Dawn Phenomenon - question for you guys waking in the 5's

[CherryAA]

I seem to suffer quite a lot from the dawn thing,

First thing I start out around 7 , it rises to about 8 by start of breakfast and then goes up to say 10/ 11 at one hour, back to around 8 ish by 3 hours and stays at that kind of level till lunch. Lunch I get a much lower spike - up to around 9,s and by two hours after I'm down to the low 7 mid 6.s I then spend the rest of the day at hovering at the 6.5 mark with only a small spike at dinner often being back down into the 6's after as little as one hour after what is my biggest meal of the day.

The breakfast spike still happens even if breakfast was only2 carbs , and indeed with no food it still goes up. This pattern seems fairly consistent no matter when I actually eat the meals, though I am continually surprised about how little a big evening meal seems to spike me, whereas mornings feel fraught no matter what I do. .

I am intrigued to understand what happens if you don't suffer the dawn phenomenon, i.e morning readings in the 4- 5's - do you still experience lower afternoons and evenings anyway or does it get harder during the. day to keep to these low numbers?

 

[ickihun]

Everyone experiences the Dawn Phenomoneum, even none diabetics.
Fasting readings in 4s or 5s are normally due to low carb eating and/or sufferers using meds to reduce their bgs.
I use liver dump blocks. They are cheese or nuts or on rising a coffee with cream. The cream causes no bg rise but also blocks a liver dump.
If I remember I do a one about 9 or 10pm and a coffee and cream on rising. My only problem is my thyroid med should be on an empty stomach. This I'm forfeiting but avoiding metformin clashes. Its a fine line. But one I find worth the effort.
Give it a try?

 

[Maggie/Magpie]

I seem to suffer quite a lot from the dawn thing,

First thing I start out around 7 , it rises to about 8 by start of breakfast and then goes up to say 10/ 11 at one hour, back to around 8 ish by 3 hours and stays at that kind of level till lunch. Lunch I get a much lower spike - up to around 9,s and by two hours after I'm down to the low 7 mid 6.s I then spend the rest of the day at hovering at the 6.5 mark with only a small spike at dinner often being back down into the 6's after as little as one hour after what is my biggest meal of the day.

The breakfast spike still happens even if breakfast was only2 carbs , and indeed with no food it still goes up. This pattern seems fairly consistent no matter when I actually eat the meals, though I am continually surprised about how little a big evening meal seems to spike me, whereas mornings feel fraught no matter what I do. .

I am intrigued to understand what happens if you don't suffer the dawn phenomenon, i.e morning readings in the 4- 5's - do you still experience lower afternoons and evenings anyway or does it get harder during the. day to keep to these low numbers?

Hi,
I read up on the Dawn phenomonin a couple of weeks ago as I would have a BG reading around 5.5 at bed time and then my fasting reading in the morning would be considerably more when I got up. For an average person the blood sugar reading would be lower in the morning than at night. Have a read about it on the site. I've not heard of it causing the subsequent reading through out the day being significantly higher through out the day as well. I would guess that the raise in BS levels through out the day to be more due to the amount of carbohydrates you are having at each meal time? Try reducing carbs at each meal and hopefully BS levels will regulate themselves more.
Good luck
Maggie/Magpie

 

[Mbaker]

At this stage in my diabetic life I have not I believe had an experience of the dawn phenomenon. This might be due to the amount of exercise I do, I am hooked. If I am mid 4's in the morning in the late afternoon I can be up to 5.8 or back in the 4's if I have trained, I know the combo of LC and exercise works for me.

 

[amber22]

I've noticed my morning numbers are much lower recently since I have greatly increased my exercise this past month.
Out for an an hour a day walking the dog to the parks. Walking about 30 minutes in all I think, sometimes brisk.
That is the one big difference and I put it down to that. Low carb diet + Metformin since December last year.
Before and 2 hours after meal readings have reduced too.
I am often not hungry in the mornings but I have a snack later on so I can take the Metformin. Very occasionally I do not eat then and skip that tablet.
Eggs, bacon, chicken liver, mushrooms and a few cherry tomatoes are my breakfast or lunch if I'm hungry. I stopped testing for this meal long ago as it does not spike.
Nuts and cheese are my snacks. I eat them before bedtime to help prevent high morning numbers.

 

[Mep]

I think the trick may be to go to bed on the right number. My endo has always advised me not to go to sleep on less than 8 mmol. I find when I stick to what he says I usually avoid hypos during the night and a high sugar reading in the morning. I find I get better numbers the next day too if I don't have anything else affecting me. He wants me to have a morning reading of 5--6. He doesn't like morning readings in the 4's which I was getting for a while. These days I get anywhere between 5-7. Sometimes I get the odd high number like the other day when I had a 10 in the morning which I don't remember ever having before. But I have a lot going on so I can't use myself as an example for you really. But I mentioned about the night number as I think that is the key to managing dawn phenomenon as well in diabetics.

