COVID vaccination

Oldvatr · Dec 10, 2020

bulkbiker said:
Ah so it's only the Oxford trial that is using the meningitis vaccine as "placebo" right.

Edit to add
none of the "anti-vaxxer" sources that I have seen had mentioned this woman whatsoever.

Eh? Where did you get this data from.? I have no interest in reading anti-vaxxers postings, thank you. It does not make sense.

Found it
"Participants were randomly assigned (1:1) to receive either the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine or the MenACWY vaccine. MenACWY was used as a comparator vaccine to maintain blinding of participants who experienced local or systemic reactions, since these reactions are a known association with viral vector vaccinations. Use of saline as a placebo would risk unblinding participants as those who had notable reactions would know they were in the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine group.!

parentjoe · Dec 10, 2020

notafanofsugar said:
I have had a delightful conversation with my friends this evening about the COVID vaccination. It was interesting to see everyone’s perspective. We were split in the middle between taking it immediately and not taking it at all.

This is a forum for people in one of the highest risk groups for coronavirus fatality, I find it staggering that this conversation is even taking place. Even the most rudimentary research will tell you that there are no ‘long term effects’, there can’t be, it’s a modified cold virus suspended in a soup of sugars. The only thing that will remain in your body after a couple of days are the antibodies that you produce yourself.
I naturally tend to be sympathetic to other peoples views (even if I strongly disagree) but in this case the harm that these crazy theories can do to the people on this site is real and tangible. By not taking this vaccine you are putting others at risk.
Just take the ******* vaccine !!!!

(mod edit for language)

Oldvatr · Dec 10, 2020

StamfordMan said:
Why is that so surprising? Is it because the official scientists have been claiming that no one has natural immunity to Coronaviruses and that therefore, a vaccine is the only route to herd immunity? There are other Scientists besides Whitty, Vallance and Fauci, and a very large number of them support the view that prior exposure to other Coronaviruses produces an immune reaction to the novel Coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. What also indicates that there's already widespread immunity in the UK population is the fact that a graph of the "excess deaths" for the 2019/2020 'flu season shows the exact same pattern as any seasonal 'flu. The initial exponential rise in deaths occurred, as it always does, because the virus was ripping through the vulnerable population. When most of the vulnerable people have been infected, the deaths peak and start to decline, more slowly than the initial rise, because there's still a pool of vulnerable people who get infected after the peak, but it inevitably declines back to baseline by the beginning of Summer. That graph is known as a Gompertz curve. That the graph of "excess deaths" for 2019/2020 is no different from that of any seasonal flu is a clear indication that the pandemic has been greatly overstated, and that pre-existing immunity to the virus has been greatly understated.

We are now in the situation that the restrictions are creating greater harm than the virus and should be lifted unconditionally. What risk is there to healthy people who have no symptoms at all from a virus that you have to have a test for in order to find out that you're "sick"? Absent of the test, you'd have no idea that you're "infected" and you'd just carry on with your life, go to work and you'd be perfectly safe and happy. But get tested, and you're told that you must self-isolate and therefore, if you're unable to continue working at home, you're unable to earn an income. There is currently a group of people the size of the population of Wales who are under restrictions because of either a positive test or because they were in close proximity to someone who tested positive. The vast majority of those people have no symptoms at all, and the World Health Organisation's advice is that asymptomatic people only very rarely are capable of spreading a disease. We are effectively telling 3 million healthy people that they may not earn a living based on a total myth, the myth of the asymptomatic spreader.

The logical thing to do would be to stop testing anyone who has no symptoms and concentrate on doing the tests on people who do have symptoms with greater care and accuracy. The rush to test as many people as possible has led to shoddy practices that can easily cross-contaminate samples and short cuts when it comes to carefully calibrating the testing equipment between runs. The fact that the Lateral Flow rapid testing method used in Liverpool found that vastly fewer people were "positive" than the so-called "Gold Standard" Drosden PCR method had found is a clear indication that there are serious problems with the PCR testing in the UK. We're destroying people's businesses, jobs and creating mental health issues for an entire generation of children based on nothing more than the say-so of Whitty and Vallance and the results of shoddy, flawed testing. It's more than time to reevaluate the whole approach to this novel Coronavirus in the UK.

I take it you have not yet experienced personal loss in your circle of friends and family. I assume you are aware that another member of the coronavirus family is the common cold, and I doubt that it is giving anyone immunity.

bulkbiker · Dec 10, 2020

parentjoe said:
there are no ‘long term effects’, there can’t be, i

Indeed as the vaccine was non existent 9 months ago.. are you claiming that any long term results are now clear?

We have already had reports of 2 anaphylactic responses from those who have had the vaccine.. that's a pretty short term effect.. we have no idea what the long term effect will be do we?

Bergkamp777 · Dec 10, 2020

ian4468 said:
If there's a Covid Vaccine. I am more than willing to try.
I also would like to try the influenza vaccine, but as ( in my area anyway) the administration of the vaccine, has been a complete and utter shambles, and whoever is in charge should be sacked, for neglect and incompetence.
They are putting lives at stake. And you can bet their families will already have it done. Shameful.

