Dawn Phenomenon - question for you guys waking in the 5's

[CherryAA]

I know. I am REALLY struggling with it.
Nearly all my cooking at this time of year is based on onion and garlic which then percolates exquisitely in the slow cooker.
While nearly all my low carbing involves cauli or broccoli so I can give Mr B a kind of potato-substitute.

But if I don't do a strict exclusion for a few weeks at least, followed by some test re-introductions, I will never know what the benefits are...

(as for vinegar, you CAN get some that are OK. Distilled vinegar, and a few others. Usually expensive. But what is baking my noodle at the moment is that by excluding any commercial preparations with vinegar/barley/etc in them, I have to exclude French style mustards, horseradish and all sorts of interesting condiments and seasonings. I can't use my jerk seasoning for example. )

Yes I can see your point, I will wait for you to report and in the meantime try and get off this weight plateaux. My weight has gone up by o.2 kilo every day this week despite sticking to the 1250 diet. and walking about 25 kilometers - ho hum.

I had a friend once, absolute health conscious nut, so keen to be thin and live forever, he ran miles, drank hot water with lemon in it instead of all those bad things like tea, coffee, wine or beer, you couldn't have a conversation with him without it being something else that was bad for you. he made me want to reach for cakes I don't even normally like. He dropped dead at 45 and no-one knew why. I guess for all of us,the trick is to find a way of living that actually lets us live a fun life and remind ourselves now and again that whilst controlling our blood sugars is important, it shouldn't be all consuming, because we could be run over by a bus tomorrow. So I'm off for a walk in the sunshine

 

[Hiitsme]

Hi @CherryAA
You asked if those of us with fasting readings in the 5's still experience lower readings at other times. Mine vary a lot and I'm sure for me stress also affects my readings. I can get stressed while cooking. Yesterday my fasting reading was 5.5. Before evening meal 5.5 then one a a half hours later 5.8 then a 30 mins walk and 4.1, so 2 hours after starting the meal I was well down from where I started. I woke with 5.1 this morning. I know that if I don't then eat it will keep going up. My last fasting blood test when I had to attend at the local hospital it had gone up well into the 6's by the time I'd waited a couple of hours for them them to take my blood. I am one of those really fortunate people who have managed to get control by losing weight, changing diet and walking. I only needed to lose a couple of stone so I really do feel for those who have much more weight to lose. I do a lot of walking - it's been averaging 8-10 miles a day over the last few months. I mostly do a 30 mins walk after evening meal. I am still learning and although for now I have some control I'm not sure what will happen long term. I don't very low carb but restrict carbs using my meter. Probably now up to 100 carbs some days though other days a bit less.I think when I was trying to lose weight I was down to about 50 carbs a day but I also counted calories and aimed for 500 calories less than what I was burning.

 

[CherryAA]

Hi @CherryAA
You asked if those of us with fasting readings in the 5's still experience lower readings at other times. Mine vary a lot and I'm sure for me stress also affects my readings. I can get stressed while cooking. Yesterday my fasting reading was 5.5. Before evening meal 5.5 then one a a half hours later 5.8 then a 30 mins walk and 4.1, so 2 hours after starting the meal I was well down from where I started. I woke with 5.1 this morning. I know that if I don't then eat it will keep going up. My last fasting blood test when I had to attend at the local hospital it had gone up well into the 6's by the time I'd waited a couple of hours for them them to take my blood. I am one of those really fortunate people who have managed to get control by losing weight, changing diet and walking. I only needed to lose a couple of stone so I really do feel for those who have much more weight to lose. I do a lot of walking - it's been averaging 8-10 miles a day over the last few months. I mostly do a 30 mins walk after evening meal. I am still learning and although for now I have some control I'm not sure what will happen long term. I don't very low carb but restrict carbs using my meter. Probably now up to 100 carbs some days though other days a bit less.I think when I was trying to lose weight I was down to about 50 carbs a day but I also counted calories and aimed for 500 calories less than what I was burning.

