Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

[Max68]

I think the point is that people need to be in close contact with each other for some time rather than just casually passing someone in a supermarket (no spikes in supermarket workers apparently) or at a bar which is practising the table service, social distancing stuff

I think that's right. Personally I think one of the major risks for infection and severity of disease with this virus is viral load. As you say as a supermarket worker how long are you in the same space as an infected customer? That's why I'm concerned because of the nature of my school. When it rained the other day I couldn't be two metres away from anyone no matter where you stood.

Indeed that's what the Covid score calculator above doesn't take into account, vocation. Surely vulnerable NHS workers, school staff, bus drivers, driving instructors are at a higher risk than maybe road workers,
post persons, traffic wardens and the like due to indoor, enclosed environments with the same people in close vicinity.

 

[KK123]

Well I'm beginning to wonder who to believe/trust!

Few weeks ago I spoke to a GP. Not my GP as that doesn't seem to exist anymore, just a random GP that they can fit you in with a quick phone call!

She said that I should be working at home because my Covid age was 67 and therefore I was higher risk but GP's hands were tied, blah blah, the usual stuff. So I said I was having the Individual Risk Assessment at work, (which has already happened) and could she write a letter outlining the risk as my Head seemed unaware of risk re diabetes. She said she would for £25 at it is a private letter. Fine!

After chasing it up it has arrived albeit too late for it to be of any use. The contents baffled me.

"Mr ..... is registered at ............ Surgery. He is receiving medication for type 2 diabetes. Using the Covid 19 medical risk assessment, I have calculated his Covid age, which helps us assess an individual's vulnerability to Covid19., Using this, his Covid age is 67. This puts him at a moderate vulnerability level. People in this category are less likely to develop severe disease if infection occurs."

So since her phone call I have gone from higher risk to moderate risk?! I've also done one online and indeed it does come out at 67 with her information (moderate risk, albeit higher range of, only if you leave the Hypertension off, of which she seems to have done! With Hypertension with medication it comes out at 74. Age 52 + 15 (type 2 and other HbA1c <= 58 mmol/mol in past year) + 7 (Hypertension. Covid age of 74 comes out at "High risk of becoming hospitalised and seriously ill if infection occurs."

And that cost me £25!!!!!

That's the problem with these letters of risk from the average Doctor. They simply quote what's on the govt website. To me it's not just about the Covid score (if you worked in an airy office in a controlled environment then you probably WOULD be a 'moderate risk' relative to a very high risk shielded person) but you don't, you work in a higher risk environment as do I and the Dr's letter will NOT take that into account so your work is supposed to. I fully realise it must be hard for Drs/Employers to determine exactly what risk a person is at but none of them seem willing to take responsibility for coming up with a common sense decision. x

 

[JRT]

I feel the same Max. As I read your first message my first thought was about the difference the environment made. Maybe your Head is supposed to add that risk on to his and you come out high? Either way unsatisfactory.
It would be interesting to hear if anyone else had similar issues with GPs. I know I have.
Their hands are tied. Who by? Why? What is the rationalisation behind these decisions.? What happens if they go against it?
It's very easy to feel paranoid or as if i have maybe misinterpreted information.
I do wonder if it is related to the governments push to get people back to work and discourage people working from home. They didnt have much luck with it and did have a bit of a u turn recently when infections started to rise.
Despite concerns about long Covid Sunak tells us to live with the virus to not to fear it.
Independent Sage have said there are I think it 20million people,may have been 30 who are especially vulnerable to this virus. If all those people were protected by some form of shielding things would get very tricky in frontline services.
Who and what to believe?
When those employed by civil service and local government return to work in packed offices via public transport and when GPs resume normal service I will believe the risk is reasonable.
Until then it seems a genuine case of do as i say not what i do.

 

[Max68]

Totally agree with you both. Half the problem is that the "family GP" is long gone. I used to visit the same guy, year in year out, and he knew me inside and out (not literally!!) An unbelievably empathic guy who just knew what to be worried about and what not to be. I'd visit him about something, we would then chat about football for 5 minutes, then he would take my blood pressure on an old style mercury meter., It was fine in those days and off I would go. Now your late because you can't find a parking space, run like leather into the waiting room, get called and before your backside hits the chair they have stuck the electric monitor on your arm and ply you with pills because it's 155/90!!

These days a lot of them are young, haven't got the time to get to know a patient due to over work and are fixated by tables and stats rather than the individuality of their patients.

