C was turned off and windows were closed.
No worries at all, it's been great support for me as well. I'm going to keep it going as in the words of the old BT advert from the 70's I think used to say "It's good to talk!". Hopefully we can put the thread to rest as a goodbye to Covid when it comes!! I'll happily delete it myself!
I did some digging last night for Jbicheno and the PPE wearing situation. I scanned Gov.uk and even general UK Health and Safety guidance for employers.
Interestingly I can find absolutely nothing cast in stone regarding if anyone in employment has a "right to wear PPE" if they feel the need. However I could also find absolutely nothing cast in stone that states employees "can't" wear PPE if they so wish. This relates to Covid. If you searched with regard to working with say asbestos then you wouldn't have a problem finding that cast iron answer. Most of the legislation written seems to be about students in masks rather than staff.
So it leads the question that if you turned up at work in a school wearing a mask and visor then could that school or authority actually stop you?¬! After all it's health and safety, especially if you are vulnerable and take into account Union legislation suggesting "reasonable adjustments".
If you lost your job then it would make for an interesting Tribunal in work and law.
Doing this has crossed my mind. Especially as in a document produced by my LA ‘Covid Guidance for Primary Schools’ it states with regard to staff ‘in circumstances where the request is reasonable’ they can be allowed. I did send this to my headteacher but got no reply. I have told Occupational Health about it and am still waiting for a reply. I have asked for a revised individual risk assessment and am still waiting for that too. I’m hoping OH find in my favour but as you say, nothing is cast in stone.
I’m so fed up with hearing the ‘hands, face, space’ adverts encouraging you to follow this advice. That is exactly what I want to do!
I’m so fed up with hearing the ‘hands, face, space’ adverts encouraging you to follow this advice. That is exactly what I want to do!
Just turn up in one. I know they could 'order' you to take it off but they would have some explaining to do given you are in a higher risk category and this, by any standards is a reasonable adjustment. That puts the ball in their court. x
Fully agree with this. You could even argue it the other way around in that you are wearing the mask to protect others (staff and students) so if they turn it down then they are not catering to a schools policy of a duty of care.
"Duty of Care is about individual wellbeing, welfare, compliance and good practice.
All workplaces, whether a school, a business, or a voluntary organisation have a moral and a legal obligation to ensure that everyone associated with the establishment, whether employee, volunteer, student, tradesperson or the general public, is fully protected from any personal physical and/or emotional harm, either on the premises or when engaged in activities relating to the establishment.
Typical areas of concern are fire safety, health and safety, food safety, personal safety, child and adult protection (plus wider safeguarding such as safer recruitment), equality, bullying, violence, harassment, stress, or discrimination from any source.
A breach of duty occurs when one person or an organisation has a duty of care toward another person or organisation but fails to live up to that standard. A person may be liable for negligence in a personal injury case if their breach of duty caused another person's injuries or mental ill health.
By being able to demonstrate that anyone requiring training on these areas has been trained and is up to date, the employer is able to provide evidence that they have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that the wellbeing of every person associated with the establishment is supported.
A clear benefit for the employer is that when everyone associated with their organisation can see that their wellbeing is important they feel much more valued and it builds trust and job satisfaction. They will also feel empowered to raise concerns about unsafe practice and to act on their concerns.
By taking effective steps to ensure that all relevant individuals receive the right training the organisation can promote good practice, reduce risk, eliminate ignorance and create and sustain a safe environment."
No. We have a lady who works in conjunction with our SENCO who helps children. However, she is not independent.
Mmm, that's surprising. My school was independent rather than council but we had an internal HR Dept and payroll. When I was chasing my risk assessment I contacted HR re using a Union and HR quickly got onto my Head. Council run schools have an external HR I think. Quite strange only having one lady. I would definitely get back to the Union as they certainly don't sound as proactive as they are in my region, but it can be down to what advisor you have been allocated. I would also get in touch with the Citizens Advice Bureau as well as they can be really helpful in these situations.
Thank you Max. I’m going to get on to them next week. I was giving OH a chance to reply but they haven’t yet. Maybe the Union can chase them too.
I found that just going all out with everyone was the best policy in the end. If anyone gets grumpy about the Union getting involved just state that things are dragging on and an appointment in say December is unacceptable. What the point in trying to stay safe if your "staying safe" meeting isn't for another month?!
