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COVID vaccination

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by notafanofsugar, Nov 14, 2020.

  1. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    You are quoting the UK Gov estimate which varies between 0,5% to 1% of dying but no estimate for any suffering from long term disability, The WHO figures currently show a 5% death rate from Covid, which is above the world average of 4%. I do not trust the UK Gov in this, Most people use the Johns Hopkins databases, but not those in Trumpland or Borisland it seems,

    Not sure where you are intending to take your immune system, but I hope it will be far away from me. Assumes too that Covid will not decide for you beforehand which is a reality we all live with at the moment,
     
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  2. Jaylee

    Jaylee Type 1 · Moderator
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    Hi,

    Got any links regarding the vaccinated contracting Covid 19?
    To be fair, i'm just a little surprised, as they only just rolled this vaccine out..?
     
  3. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    I think what you are describing is efficacy. For the Pfizer vax, it means that of 100 people vaccinated, 5 or so stand to not be immunized from the getgo. The real worm in the apple is that indeed we do not know yet how long the immunity lasts, and yes, that will take years of in vivo trial which we started this morning.

    Looking at the Smallpox disease, we have had a vaccine since the 40's but it was only recently that smallpox was considered as eliminated; but since then there have been sporadic outbreaks. Same with Polio,

    The only certainties in Life are Death and Taxes, You will be waiting a long time for something that is 100%
     
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  4. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    This approach is held by many as being the get out if jail unharmed card for Covid-19, but it is a very wasteful process, and will totally swamp our health facilities very quickly.

    This is what Dr Van Tang says and I warn you it is biassed toward the vaccine,
    https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/...lockdown-policies-and-for-focused-protection/

    The use of the vaccine will eventually lead to the same place, but using fewer resources and causing less harm being suffered. That is important, It is unlikely that there will be any significant adverse vaccine reaction in the general population that would cause anything like the same or more harm than natural selection aka Herd Immunity or Focused Protection,
     
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    #244 Oldvatr, Dec 8, 2020 at 2:07 PM
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  5. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    It's kind of here
    https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...d-biontech-announce-vaccine-candidate-against

    " The case split between vaccinated individuals and those who received the placebo indicates a vaccine efficacy rate above 90%, at 7 days after the second dose. This means that protection is achieved 28 days after the initiation of the vaccination, which consists of a 2-dose schedule. As the study continues, the final vaccine efficacy percentage may vary. "

    i.e. some people who were vaccinated still tested positive for COVID.. hence the 90% efficiency rather than 100%
    I think I have read elsewhere that out of the 94 cases something like 8 or 9 were in the vaccinated group the rest in the placebo arm.

    Edit to add. until the trial research is actually reported all we have to go on are the press releases.
     
  6. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Will this do instead?
    https://www.pfizer.co.uk/pfizer-and...didate-meeting-all-primary-efficacy-endpoints

    Or is it from a biased source?
     
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  7. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Well Pfizer is hardly likely to be unbiased where their own vaccine is concerned but even they say

    " of which 162 cases of COVID-19 were observed in the placebo group versus 8 cases in the BNT162b2 group"

    so not 100% effective.. just as I said it doesn't stop you getting COVID.
     
  8. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Exactly. 95% efficacy = 95 in 100 will be protected, but 5 may catch it. No one is claiming 100%, and to do so is wishful thinking and fairy dust. You wait if you like, but the rest of the world will move on around you, - and they may not be wearing masks.
    I do not share your optimism. Having played cards with the Grim Reaper a few times now, I am not going to risk it. For the sake of a couple of jabs and a possible bit of temporary discomfort then I will risk the possibility of longer-term problems since (a) of 44,000 samples, no severe reactions noted, and they are still being monitored because Stage 3 does not stop with the application for a licence. and (b) Living long enough to get the problems seems a good idea especially since there probably won't be any,
    As has been pointed out many times now, vaccines are not the same as drugs and operate briefly to train our own immune system to reject the virus.
     
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  9. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    As I said it does not prevent catching it and as over 99% recover completely then I'd rather take the risk of COVID thanks.
    Someone with decent metabolic health and no co-morbidities has virtually nothing to fear.

    Excellent.. as we know masks do little to nothing anyway so...

    Maybe at your age you are happy to take the risk with long term vaccine problems, for me with hopefully 20 or so years of extra life left I'd rather not thanks. Vaccines (like drugs) are not risk free why take an unnecessary risk?
     
  10. hankjam

    hankjam Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    I was cruising along quite nicely with my T2 when a result came back telling me I had prostrate cancer... for sometime...
     
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  11. Jo_the_boat

    Jo_the_boat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I am not anti-vaccine. I would love to see the country get back to 'normal'. I've said it before but I believe the vaccine is probably not dangerous, at least in the short term, but I still think it's been rushed. As it stands now I will not be taking it. But last time we discussed it, my wife will!
    I'll also reiterate my thought that when debate is squashed by the establishment we need to be REALLY careful.

