"Defatizing............"

[sugar2]

Another one who agrees with Viv. I am interested to see how the guys do, and wish them all the best.

I think it has long been said...for decades that losing weight helps with diabetes control, so this is hardly new stuff. The loss of weight from the organs, in such a drastic way is though, so I am interested to see what happens. The fact that a drastic and rapid decrease in weight leads to a drastic and rapid decrease in the need for meds, or BG levels does not surprise me in the least..it is the fact that the guys believe that doing so an lead to a cure, which I am fasinated by. So far, I don't think anybody would be surprised by the results. I am T1, but my T2 dad is one of those T2s who is not, and has never been overweight. This makes me curious...are there 2 kinds (was going to say types!!! wrong word obviously) of T2, people whose diabetes may have it origins in bad luck, and is linked to weight, where as other is related to bad luck, but not related to weight? I remember my Dad being really annoyed to be told by his overweight dr to lose weight...when his BMI was pretty much perfect. I know wonder, did this GP actually think he had fatty organs?

 

[minitata]

Please don't delete it. The girl died of an electrolyte imbalance. We don't know whether the diet caused, exacerbated or had little to do with it. Everything people do to control their diabetes is of use to someone. As long as people remember that forum threads are not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth for every person in every thread, then they will be okay. Before you follow anyone elses' stance you should research and think for yourself whether it is right for YOU. If only the threads that were of no harm to anyone were posted there would be very few. Even the jokes don't always suit, (I find one of the latest offensive, but that's just me ).

MTT

 

[Patch]

Even after we have heard that one person has tragically died following this type of diet?

People die every day crossing the road. Doesn't mean we should all stay on the pavement our whole lives.

I, for one, would very quickly get sick of walking around the same block...

 

[RussG]

No Patch, but it should serve as a reminder to look both ways before crossing the road. Or perhaps to cross where someone has put a safe crossing in, y'know, like a professional has advised you where to cross...

 

[Patch]

If a person needs help or advice to cross a road, then that person should DEFINITELY consult a Dr. before undertaking any kind of activity that requires even a tiny amount of common sense.

That's what it all boils down to.

 

[Pneu]

As with anything... people need to exercise some common sense...

These diets are clearly quite radical... it would be unwise for anyone to change to a diet of this kind without first consulting their HCP... however we also must treat people as adults who make informed decisions and it is up to them to decide.

I do think the threads should stay, I think however a warning should be present in the first post to those reading pointing them in the direction of their HCP to properly discuss and evaluate the benefit of such a diet to them as an individual before they undertake such a radical change.

 

[benedict]

I think however a warning should be present in the first post to those reading pointing them in the direction of their HCP to properly discuss and evaluate the benefit of such a diet to them as an individual before they undertake such a radical change.

Thanks Pneu, I've put this in place. A warning has been added to the first post of each of the two threads that are running on this.

 

[borofergie]

You also need to take into account the cost of inaction. Patch and Kenny are proactively trying something that will hopefully reduce their chances of complications in the long run. Even if they don't cure their diabetes (which they probably won't), they'll probably both shift some belly weight that will reduce their insulin resistance.

If I listened only to my GP and Dietician I'd be in a much worse place than I am now. Many of us follow supposedly "extreme" low-carb diets against the direct instructions of our GPs. Maybe we should also censor any mention of them? How about banning the mention of exercise programmes not approved by our doctors?

 

[Patch]

As with anything... people need to exercise some common sense...

These diets are clearly quite radical... it would be unwise for anyone to change to a diet of this kind without first consulting their HCP... however we also must treat people as adults who make informed decisions and it is up to them to decide.

Agree.

I do think the threads should stay, I think however a warning should be present in the first post to those reading pointing them in the direction of their HCP to properly discuss and evaluate the benefit of such a diet to them as an individual before they undertake such a radical change.

Disagree. :evil: I really don't want to get personal, and forgive me if I offend, but how can you say "treat like adults" and then go on to say "a warning should be present".