That's very helpful, You started at about the same hba11c as me , and three months in we were both at the 50 ish level which is where I now am , hopefully my 3-6 months development will also follow a similar path!. I've been walking on average 90 minutes per day, Not sure how you manage to walk ten miles in 30 minutes that would be a very brisk trot for me . my walking speed is about 4-5 km per hour . So I'm doing 7-8 km per day.

 

[Hiitsme]

That's very helpful, You started at about the same hba11c as me , and three months in we were both at the 50 ish level which is where I now am , hopefully my 3-6 months development will also follow a similar path!. I've been walking on average 90 minutes per day, Not sure how you manage to walk ten miles in 30 minutes that would be a very brisk trot for me . my walking speed is about 4-5 km per hour . So I'm doing 7-8 km per day.

My walking speed is slow, So about 4 hours walking in total. Max speed is about 3 mph.

 

[CherryAA]

My walking speed is slow, So about 4 hours walking in total. Max speed is about 3 mph.

thanks, the biggest issue for me is that there simply ain't enough hours in a day to do all this and still play with the cats, learn piano, cook and work ( not to mention the socialising !)

 

[Hiitsme]

thanks, the biggest issue for me is that there simply ain't enough hours in a day to do all this and still play with the cats, learn piano, cook and work ( not to mention the socialising !)

I'm retired. Use the walking to walk to the shops and carry things home in small quantities. This does seem to take all day but probably will cut down walking a little over the winter but then I will need to reduce what I'm eating..

 

[CherryAA]

Ha ha, Actually I've just started doing the same, its a 7 km trip to my local supermarket taking the long way, I went and bought a lettuce today ! maybe we are hitherto unidentified twins .

I'm trying to create a 1000 calorie a day deficit, I find I can aboutcope with a diet of about 1250 in terms of it being interesting enough,much less and I start cheating. I need to add in a further 600-800 of exercise every day to get to my goal hence the walking.

 

[CherryAA]

Well well well, pre dinner reading of 5.6 - no new exercise or alcohol. just sitting at my desk, and one hour later after a lie down, still 5.6 . Its only ever happened before directly after an hour in the pool or after a walk and whiskey. Maybe the 20g of cheese this morning did make a difference ! total 1040 cal 46 Protein, 17 Carb 50 Fat. excellent

 

[Hiitsme]

Well well well, pre dinner reading of 5.6 - no new exercise or alcohol. just sitting at my desk, and one hour later after a lie down, still 5.6 . Its only ever happened before directly after an hour in the pool or after a walk and whiskey. Maybe the 20g of cheese this morning did make a difference ! total 1040 cal 46 Protein, 17 Carb 50 Fat. excellent

Very good. I did spike this evening 4.6 before meal, 7.8 90 mins later, then my 30 mins walk and back to 4.6 so not worried. Meal was one of my usual and not many carbs.

Been going through some of my old spreadsheets. Dec 2015 to Mar 2016 my average morning fasting was 5.8 with quite a few 6's and a couple in the 7's. My HbA1c in March 2016 was 33. As I said before I'm still learning but thought this might encourage you.

 

[CherryAA]

Thanks,

My 5.6 spiked at 8.3 with dinner but is back at 5.6 by bed time though admittedly my evening consisted of three single malts and some nuts whilst talking animatedly on the sofa - which I doubt counts as exercise! still the first time I've gone to bed under 6.

 

[CherryAA]

my going to bed numbr is consistently 6.5 and it prettmuch stays that way until morning. My morning number is ususally around 7 an then by the time I've made breakfast 8.3 - I;m upt oto around 11 half an hour after breakfast and it stays high for the next hour, though I can influence that a bit by a walk.