You are entitled to a free flu vaccine and your GP should be offering it to you, ring the surgery and ask them..

Oldvatr · Dec 10, 2020

bulkbiker said:
Indeed as the vaccine was non existent 9 months ago.. are you claiming that any long term results are now clear?

We have already had reports of 2 anaphylactic responses from those who have had the vaccine.. that's a pretty short term effect.. we have no idea what the long term effect will be do we?

Corollary - The virus was nonexistent 10 months ago, We KNOW that Covid is inducing long term problems in seemingly otherwise fit young people, so I am surprised you are so hellbent on not wanting to protect yourself and your friends and family from it. As I posted earlier, there have been many recent vaccine releases where the only long term effect is antibodies, and that only one has been withdrawn for possible harmful side effects.

Bergkamp777 · Dec 10, 2020

spendercat said:
A lot of people feel like that, including my sister, who is 60, diabetic, obese and asthmatic (just like me ,and younger to boot)and she is a vey senior nurse.
On the balance of risks however she will definitely have the vaccination.
I too will have it, I have had, and my children have had, every single vaccination the NHS recommended to me, without any consequences save immunity.

I absolutely agree with you it's the only way we will beat this pandemic.

bulkbiker · Dec 10, 2020

Oldvatr said:
The virus was nonexistent 10 months ago,

Was it? There appears to be significant evidence it was about well before that.

Oldvatr said:
We KNOW that Covid is inducing long term problems in seemingly otherwise fit young people

But in how many? And were they indeed "fit young people" ?

Oldvatr said:
I am surprised you are so hellbent on not wanting to protect yourself and your friends and family from it.

I can assure you I'm not alone in being concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I'd rather rely on my own metabolic health thanks. It has served me pretty well so far.

Oldvatr · Dec 10, 2020

bulkbiker said:
Was it? There appears to be significant evidence it was about well before that.

But in how many? And were they indeed "fit young people" ?

I can assure you I'm not alone in being concerned about the safety of the vaccine. I'd rather rely on my own metabolic health thanks. It has served me pretty well so far.

Point 1 - irrelevant. The time period in the post I responded to was your comment regarding 9 months for long term problems to be detected in the vaccine, my point is that in 10 months since discovery we have registered accounts of harm and death being caused in people who would not be classed as 'vulnerable'

point 2 = there are more instances than I have fingers to count them. It is not my job to keep these records, but I trust the overall system that does, Sadly there is evidence of long term harm continuing in survivors beyond the immediate recovery period. The thought of lung scarring and blood clots is not a pleasant one. These are detectable and are proven to happen in Covid patients who survive, not just in post mortem reports,

Point 3: Your choice and your opinion. Just keep well away from me just in case you are a secret carrier. I hope you never become a super spreader. But it's your opinion of the risk factor you face. You talk of expecting to live another 20 or 30 years from now and I wish you well.

bulkbiker · Dec 10, 2020

Oldvatr said:
registered accounts of harm and death being caused in people who would not be classed as 'vulnerable'

As we do with every single disease that effects humans.. people die of all sorts of things at anytime in their lives.. we just don't have it shoved down our throats constantly

Oldvatr said:
there are more instances than I have fingers to count them

So more than 8 then.. and post viral syndrome effects how many exactly?
See you have no idea of that either.. again COVID has been trumpeted from the rooftops yet never in any context.

Oldvatr said:
You talk of expecting to live another 20 or 30 years from now and I wish you well.

I'll live until I either die naturally or at a time of my choosing whichever comes first.
Thanks for the kind wishes.

Time to withdraw from this thread I feel..

Martinjd · Dec 10, 2020

fbirder said:
In the past a new vaccine would have required isolating the virus then finding a way to kill it or weaken it, so that it could still provoke an immune response while not infecting anybody (well, not too many). That could take many years.

The RNA sequence of SARS-CoV-2 was emailed around the world by Chinese scientists in January 2020. Three hours later one scientist had already determined a potential vaccine candidate. That cut three years off the development time.

In the past vaccine development would have gone along these lines -

Find a candidate.

Beg for funding for animal testing.

Perform the studies.

Write up and publish results.

Beg for funding for small scale safety testing in humans.

Find the volunteers.

Perform the study.

Write up and publish the results.

Repeat steps 5 to 8 for Phase II (safety/efficacy tests in hundreds of humans)

Repeat steps 5 to 8 for Phase III (safety/efficacy tests in tens of thousands of humans).

Send all the results to the regulatory agencies

Wait for approval

Find somebody to make millions of doses.

Woo-Hoo. We’ve got a vaccine.

Note that all those ‘beg for funding’ steps take a long time - and that time gets longer for each successive phase.

But vaccines for covid-19 have thrown that playbook out of the window.

The first three steps for animal studies would have been roughly the same. It’s after than things got different. There was no real begging for funding. Money was coming in from governments and big pharma. So they didn’t have to wait to start human trials. And they didn’t have to run them sequentially.