Maybe it's a probelm I have, in that I ASSUME most people DO have a certain level of common sense. It's like warning people that a paper coffee cup "may be hot". :lol:

A lot of stuff based on common sense

Two thumbs up, BF!

 

[Pneu]

I do think the threads should stay, I think however a warning should be present in the first post to those reading pointing them in the direction of their HCP to properly discuss and evaluate the benefit of such a diet to them as an individual before they undertake such a radical change.

Disagree. :evil: I really don't want to get personal, and forgive me if I offend, but how can you say "treat like adults" and then go on to say "a warning should be present".

Maybe it's a probelm I have, in that I ASSUME most people DO have a certain level of common sense. It's like warning people that a paper coffee cup "may be hot". :lol:

A lot of people who come on these forums Patch are ill-informed and in some cases quiet desperate... desperate people make poor decisions and although you, me, many others on this site can make informed decisions they may not.. we do need to treat people as adults and let them make a decision; but we also I believe have a duty of care if we are posting what could be construed as advise to ensure that these for lack of a better word vulnerable individuals make that in conjunction with proper considered medical advice.

 

[noblehead]

Let's just set the record straight, it is of no concern to me what other members do or don't do in regards to how they treat their diabetes or live the lives, therefore should the individuals concerned choose to follow the Newcastle study in their own way without medical supervision then that is up to them.

My concern is that these threads are running and drawing a lot of attention due to them being permanently at the top of the Active Topics section..... hence why I voiced my opinion. As we have new members who come to the forum often desperate, afraid and looking for any means possible to reverse or control their diabetes then these threads could be highly misleading and ****-right dangerous should they follow the example of these members.

Just to reiterate, DUK say the following:

''Diabetes UK is keen to stress this study involved an extreme diet conducted under close medical supervision. We strongly recommend people do not attempt to lose weight in this way. People with diabetes who want to lose weight should consult their health care team before undertaking any eating plan''.

My own thoughts on the study is encouraging and a step in the right direction, but time will tell if this is indeed a reversal or just a remission of their condition. The members here who are 'Defatizing' by their own means have no idea if their diet is successful or not other than their weight loss, without close supervision and MRI scans to determine any fat reduction in their liver and pancreas they will never know if they have achieved what the study participants achieved.

I wish them well and hope they don't come to any harm with their 'Defatizing diets' , as a precaution I would ask them to at least consult their gp during or after their diet is over to see if any harm has come from their starvation diet.

As a responsible and highly respected diabetes forum, I am somewhat disappointed that Diabetes.Co.Uk have allowed these threads to continue given the warnings issued by Newcastle University and DUK, that said this is my final word on the subject and I'll not comment on this again!

Nigel

 

[RussG]

Pneu hits the nail on the head.

Treating people as adults means giving them all the available information, including the fact that this diet is potentially dangerous, is largely unproven and should only be carried out under medical supervision. This is doubly important for people who may well be coming here fresh from a diagnosis,possibly scared, upset, angry or desperate for a cure. If you don't like that view from DUK, then find another forum to post in

Saying that being treated like an adult is incompatible with being given warnings is nonsensical at best.

 

[Patch]

Pneu hits the nail on the head.

Treating people as adults means giving them all the available information, including the fact that this diet is potentially dangerous, is largely unproven and should only be carried out under medical supervision. This is doubly important for people who may well be coming here fresh from a diagnosis,possibly scared, upset, angry or desperate for a cure. If you don't like that view from DUK, then find another forum to post in

Saying that being treated like an adult is incompatible with being given warnings is nonsensical at best.

[mod edit: sarcastic comment]

Re: Potentially dangerous - personally, I think that's a bit of scare mongering.

I'm really upset that the recent discussion on this forum has made it a place for bickering again. For a while back there I really enjoyed not having to word my posts so as not to potentially offend anyone.

I was absolutely delighted to discover that this regime worked for me (lost weight, reduced fasting BGs, stopped meds, etc...). It's still early days, but I plan to see this through, and am positive that I'll get the results that I want.