It's interesting how those outside the school system don't seem concerned. I had to bite my lip with my sister earlier because she really doesn't think I should have left my job considering the possible job market in the near future. Yet she is concerned that staff in her sons school aren't wearing masks!! She seemed surprised when I said the town where my school is has the highest rate of infection in the county. I just raised my eyes to the heavens on the phone. Unless you work in that environment or something similar then you have no way of understanding it. In my sisters case she clearly thinks I am over reacting and she might possibly be right, but then again when it's not you who is taking that risk it is easy to say!
lucylocket61
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you are not over reacting. Joined up thinking seems to be a challenge for some people.
I must admit, my family have been pretty supportive. Hubby is an essential worker (transport). His company has bought them the best PPE from the start. He has the option to work from home (he is a manager-the construction side of transport). If he does go to the office, which he does mainly-don’t know what this says about me haha-it is to an office that holds about 40 people, never more than 10, screens own area, alcohol gel everywhere etc. Both sons have been working from home from the start apart from one day when the go back to work thing happened. Both their employers decided it was better and safer for them to work from home. None of them can understand why I can’t wear a mask. I’m the only one out of us all that has an underlying health condition. Hubby is the same age as me, one son is 33 the other is 28.
In my case, it’s the people I work with and above who seem to be struggling to understand. However, I still feel isolated because they all think I should be able to make them see reason.
In my case, it’s the people I work with and above who seem to be struggling to understand. However, I still feel isolated because they all think I should be able to make them see reason.
I totally sympathise! I think if those who were not vulnerable were not taking such strict precautions it wouldnt be so stressful. The difference between your work situation and your husbands sums it up perfectly. If you had described that situation a year ago it would have been unthinkable!
Once again it's down to public perception. Social care and education, and in particular education have been devalued for years. When public services were being cut initially it was mainly staff cutbacks. There was zero public sympathy as anyone working for local government was viewed as having excessive wages and massive pensions. For those in the higher tiers maybe,but frontline workers in schools,day centres,social work not the case. Yes you have better terms and conditions but only in terms of what other professionals consider basic such as sick pay and permenant contracts.!
The bad press has continued,teachers are overpaid and under worked etc etc. I'm not sure there is much concern about any teaching staff let alone vulnerable ones!
Today Independent Sage discussed the issues faced by schools. All of which totally foreseeable and preventable(but it would have taken investment and organisation of extra teaching spaces). Its interesting listening. One speaker mentions briefly that opening up schools could be viewed as another way of promoting herd immunity. Even on independent Sage vulnerable groups are rarely mentioned. A member of the public today did raise a question of protection of high risk groups who had to work and were at risk. The answer seemed incredibly vague and seemed to rely on those infected being isolated.
Another interesting article in independent briefly discussed how Coronavirus is different from other pandemics,especially the Spanish Flu. The crux is how highly infectious it is before people show symptoms. Looking back over other scares such as bird flu,swine flu etc etc I dont remember feeling any sense of risk although perceived as serious.
I received an email off Diabetes Uk today saying how they were approaching the government along with other charities regarding support for extremely vulnerable groups. Two things stood out for me in the email. Firstly there seemed to be a leaning towards those that were shielded,necessary but I'm not holding out for a fight on behalf of those who high risk but not shielded. Secondly,other than at the very beginning of the pandemic diabetes seems to not be mentioned. I've not seen any coverage by charities representing high risk groups.
Again it's down to public perception of who the vulnerable or high risk are. Any comments section on any article regarding this will frequently state that it's hard but those that are vulnerable just have to self isolate. Much is said of those who may not be medically vulnerable facing exposure to the virus to keep a roof over their heads. Never seems to occur to people that high risk people in same position or if it does theirs not a lot of concern.
Those that are dying are seen as being over 70,a group who have been devalued any way.
I think another area that seems to get a lot of publicity is those that are in vulnerable groups but very publicly ignore the risk or ridicule it. It's their opinion and their choice but they seem to get more coverage than those in the situation we have found ourselves in.
So yes,we do find ourselves as high risk individuals in employment where we are exposed to high levels of the virus. It's a situation those not vulnerable to the virus but who were hairdressers for example by law wouldnt be allowed to be in! No wonder we feel gas lighted.!
I think there are too many of us. Our employers hands are tied. As our the Unions. The government simply isnt interested,we are inconsequential.
I think the recent school meals argument shows perfectly how the government thinks. They blame the parents and show a total lack of humanity. Of course within 24 hours small and large businesses are offering lunches,same way as food banks supplement low pay and a not fit for purpose benefit system. The government havent had to spend a penny. They must be rubbing their hands with glee!