Once they they were sure, from Phase I, that it wasn’t going to kill volunteers they could start on Phase II and Phase III. Phase II started first while they tried to get enough volunteers for the efficacy testing. Phase III started before Phase II was complete.

And they’re not having to send all the data to the regulatory agencies in one batch. The MHRA have been looking at the data from the AstraZeneca/Oxford as it’s been released. So they should be ready to make a decision within a week or two after the final data.

And AZ have already said that they can make 4 million doses for the UK before the end of the year, and a billion doses next year.

So that’s how we get a vaccine in less than a year. We don’t cut back on the safety testing, we cut back on the begging for funding and the red tape.

bulkbiker said:
As we do with every single disease that effects humans.. people die of all sorts of things at anytime in their lives.. we just don't have it shoved down our throats constantly

So more than 8 then.. and post viral syndrome effects how many exactly?
See you have no idea of that either.. again COVID has been trumpeted from the rooftops yet never in any context.

I'll live until I either die naturally or at a time of my choosing whichever comes first.
Thanks for the kind wishes.

Time to withdraw from this thread I feel..

Probably a good idea do everyone a favour if you can’t be constructive, it’s very easy to disagree with everything especially as you seem to feel everyone else’s views are irrelevant, you have a huge weight on your shoulders being such an expert in everything.

Oldvatr · Dec 10, 2020

bulkbiker said:
As we do with every single disease that effects humans.. people die of all sorts of things at anytime in their lives.. we just don't have it shoved down our throats constantly

So more than 8 then.. and post viral syndrome effects how many exactly?
See you have no idea of that either.. again COVID has been trumpeted from the rooftops yet never in any context.

I'll live until I either die naturally or at a time of my choosing whichever comes first.
Thanks for the kind wishes.

Time to withdraw from this thread I feel..

WHO data
https://www.who.int/docs/default-so...people with COVID,have lasting health effects.

A few more than 8.

Oldvatr · Dec 10, 2020

I am assuming that this is not something you would ascribe to
!Dulcē et decōrum est prō patriā mōrī[!
You are welcome to correct me on this, but I will not hold my breath.

bulkbiker · Dec 10, 2020

Martinjd said:
Probably a good idea do everyone a favour if you can’t be constructive

Useful..

hankjam · Dec 10, 2020

Sam1976 said:
1. Recombitant DNA
2. chAdOx1
Take a look and let the forum know your thoughts.

It probably wouldn't be an effective vaccine if these components were missing.....

JohnEGreen · Dec 10, 2020

One thing I have been trying to find is the answer to is the question is the covid 19 vaccine a live vaccine or not.

This is of particular interest to those who are on biologics such as abatacept (Orencia), adalimumab (Humira), anakinra (Kineret), certolizumab pegol (Cimzia), etanercept (Enbrel), golimumab (Simponi), infliximab (Inflectra, Remicade), rituximab (Rituxan), tocilizumab (Actemra), tofacitinib (Xeljanz), and upadacitinib (Rinvoq).. as they cannot have live vaccines.

And technically Insulin is a biologic medication.

Oldvatr · Dec 10, 2020

hankjam said:
It probably wouldn't be an effective vaccine if these components were missing.....

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31604-4/fulltext
This is the basis of the Oxford Zennica vaccine.

The Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines use RNA, which is not recombinant DNA.

Vaccines used to be made from watered-down deactivated virus so they used the live threat as the source (aka smallpox or polio vaccines), These new vaccines use DNA from the common cold, I believe and for the second 2, only part of that DNA so that it has no ability to recombine or self propagate. It is a safer technique than the older types and actually uses our own bodies to manufacture protective proteins rather than use the injected virus proteins. This is what our bodies do naturally every minute of the day we are alive and breathing.

bobduff · Dec 10, 2020

notafanofsugar said:
I have had a delightful conversation with my friends this evening about the COVID vaccination. It was interesting to see everyone’s perspective. We were split in the middle between taking it immediately and not taking it at all.

Looks like the vaccine may cause infertility according to this government document so what else might it do?
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../Information_for_healthcare_professionals.pdf

hankjam · Dec 10, 2020

bobduff said:
Looks like the vaccine may cause infertility according to this government document so what else might it do?
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../Information_for_healthcare_professionals.pdf

Really not sure how you got there....
Top Page 6

FertilityIt is unknown whether COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2has an impact on fertility.

Oldvatr · Dec 10, 2020

bobduff said:
Looks like the vaccine may cause infertility according to this government document so what else might it do?
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../Information_for_healthcare_professionals.pdf

That is NOT what this document says, It merely says that there is no data specific to fertility. Pregnancy, the advice is to avoid getting pregnant within 2 months of the doses, and not to be administereed to those already pregnant or planning imminent pregnancy as a precaution. Again this is because it has not been demonstrated in the trials so far, These are sensible precautions that are necessary on first rollout of a new treatment, Nothing unusual here.

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