 

[CherryAA]

Hi,
I read up on the Dawn phenomonin a couple of weeks ago as I would have a BG reading around 5.5 at bed time and then my fasting reading in the morning would be considerably more when I got up. For an average person the blood sugar reading would be lower in the morning than at night. Have a read about it on the site. I've not heard of it causing the subsequent reading through out the day being significantly higher through out the day as well. I would guess that the raise in BS levels through out the day to be more due to the amount of carbohydrates you are having at each meal time? Try reducing carbs at each meal and hopefully BS levels will regulate themselves more.
Good luck
Maggie/Magpie

well as I'm already down to 2 carbs at breakfast and 3 at lunch its hard to see how much lower is possible other than just moving to a fully paleo diet and event that had a few nuts and therefore carbs.

 

[CherryAA]

I think the trick may be to go to bed on the right number. My endo has always advised me not to go to sleep on less than 8 mmol. I find when I stick to what he says I usually avoid hypos during the night and a high sugar reading in the morning. I find I get better numbers the next day too if I don't have anything else affecting me. He wants me to have a morning reading of 5--6. He doesn't like morning readings in the 4's which I was getting for a while. These days I get anywhere between 5-7. Sometimes I get the odd high number like the other day when I had a 10 in the morning which I don't remember ever having before. But I have a lot going on so I can't use myself as an example for you really. But I mentioned about the night number as I think that is the key to managing dawn phenomenon as well in diabetics.

 

[Brunneria]

I find the same (usually start in the 6s and rise until the 8s) unless I eat something.

A protein only breakfast will drop my bg to normal levels for the day.
A fat breakfast (basically coffee and cream) will do the same.

I ended up going for the coffee/cream option and used it for months. Since I have given up coffee, I now use roasted chickory (Prewitts organic) and find it just as effective.

For me, ANY CARBS AT ALL before lunch causes disproportionate rises, because I seem to have raised insulin resistance until at least lunchtime, usually early afternoon. It may be just that activity through the day reduces the insulin resistance. Not sure. But whatever the cause, I just avoid morning carbs completely.

DP isn't just about food (if only it was that simple). For me, it is a lot to do with sleep, sleep deprivation, overall stress levels, stress levels that morning, insulin resistance, pain levels, etc. etc.

One of the best things I ever did was decide I wasn't going to let my DP rule my life. Now I just let it be what it wants to be, and get on with controlling my bg for the rest of the day - which has a slight knock on effect on my DP. Intermittent Fasting helps. so has reducing FODMAP foods. Its a pain, but hey ho. We just don't all get to play on a level playing field.

 

[CherryAA]

my going to bed numbr is consistently 6.5 and it prettmuch stays that way until morning. My morning number is ususally around 7 an then by the time I've made breakfast 8.3 - I;m upt oto around 11 half an hour after breakfast and it stays high for the next hour, though I can influence that a bit by a walk.

Everyone experiences the Dawn Phenomoneum, even none diabetics.
Fasting readings in 4s or 5s are normally due to low carb eating and/or sufferers using meds to reduce their bgs.
I use liver dump blocks. They are cheese or nuts or on rising a coffee with cream. The cream causes no bg rise but also blocks a liver dump.
If I remember I do a one about 9 or 10pm and a coffee and cream on rising. My only problem is my thyroid med should be on an empty stomach. This I'm forfeiting but avoiding metformin clashes. Its a fine line. But one I find worth the effort.
Give it a try?

I woke around 5 am this morning with a reading of 6,0 so I took you advice and had 20g of cheese then went back to bed. woke up at 7.00 am reading 7, and made breakfast by which time 8.3 - so no change there then , except I'm now 80 calories eaten before I was awake. So nope that doesn't seem to help. I don't drink coffee , so maybe I'll just try some straight cream next !

 

[CherryAA]

I find the same (usually start in the 6s and rise until the 8s) unless I eat something.

A protein only breakfast will drop my bg to normal levels for the day.
A fat breakfast (basically coffee and cream) will do the same.

I ended up going for the coffee/cream option and used it for months. Since I have given up coffee, I now use roasted chickory (Prewitts organic) and find it just as effective.

For me, ANY CARBS AT ALL before lunch causes disproportionate rises, because I seem to have raised insulin resistance until at least lunchtime, usually early afternoon. It may be just that activity through the day reduces the insulin resistance. Not sure. But whatever the cause, I just avoid morning carbs completely.