Interesting article on the virus.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54648684
A simple virus has brought life as we know it to a screeching halt.
We have faced viral threats before, including pandemics, yet the world does not shut down for every new infection or flu season.
So what is it about this coronavirus? What are the quirks of its biology that pose a unique threat to our bodies and our lives?
Master of deception
In the early stages of an infection the virus is able to deceive the body.
Coronavirus can be running rampant in our lungs and airways and yet our immune system thinks everything is a-ok.
"This virus is brilliant, it allows you to have a viral factory in your nose and feel completely well," says Prof Paul Lehner from the University of Cambridge.
Our body's cells start releasing chemicals - called interferons - once they are being hijacked by a virus and this is a warning signal to the rest of the body and the immune system.
But the coronavirus has an "amazing capability" of switching off this chemical warning, Prof Lehner says, "it does it so well you don't even know you're ill".
He says when you look at infected cells in the laboratory you cannot tell they have been infected and yet tests show they are "screaming with virus" and this is just one of the "joker cards" the virus can play.
It behaves like a 'hit and run' killer
The amount of virus in our body begins to peak the day before we begin to get sick.
But it takes at least a week before Covid progresses to the point where people need hospital treatment.
"This is a really brilliant evolutionary tactic - you don't go to bed, you go out and have a good time," says Prof Lehner.
So the virus is like a dangerous driver fleeing the scene - the virus has moved on to the next victim long before we either recover or die.
In stark terms, "the virus doesn't care" if you die, says Prof Lehner, "this is a hit and run virus".
This is a massive contrast with the original Sars-coronavirus, back in 2002. It was most infectious days after people became ill, so they were easy to isolate.
It's new, so our bodies are unprepared
Remember the last pandemic? In 2009 there were huge fears about H1N1, aka swine flu.
However, it turned out to be no way near as deadly as anticipated because older people already had some protection. The new strain was similar enough to some that had been encountered in the past.
There are four other human coronaviruses, which cause common cold symptoms.
Prof Tracy Hussell from the University of Manchester, said: "This is a new one, so we don't think there's much prior immunity there."
The newness of Sars-CoV-2, to give it the official name, she says, can be "quite a shock to your immune system".
This lack of prior-protection is comparable to when Europeans took smallpox with them to the New World, with deadly consequences.
Building an immune defence from scratch is a real problem for older people, as their immune system is slow off the mark.
Learning to fight a new infection involves a lot of trial and error from the immune system.
But in older age we produce a less diverse pool of T-cells - a core component of the immune system - so it is harder to find ones that can defend against Coronavirus.
It does peculiar and unexpected things to the body
Covid starts off as a lung disease (even there it does strange and unusual things) and can affect the whole body.
Prof Mauro Giacca, from King's College London, says many aspects of Covid are "unique" to the disease, indeed "it is different from any other common viral disease".
He says the virus does more than simply kill lung cells, it corrupts them too. Cells have been seen fusing together into massive and malfunctioning cells - called syncytia - that seem to stick around.
And Prof Giacca says you can have "complete regeneration" of the lungs after severe flu, but "this does not happen" with Covid.
"It is quite a peculiar infection," he said.
Blood clotting also goes strangely awry in Covid, with stories of doctors unable to get a line into a patient because it is immediately blocked with clotted blood.
Clotting chemicals in the blood are "200%, 300%, 400% higher" than normal in some Covid patients, says Prof Beverly Hunt from King's College London.
She told Inside Health: "Quite honestly, in a very long career, I've never seen any group of patients with such sticky blood."
These whole-body effects could be due to the cellular doorway the virus strolls through to infect our cells - called the ACE2 receptor. It is found throughout the body including in blood vessels, the liver and kidneys, as well as the lungs.
The virus can cause runaway inflammation in some patients, making the immune system go into overdrive, with damaging consequences for the rest of the body.
And we're fatter than we should be
Covid is worse if you are obese, as a generous waistline increases the risk of needing intensive care, or death.
This is unusual.
"Its very strong association with obesity is something we haven't seen with other viral infections. With other lung injuries, obese people often do better rather than worse," said Prof Sir Stephen O'Rahilly, from the University of Cambridge.
"It looks pretty specific [to Covid] it probably happens in pandemic flu, but not regular flu."
Fat deposited throughout the body, in organs like the liver, causes a metabolic disturbance which seems to combine badly with coronavirus.