I woke around 5 am this morning with a reading of 6,0 so I took you advice and had 20g of cheese then went back to bed. woke up at 7.00 am reading 7, and made breakfast by which time 8.3 - so no change there then , except I'm now 80 calories eaten before I was awake. So nope that doesn't seem to help. I don't drink coffee , so maybe I'll just try some straight cream next !

@ickihun,
Whilst this did not help yesterday morning, I did find my numbers were better for the rest of the day after breakfast, I went to bed with a reading of 5.6, woke up at 5.00 and the reading was 6.5 had the 20g cheese and a glass of water with vinegar in it. I finally got up at 8.30 and the reading was 6.8 so all in all it looks like the cheese might be helping . Thank for that Ickihun

 

[ickihun]

@ickihun,
Whilst this did not help yesterday morning,I did find my numbers were better for the rest of the day after breakfast, I went to bed with a reading of 5.6, woke up at 5.00 and the reading was 6.5 had the 20g cheese and a glass of water with vinegar in it. I finally got up at 8.30 and the reading was 6.8 so all in all it looks like the cheese might be helping . Thank for that Ickihun

You could have slow digestion, at the mo. Dr Bernstein's book mentions chewing sugar free gum to help with slow digestion. I've used it myself in a time I couldnt use metformin. Metformin helps with liver storage too.
Stick with what you know know what works for you and tweek areas your not happy with.
An excellent result thou. Well done.

 

[CherryAA]

You could have slow digestion, at the mo. Dr Bernstein's book mentions chewing sugar free gum to help with slow digestion. I've used it myself in a time I couldnt use metformin. Metformin helps with liver storage too.
Stick with what you know know what works for you and tweek areas your not happy with.
An excellent result thou. Well done.

I have notice that it seems to be a very slow process in the mornings -
6.8 pre
8.5 at 15
8.7 at 30
9.6. at 45
9.6 at 60
9.5 at 75
8.5 at 90
9.2 at 105
8.6 at 120
then 6.8 at 180

breakfast was 347 calories 15P 9C 27F

I have often seen another rise around 105 - which I assume might be something to do with the proteins elemet .

I will give the sugar free gum a try .
( sorry about the detail mainly for me to recall ! )

 

[ickihun]

I have notice that it seems to be a very slow process in the mornings -
6.8 pre
8.5 at 15
8.7 at 30
9.6. at 45
9.6 at 60
9.5 at 75
8.5 at 90
9.2 at 105
8.6 at 120
then 6.8 at 180

breakfast was 347 calories 15P 9C 27F

I have often seen another rise around 105 - which I assume might be something to do with the proteins elemet .

I will give the sugar free gum a try .
( sorry about the detail mainly for me to recall ! )

Just remember it isn't the calories in breakfast but no carb or low carb gets the best sugar levels for the morning. Can be no spike on medium protein and good fat breakfast! No carb or very low carb will reduce those 9s. Give it a go?

 

[kokhongw]

I am intrigued to understand what happens if you don't suffer the dawn phenomenon, i.e morning readings in the 4- 5's - do you still experience lower afternoons and evenings anyway or does it get harder during the. day to keep to these low numbers?

I typically wake up to 5.0-5.5 over the past 12 months. Whenever Fasting glucose creeps towards 6 mmol because of a high carb dinner, I will skip dinner for the day. Breakfast and lunch can still be fairly high carb, but by evening it will be back to 5.5 mmol for me.

But in the coming weeks I am planning a multi-day fast with the help of a couple spoonful of virgin coconut oil in the morning for 3-5 days to further improve my fasting glucose towards 4.0 mmol. And perhaps my first phase insulin response...