 

[Jbicheno]

I had a telephone consultation with a Doctor at my GP surgery today. It was for anxiety caused by my working conditions in a primary school and especially a year 6 classroom (30 children 2 adults no social distancing or PPE). I was advised to speak to my GP by 111.
The help offered ranged from drugs for the anxiety, remote counselling, resign or get another job.
He also advised me that as a 59 year old Type 2 diabetic (diet and exercise controlled) I am at no greater risk of severe illness if I catch the virus than any healthy person. Don’t know why we are all so worried (not).
I terminated the call as he was stressing me out even more.

 

[ert]

I had a telephone consultation with a Doctor at my GP surgery today. It was for anxiety caused by my working conditions in a primary school and especially a year 6 classroom (30 children 2 adults no social distancing or PPE). I was advised to speak to my GP by 111.
The help offered ranged from drugs for the anxiety, remote counselling, resign or get another job.
He also advised me that as a 59 year old Type 2 diabetic (diet and exercise controlled) I am at no greater risk of severe illness if I catch the virus than any healthy person. Don’t know why we are all so worried (not).
I terminated the call as he was stressing me out even more.

Yet the GP was unprepared to see you in person. That says a lot about how safe it really is.

 

[JRT]

I had a telephone consultation with a Doctor at my GP surgery today. It was for anxiety caused by my working conditions in a primary school and especially a year 6 classroom (30 children 2 adults no social distancing or PPE). I was advised to speak to my GP by 111.
The help offered ranged from drugs for the anxiety, remote counselling, resign or get another job.
He also advised me that as a 59 year old Type 2 diabetic (diet and exercise controlled) I am at no greater risk of severe illness if I catch the virus than any healthy person. Don’t know why we are all so worried (not).
I terminated the call as he was stressing me out even more.

Wow. I'm sorry that that's the response you got when you asked for support. Medication,counselling etc wont change situation.

 

[Jbicheno]

Thank you for your support. It means a lot. Sometimes you wonder if it’s just you who sees the risk.

 

[Mr_Pot]

The Covid age is a measure of the severity if you catch the virus not how likely you are to catch it, so it is not changed by your occupation or environment.

 

[JRT]

Thank you for your support. It means a lot. Sometimes you wonder if it’s just you who sees the risk.

There have been occasions over the past 6 months when I have seriously doubted my own judgement.
Sometimes it's a case of just stepping back and looking around.
Even those who are minimally affected by the virus are restricted in whom with and under what circumstances they can socialise. Use of public transport is still not encouraged. Parliament is still socially distancing. I doubt they are doing it to be role models! They dont want this virus to spread.
Rules change when it suits the needs of the economy. Care provided by grandparents is a good example. Of course not all grandparents are in a vulnerable group. As for those that are I havent come across any information that either the virus is less infectious if it's in a beloved grandchild or that on the occasions you are with grandchildren your immune system is boosted.
From the outset diabetes has thought to be problematical. Maybe more so now its thought not to be a respiratory problem more a virus that attacks the immune system.
Why does it feel as though we have been thrown to the wolves?
I dont know what the rationale is. Maybe we will get to November and deaths,particularly of vulnerable groups wont have risen. Theres still,I feel, an implication deaths are mainly the elderly. I would love to know what's happening to those who were previously shielded. Are they back in the workforce? Are they still informally shielding?
My concern is that I've never wanted to be part of a group for whom the epitaph is lessons will be learned. Hundreds of frontline workers died in the first wave. Education was under represented as schools weren't running on full capacity.
I suppose it also depends on how much faith you have in the government to protect your wellbeing. Their track record in how they support the long term sick and disabled says it all. Today Universal Credit has been stated as breaching human rights, not that that will be a problem for long!
No one can say definitively how this virus will affect an individual, there are too many individual risk factors,maybe some we are not aware of.
I have never been a gambler and I dont intend to start now.

 

[NicoleC1971]

I think that's right. Personally I think one of the major risks for infection and severity of disease with this virus is viral load. As you say as a supermarket worker how long are you in the same space as an infected customer? That's why I'm concerned because of the nature of my school. When it rained the other day I couldn't be two metres away from anyone no matter where you stood.

Indeed that's what the Covid score calculator above doesn't take into account, vocation. Surely vulnerable NHS workers, school staff, bus drivers, driving instructors are at a higher risk than maybe road workers,
post persons, traffic wardens and the like due to indoor, enclosed environments with the same people in close vicinity.

Except if we look at countries, or even this country pre lockdown, those of working age other than female nurses and transport workers* have not reportedly caught more infection even if their cases got reported anecdotally quite a lot. *It is also quite hard to unpick who is more at risk by the jobs they do from their socio economic background e.g. being more likely to suffer from ill health if you're poorly paid or live in crowded conditions and are of black/Asian ethnicity.
There were control countries like Sweden or certain US states and it is perhaps reassuring to see that despite having the under 16s at school throughout the pandemic this doesn't seem to have impacted those diabetics amongst their teachers any more than our locked down teachers here who taught in London throughout January, February and most of March.