Obese patients are more likely to have higher levels of inflammation in the body and proteins that can lead to clotting.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54648684
A simple virus has brought life as we know it to a screeching halt.
We have faced viral threats before, including pandemics, yet the world does not shut down for every new infection or flu season.
So what is it about this coronavirus? What are the quirks of its biology that pose a unique threat to our bodies and our lives?
Master of deception
In the early stages of an infection the virus is able to deceive the body.
Coronavirus can be running rampant in our lungs and airways and yet our immune system thinks everything is a-ok.
"This virus is brilliant, it allows you to have a viral factory in your nose and feel completely well," says Prof Paul Lehner from the University of Cambridge.
Our body's cells start releasing chemicals - called interferons - once they are being hijacked by a virus and this is a warning signal to the rest of the body and the immune system.
But the coronavirus has an "amazing capability" of switching off this chemical warning, Prof Lehner says, "it does it so well you don't even know you're ill".
He says when you look at infected cells in the laboratory you cannot tell they have been infected and yet tests show they are "screaming with virus" and this is just one of the "joker cards" the virus can play.
It behaves like a 'hit and run' killer
The amount of virus in our body begins to peak the day before we begin to get sick.
But it takes at least a week before Covid progresses to the point where people need hospital treatment.
"This is a really brilliant evolutionary tactic - you don't go to bed, you go out and have a good time," says Prof Lehner.
So the virus is like a dangerous driver fleeing the scene - the virus has moved on to the next victim long before we either recover or die.
In stark terms, "the virus doesn't care" if you die, says Prof Lehner, "this is a hit and run virus".
This is a massive contrast with the original Sars-coronavirus, back in 2002. It was most infectious days after people became ill, so they were easy to isolate.
It's new, so our bodies are unprepared
Remember the last pandemic? In 2009 there were huge fears about H1N1, aka swine flu.
However, it turned out to be no way near as deadly as anticipated because older people already had some protection. The new strain was similar enough to some that had been encountered in the past.
There are four other human coronaviruses, which cause common cold symptoms.
Prof Tracy Hussell from the University of Manchester, said: "This is a new one, so we don't think there's much prior immunity there."
The newness of Sars-CoV-2, to give it the official name, she says, can be "quite a shock to your immune system".
This lack of prior-protection is comparable to when Europeans took smallpox with them to the New World, with deadly consequences.
Building an immune defence from scratch is a real problem for older people, as their immune system is slow off the mark.
Learning to fight a new infection involves a lot of trial and error from the immune system.
But in older age we produce a less diverse pool of T-cells - a core component of the immune system - so it is harder to find ones that can defend against Coronavirus.
It does peculiar and unexpected things to the body
Covid starts off as a lung disease (even there it does strange and unusual things) and can affect the whole body.
Prof Mauro Giacca, from King's College London, says many aspects of Covid are "unique" to the disease, indeed "it is different from any other common viral disease".
He says the virus does more than simply kill lung cells, it corrupts them too. Cells have been seen fusing together into massive and malfunctioning cells - called syncytia - that seem to stick around.
And Prof Giacca says you can have "complete regeneration" of the lungs after severe flu, but "this does not happen" with Covid.
"It is quite a peculiar infection," he said.
Blood clotting also goes strangely awry in Covid, with stories of doctors unable to get a line into a patient because it is immediately blocked with clotted blood.
Clotting chemicals in the blood are "200%, 300%, 400% higher" than normal in some Covid patients, says Prof Beverly Hunt from King's College London.
She told Inside Health: "Quite honestly, in a very long career, I've never seen any group of patients with such sticky blood."
These whole-body effects could be due to the cellular doorway the virus strolls through to infect our cells - called the ACE2 receptor. It is found throughout the body including in blood vessels, the liver and kidneys, as well as the lungs.
The virus can cause runaway inflammation in some patients, making the immune system go into overdrive, with damaging consequences for the rest of the body.
And we're fatter than we should be
Covid is worse if you are obese, as a generous waistline increases the risk of needing intensive care, or death.
This is unusual.
"Its very strong association with obesity is something we haven't seen with other viral infections. With other lung injuries, obese people often do better rather than worse," said Prof Sir Stephen O'Rahilly, from the University of Cambridge.
"It looks pretty specific [to Covid] it probably happens in pandemic flu, but not regular flu."
Fat deposited throughout the body, in organs like the liver, causes a metabolic disturbance which seems to combine badly with coronavirus.
Obese patients are more likely to have higher levels of inflammation in the body and proteins that can lead to clotting.