    Moving on....
    Here is a piece from the BBC today.
    Among other things it appears to answer Dr Julian Tang's (if that's who you're referring to) point about how to protect the vulnerable.
    I've said before that we can all pick articles, items of research etc. etc. to support our views. My problem is I think the go-ahead for the vaccine is a massive political / economic exercise.
    I heard an interview the other day. I can't remember who it was, but he said this:
    "If 75% of people take the vaccine and the vaccine is 75% effective 1 in 2 people will be helped.
    That means that one in two will get less severe symptoms than if they hadn’t had the vaccine. It is NOT the case that one in two will be prevented from getting Covid 19, but that they will have less severe symptoms.
    The other person won’t be helped at all.
    Is either person capable of transmitting the virus even though they have had a vaccine? Unknown.
    The WHO have said we have to carry on as we have been because we don’t know who is protected, to what degree they are protected or whether they can pass it on."

    Now perhaps the vaccine may be more than 75% effective, but conversely maybe less than 75% will have it, but the figures indicate that a vaccine is not the be all and end all.
    The upshot is perhaps that we MAY protect some of the vulnerable (and their carers and their visitors and the NHS staff). In that respect it's a shot in our national arm, but a return to 'normal' by spring seems unlikely.
     
  12. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    https://fullfact.org/health/Covid-recovery-vaccine/
    Where do you get your 99.9% recovery rate figure from? The NHS website has N/A against every daily summary that they issued this month so it is not from them. Please provide your source as without a credible source your argument diminishes in importance. Also which vaccines are you citing as being harmful MMR? or a.n other. Some vaccines use a porcine base and can give shock in some people and many use egg protein for propagation which again can cause shock, but these are known about and steps are in place to ensure safe use. The Pfizer vaccine declares it is animal product free.

    If it is the RNA that is a problem then every time you eat protein your cells get assaulted by foreign MRA from the Amino Acids (AA) in the lipids (LDL) and we learn to use them by building our own protein according to the code in the RNA. It is a normal biological process. In the case of Covid, then it too gets into the cells and produces proteins that are initially accepted by our immune system until we learn that it is not a helpful protein and alert the immune system with antibodies, What the vaccine does is take the coronavirus MRA and add a marker (U marker) that immediately calls in the fire brigade to eject the interloper. Our T Cells then remember the MRA and react to block it from going further. It uses our own defence mechanism and is not a chemical reaction at all.
     
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    #252 Oldvatr, Dec 8, 2020 at 4:45 PM
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  13. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Yes, I have corrected my post - it was Van Tang.
    I agree that the vaccine is not the total solution and we will be with the virus for many years, It is only a tool we can use, Its a bit like claiming remission from diabetes, Some T2D get close to it, but for how long? In my case it lasted about a month, but T1D are still waiting for a solution, The LCHF diet is a youngster, so again what long term implications may there be lurking in the future.
     
  14. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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  15. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Please don't misrepresent what I said.. 99% and 99.9% are different things.

    So far in the under 60 no co-morbidity cohort there have been 367 deaths allegedly "from" COVID in the NHS England figures

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    Getting data from cases from here

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=nation&areaName=England

    We find that there have been a total of 1,177,885 cases in the under 60's in England so far

    With 367 deaths that means that 99.97% have recovered. However I didn't claim that.

    Edit to add even including those with co-morbidities we get 0.276% have died thus 99.7 have recovered.
     
  16. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    I see they have already made payouts in 2021, which is a bit disconcerting. How many of these vaccines were thrown out and discontinued? How many still continue in use? I know that the egg allergy problem was significant. There isn't enough detail in this report to be of use except to a lawyer or accountant.

    This is USA who are very litigious, and I wonder how many were safety issues, Do you have access to a similar one in the UK, which more relevant to the Pfizer
     
  17. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Sorry, you did say 99.7% I shall have to be more exact, It certainly is not the 99.9% I misquoted you on.

    The figures I was using were for the complete UK Covid saga, not s subset of it, Which today works out at 3.5547% I find the figure for the under 60's to be very low indeed which is probably why the step-down protection plan stops at 60. So you're missing already even if you want it, Apparently, you consider yourself as having no co-morbidities, Well done, but the majority of people reading this forum are probably diabetic
    so are not in the same boat as you it would appear, I am trying to look at the overall picture.

    Seems someone else has already looked at this
    https://fullfact.org/health/its-not...ovid-19-if-youre-under-60-no-health-problems/
     
    #257 Oldvatr, Dec 8, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  18. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    You seem to quote them quite a lot.. have you investigated who funds them?
     
  19. hankjam

    hankjam Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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  20. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    https://fullfact.org/about/funding/
    They have received funding from George Soros for the development of some software tools they developed, and they have worked with Facebook as an automated fact-checker monitor, The Wail has them tied into Google but I could not find any evidence of this. One of the Founders was a donor to the Conservative Party, and one was a director of Satchi & Satchi. They have been investigated recently by the Wail, but no hard evidence followed,

    I have no ties to them, but they show up when I ask Google to find info on covid 'facts'. I do not consider them to be a prime source at all, but it is interesting how they get into searching questions similar to the ones I am finding it necessary to make in light of smoke and mirrors.

    It is announced today that the Astra Zenica vaccine has passed its peer review, and should get the Getgo later this week. Moderna should hear on Thursday coming. The AZ data is published in The Lancet today
     
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