DP isn't just about food (if only it was that simple). For me, it is a lot to do with sleep, sleep deprivation, overall stress levels, stress levels that morning, insulin resistance, pain levels, etc. etc.

One of the best things I ever did was decide I wasn't going to let my DP rule my life. Now I just let it be what it wants to be, and get on with controlling my bg for the rest of the day - which has a slight knock on effect on my DP. Intermittent Fasting helps. so has reducing FODMAP foods. Its a pain, but hey ho. We just don't all get to play on a level playing field.

Thanks Brunneria, I have a feeling that I need to do the same, otherwise I am going to spend my entire life worrying about the time betwen e 8.00 and 2pm , its usually sorted by around then. I guess at the moment I am trying a few specific things as people suggest and if none of those make a difference then I will just have to suck it up and do what you do. What is a FODMAP food ?

 

[CherryAA]

I've noticed my morning numbers are much lower recently since I have greatly increased my exercise this past month.
Out for an an hour a day walking the dog to the parks. Walking about 30 minutes in all I think, sometimes brisk.
That is the one big difference and I put it down to that. Low carb diet + Metformin since December last year.
Before and 2 hours after meal readings have reduced too.
I am often not hungry in the mornings but I have a snack later on so I can take the Metformin. Very occasionally I do not eat then and skip that tablet.
Eggs, bacon, chicken liver, mushrooms and a few cherry tomatoes are my breakfast or lunch if I'm hungry. I stopped testing for this meal long ago as it does not spike.
Nuts and cheese are my snacks. I eat them before bedtime to help prevent high morning numbers.

Hi thanks for this, when do you exercise? before eating breakfast or after it ? I've been doing it after and that certainly helps bring down the spike , havent actually dragged myself straight out of bed and into the park yet, but maybe I need to ! (i've been doing about 10,000 steps per day - roughly 90 minutes every day since diagnosis to try to change the morning numbers

 

[Brunneria]

Have a google for FODMAP. Basically it is a list of foods to avoid if you have gluten sensitivity - since some non-gluten containing foods can trigger a similar reaction as gluten.

I've been avoiding gluten for years - because I don't eat carbs, but it is only recently that I have looked into it properly, and am now doing the strict exclusion diet for all the things like stock cubes, onions, vinegars and FODMAP veg as well as all the gluten containing grains. To my surprise, my blood glucose levels have dropped by about 0.5mmol/l across the board. I had no idea that what is for me an apparently mild food intolerance could possibly be driving up my bg so consistently.

But I need to do a lot more testing before I commit to uber-gluten-free for life.

 

[phila]

The Somogyi effect, also known as the “rebound” effect, was named after Michael Somogyi, the researcher who first described it. When blood glucose levels drop too low, the body sometimes reacts by releasing counterregulatory hormones such as glucagon and epinephrine. In a normal person insulin levels would rise to maintain the bodies normal levels. However people with diabetes cannot do this.



Edited by Mod.

 

[CherryAA]

I find the same (usually start in the 6s and rise until the 8s) unless I eat something.

A protein only breakfast will drop my bg to normal levels for the day.
A fat breakfast (basically coffee and cream) will do the same.

I ended up going for the coffee/cream option and used it for months. Since I have given up coffee, I now use roasted chickory (Prewitts organic) and find it just as effective.

For me, ANY CARBS AT ALL before lunch causes disproportionate rises, because I seem to have raised insulin resistance until at least lunchtime, usually early afternoon. It may be just that activity through the day reduces the insulin resistance. Not sure. But whatever the cause, I just avoid morning carbs completely.

DP isn't just about food (if only it was that simple). For me, it is a lot to do with sleep, sleep deprivation, overall stress levels, stress levels that morning, insulin resistance, pain levels, etc. etc.

One of the best things I ever did was decide I wasn't going to let my DP rule my life. Now I just let it be what it wants to be, and get on with controlling my bg for the rest of the day - which has a slight knock on effect on my DP. Intermittent Fasting helps. so has reducing FODMAP foods. Its a pain, but hey ho. We just don't all get to play on a level playing field.

what would you eat as a "protein only" breakfast ?

 

[Brunneria]

what would you eat as a "protein only" breakfast ?

Ham and cheese slices, or bacon, or egg, or both.
I would count sausages as containing carb, even if only 2-3% carb, it still used to affect me - whereas I can eat the same sausages later in the day with no effect on bg at all.

I've never been a great veg eater at breakfast, but I am going to try one of my current favourite dishes for weekend brunch today, just as an experiment - diced avocado, home made salsa, with an egg broken over, and baked. with a sprinkling of cheese on top to stop the egg going too chewy. I am hoping that the cheese and oil in the avo will block any carb rise from the avo and the toms. Will wait and see. lol.