 

[CherryAA]

Just remember it isn't the calories in breakfast but no carb or low carb gets the best sugar levels for the morning. Can be no spike on medium protein and good fat breakfast! No carb or very low carb will reduce those 9s. Give it a go?

the meal that started this query was a breakfast of only 2 carbs ( a few pine nuts and some hemp turmeric milk (7.5 waking, 8.3 re breakfast, 9.3 1 hr 9.6 2 hr 9.3 3 hr 7.6 ) that first got me asking this question because it seems the increase happens on minimal food, so I wondered what happened to you guys after that first reading. it seems I do need to eat more substantially at the start of the day to get things moving. The cheese and vinegar start of the day definitely seems to help (I was spiking to as much as 12 even if for a short time last week on minimal carbs. Currently the regime definitely feels likes its in a positive direction which it didn't last week, so I will stick with it for a few days, then maybe switch it up some more then.

Currently I don't really see a connection between the actual measurements and the meals. I keep being pleasantly surprised when meals out are not as bad as expected and indeed sometimes give me the best readings, whereas those at home seem to cause me to spike on minimal carbs ( all carefully weighed and measured and no cheating ) . It seems like more food gives better blood sugar results, which would be marvelous if I didn't need to lose a lot of weight!

 

[kokhongw]

(7.5 waking, 8.3 re breakfast, 9.3 1 hr 9.6 2 hr 9.3 3 hr 7.6 )

In the early stages where the liver still has sufficient glycogen and fats store fasting glucose will remain elevated. Your focus should be on maintaining post meal glucose spikes to within 2 mmol which you are doing extremely well. Over time the fasting glucose will improve.

If you want to accelerate the normalization of fasting glucose to < 6mmol...then consider intermittent fasting. Skip a couple of dinner...do it for a couple of weeks...

 

[CherryAA]

Thanks Kohongw.

I keep meanig to skip dinner but then it starts to look sooo inviting ! : )

 

[ickihun]

the meal that started this query was a breakfast of only 2 carbs ( a few pine nuts and some hemp turmeric milk (7.5 waking, 8.3 re breakfast, 9.3 1 hr 9.6 2 hr 9.3 3 hr 7.6 ) that first got me asking this question because it seems the increase happens on minimal food, so I wondered what happened to you guys after that first reading. it seems I do need to eat more substantially at the start of the day to get things moving. The cheese and vinegar start of the day definitely seems to help (I was spiking to as much as 12 even if for a short time last week on minimal carbs. Currently the regime definitely feels likes its in a positive direction which it didn't last week, so I will stick with it for a few days, then maybe switch it up some more then.

Currently I don't really see a connection between the actual measurements and the meals. I keep being pleasantly surprised when meals out are not as bad as expected and indeed sometimes give me the best readings, whereas those at home seem to cause me to spike on minimal carbs ( all carefully weighed and measured and no cheating ) . It seems like more food gives better blood sugar results, which would be marvelous if I didn't need to lose a lot of weight!

This is how I feel.
I've just read the british heart foundation booklets about diabetes and reducing the risk of coronary heart disease. I'm doing all things except I cannot walk far because of agonising pain. For about a year now my mobility has been reduced. I believe I have the eating to my monitor at a good level and I watch everything I eat.
It can only be mobility now for me. Although my bgs are good and have been for a while now.
I've being investigated for coronary heart disease!

 

[CherryAA]

This is how I feel.
I've just read the british heart foundation booklets about diabetes and reducing the risk of coronary heart disease. I'm doing all things except I cannot walk far because of agonising pain. For about a year now my mobility has been reduced. I believe I have the eating to my monitor at a good level and I watch everything I eat.
It can only be mobility now for me. Although my bgs are good and have been for a while now.
I've being investigated for coronary heart disease!

I'm sorry to hear that, Are you attempting to diet? I know for me I feel immeasurably more healthy at 95 kg than I did at 115kg and that will certainly help coronary risk too. I know its very hard to do especially when its hard to exercise. Have you considered going to your local swimming pool? its very easy on the joints and even gentle movement in the water burns quite a few calories, not just because of the exercise but because your body has to work to keep warm. I can't go at present because of my recent accident, but its certainly my first choice of exercise and much less dangerous than walking it seems !