 

[Max68]

The Covid age is a measure of the severity if you catch the virus not how likely you are to catch it, so it is not changed by your occupation or environment.

True, however it can be argued that vocation or environment can dictate levels of viral load if you do contract it. Considering viral load can be linked to severity of disease there is an argument that occupation and environment could be included.

 

[ert]

There were control countries like Sweden or certain US states and it is perhaps reassuring to see that despite having the under 16s at school throughout the pandemic this doesn't seem to have impacted those diabetics amongst their teachers any more than our locked down teachers here who taught in London throughout January, February and most of March.

You need to include a reference.
What about the 65 teachers or ta's or school workers who died before lockdown?
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/ons-figures-reveal-65-covid-related-deaths-in-education/
I imagine the percentage of diabetics who died are reflected here in any pre-existing conditions.

 

[KK123]

The Covid age is a measure of the severity if you catch the virus not how likely you are to catch it, so it is not changed by your occupation or environment.

It's not changed in that respect but the purpose of assessing vulnerability around catching it is to avoid catching it if you are at higher risk so your occupation does matter. I think the concept is IF you are vulnerable to more severe consequences then you should do more than a non vulnerable person to avoid it and that is where surroundings & occupations come into it, otherwise what would be the point of categorising at all?

 

[KK123]

I had a telephone consultation with a Doctor at my GP surgery today. It was for anxiety caused by my working conditions in a primary school and especially a year 6 classroom (30 children 2 adults no social distancing or PPE). I was advised to speak to my GP by 111.
The help offered ranged from drugs for the anxiety, remote counselling, resign or get another job.
He also advised me that as a 59 year old Type 2 diabetic (diet and exercise controlled) I am at no greater risk of severe illness if I catch the virus than any healthy person. Don’t know why we are all so worried (not).
I terminated the call as he was stressing me out even more.

So this Dr of yours thinks the complete opposite of the govt and its advisors then? They say that you as a diabetic come into the 'clinically vulnerable group' and there is advice galore from them on this point. I would get your Dr to put that you are at no greater risk by being diabetic, in writing by emailing you but I bet he won't. x

 

[Max68]

So this Dr of yours thinks the complete opposite of the govt and its advisors then? They say that you as a diabetic come into the 'clinically vulnerable group' and there is advice galore from them on this point. I would get your Dr to put that you are at no greater risk by being diabetic, in writing by emailing you but I bet he won't. x

Interestingly I spoke to the DWP again earlier and their government guidelines apparently stated that all diabetics were on the shielding list!!

 

[Mr_Pot]

It's not changed in that respect but the purpose of assessing vulnerability around catching it is to avoid catching it if you are at higher risk so your occupation does matter. I think the concept is IF you are vulnerable to more severe consequences then you should do more than a non vulnerable person to avoid it and that is where surroundings & occupations come into it, otherwise what would be the point of categorising at all?

Exactly, but all your GP can do is access severity if you catch it. It would be an impossible task to access the risk of catching it in all the different occupations and circumstances and somehow rate them, especially as nobody knows for sure. Is say a bus driver more at risk than someone working at a supermarket checkout and by how much? What if the bus driver is in an enclosed cab or alternatively drives a school bus. Everyone's situation will be different, certainly GPs can't assess it.

 

[JRT]

Interestingly I spoke to the DWP again earlier and their government guidelines apparently stated that all diabetics were on the shielding list!!

I've heard it all now. !

 

[KK123]

Exactly, but all your GP can do is access severity if you catch it. It would be an impossible task to access the risk of catching it in all the different occupations and circumstances and somehow rate them, especially as nobody knows for sure. Is say a bus driver more at risk than someone working at a supermarket checkout and by how much? What if the bus driver is in an enclosed cab or alternatively drives a school bus. Everyone's situation will be different, certainly GPs can't assess it.

Yes I agree, in a previous post my take was exactly that, that the medical vulnerability is assessed by medics. Employers should then take that into account when assessing any extra risk posed by that' person's occupation. Employers have to do that ordinarily anyway when an employee has a health issue in the workplace so it can't be such a massive ask as some of them seem to think it is.

 

[Jbicheno]

So this Dr of yours thinks the complete opposite of the govt and its advisors then? They say that you as a diabetic come into the 'clinically vulnerable group' and there is advice galore from them on this point. I would get your Dr to put that you are at no greater risk by being diabetic, in writing by emailing you but I bet he won't. x

An interesting idea. I may well ask for him to do that.