 

[CherryAA]

Have a google for FODMAP. Basically it is a list of foods to avoid if you have gluten sensitivity - since some non-gluten containing foods can trigger a similar reaction as gluten.

I've been avoiding gluten for years - because I don't eat carbs, but it is only recently that I have looked into it properly, and am now doing the strict exclusion diet for all the things like stock cubes, onions, vinegars and FODMAP veg as well as all the gluten containing grains. To my surprise, my blood glucose levels have dropped by about 0.5mmol/l across the board. I had no idea that what is for me an apparently mild food intolerance could possibly be driving up my bg so consistently.

But I need to do a lot more testing before I commit to uber-gluten-free for life.

Dr Fung seems to think vinegar is hugely important, sufficient for it to get its own category of drives to get blood glucose down, its seems to have helped for me so far. I can envisage a life where there's no more cake or bread, I cannot envisage one where I can't use onions, garlic, mushrooms or cauliflower! still having said that I have a nephew who is severely gluten intolerant. I had blithely assumed that came from his other side not mine ... ho hum another thing to try , I do hope that doesn't help me one jot !

 

[Brunneria]

I can envisage a life where there's no more cake or bread, I cannot envisage one where I can't use onions, garlic, mushrooms or cauliflower!

I know. I am REALLY struggling with it.
Nearly all my cooking at this time of year is based on onion and garlic which then percolates exquisitely in the slow cooker.
While nearly all my low carbing involves cauli or broccoli so I can give Mr B a kind of potato-substitute.

But if I don't do a strict exclusion for a few weeks at least, followed by some test re-introductions, I will never know what the benefits are...

(as for vinegar, you CAN get some that are OK. Distilled vinegar, and a few others. Usually expensive. But what is baking my noodle at the moment is that by excluding any commercial preparations with vinegar/barley/etc in them, I have to exclude French style mustards, horseradish and all sorts of interesting condiments and seasonings. I can't use my jerk seasoning for example. )

 

[ickihun]

my going to bed numbr is consistently 6.5 and it prettmuch stays that way until morning. My morning number is ususally around 7 an then by the time I've made breakfast 8.3 - I;m upt oto around 11 half an hour after breakfast and it stays high for the next hour, though I can influence that a bit by a walk.


I woke around 5 am this morning with a reading of 6,0 so I took you advice and had 20g of cheese then went back to bed. woke up at 7.00 am reading 7, and made breakfast by which time 8.3 - so no change there then , except I'm now 80 calories eaten before I was awake. So nope that doesn't seem to help. I don't drink coffee , so maybe I'll just try some straight cream next !

Have a go and find what works for you. It can be manipulated to suppress the liver output. My blood tested showed excellent enzyme output blocking glucose. I'm confident it works for me.
Stress raises the daily bgs so if I'm dashing around with kids without doing a block I raise heavily. I've tried exercise immediately on rising, no breakfast and again it rises by at least 4mmol/l. Exercise on going can help my overall pre meal levels but not immediately. I rise first. So false economy for my overall hba1c result.
I must admit I'm not strictly sticking to my own advice. When I remember I do or have a flow of day on day habitual actions.
I'm a bit distracted elsewhere in my health not to be following it strictly. I will make a more conscious effort in a few weeks time. I'll heavily monitor and look for any improvements I can make going into 2017. It is a task for me at the mo. As I'm having breathing/heart problems so tiredness is taking over.

 

[amber22]

Hi thanks for this, when do you exercise? before eating breakfast or after it ? I've been doing it after and that certainly helps bring down the spike , havent actually dragged myself straight out of bed and into the park yet, but maybe I need to ! (i've been doing about 10,000 steps per day - roughly 90 minutes every day since diagnosis to try to change the morning numbers

@CherryAA
Hi, No I haven't managed the morning park dog walks yet. My walks are usually in the last hour of daylight so I can still see to throw a ball for the dog. Not usually timed after main meals. I make myself have a snack so I can take a Metformin tablet. I have a habit of not going out on an empty stomach from the days when I'd feel ill if I didn't eat then.
I have a few times gone out at night time after dinner when I've tested and seen a spike an hour after a meal. Then the bg has come down nicely after a 20 minute walk and tested at the 2 hour mark. I test after one hour if I have something new and carby.
And I re-test that same food weeks or months later to see if I can tolerate it any better.
@Brunneria
Thanks for reminding me of what I believe is another important factor.
The reason why I can exercise daily is that for the first time in years I am free of pain and I have more energy. I did not previously consider pain contributing to DP and higher glucose levels at other times.