BUT - the bashing this plan has got is getting me down.

Thanks for that.

As we have new members who come to the forum often desperate, afraid ...

How patronising do you want to be???

There is this opinion among certain members here that newbies are to be molly coddled, and treated as if they are incapable of making their own decisions.

It's embarrassing - you people should be ashamed.

 

[Patch]

I did it myself in the 80's with one of these shakes diets, lost loads of weight and put it straight back on plus a bit more because I failed to change my eating and drinking habits afterwards and its lifestyle changes that result in long term weight loss.

So the shake diet did work, but you're own failure to adjust to a healthy lifestyle to maintain the lower weight meant you put it all back on?

What did you think would happen?

 

[borofergie]

They serve no purpose whatsoever except to the individuals involved

My concern is that these threads are running and drawing a lot of attention due to them being permanently at the top of the Active Topics section...

I'd suggest that the posts are at the top of the Active Topics section because they do serve a purpose to the community as a whole.

People deal with their diabetes in different ways. I thought that the general philosophy around here was that we are all differet and that any method of dealing with our diabetes is legitimate.

As Nigel eloquently wrote in a different thread:

It is and never has been anyone's business how members control their diabetes, we as members are only here to advise and offer support..

This is just another method of control and is as legitmate as all of the others.

Pre-Bernstein I'm sure that most people thought that the low-carb thing was stupid / dangerous, in fact many people still do. If no-one experimented, and no-one took risks, then our understanding of Diabetes wouldn't progress at all.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

I did it myself in the 80's with one of these shakes diets, lost loads of weight and put it straight back on plus a bit more because I failed to change my eating and drinking habits afterwards and its lifestyle changes that result in long term weight loss.

So the shake diet did work, but you're own failure to adjust to a healthy lifestyle to maintain the lower weight meant you put it all back on?

Yes I did loose weight but I failed to make any actual lifestyle changes just as it will not work for anyone else unless they make the necessary changes to their diet, I've said many times that diabetes is for life and I dont know anyone who has lost weight effectively by short term dieting alone. You need a diet for life, be it reduced carbs, portion control, low carb, ultra low carb etc. A short term fix is just what it says, short term.

What did you think would happen?

What do you think will happen, we have already read of Kenny's lapse. Unless you change your eating and drinking habits this will simply not work.

Feel free to use my negativity to fuel your resolve Patch I still dont believe it will work but I'll be happy for you if it does.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

You also need to take into account the cost of inaction. Patch and Kenny are proactively trying something that will hopefully reduce their chances of complications in the long run. Even if they don't cure their diabetes (which they probably won't), they'll probably both shift some belly weight that will reduce their insulin resistance.

If they can keep it off, yes, but I dont believe that short term diets will ever work long term, unless major lifestyle changes are made this is just useless.

And I dont think anyone is disregarding the cost of inactivity just this particular diet. I was proactive two and a half years ago, it wasnt easy but I lost 4 stone and came off insulin AND have kept that weight off all without resorting to questionable diets, I simply (simply LOL) reduced my carb intake and drastically reduced the amount of all food groups that I ate. A major lifestyle change in a nutshell, not a quick fix.

 

[benedict]

As a responsible and highly respected diabetes forum, I am somewhat disappointed that Diabetes.Co.Uk have allowed these threads to continue given the warnings issued by Newcastle University and DUK, that said this is my final word on the subject and I'll not comment on this again!

Nigel

Thank you for taking the trouble to post.

I think if this thread were to be deleted, one could argue that Viv's modified Atkins diet thread, amongst others, should also be removed because it also goes against conventional thinking and could be deemed dangerous long term by certain people.

A lot of thought has gone into the decisions that have been made. The forum has a responsibility for its members but people also have a responsibility for themselves.

 

[bowell]

Calm Down Calm Down

Its only a Diet
Sold in most chemists you don't need a prescription for it or GP approval

Who here has asked there GP before going LOW CARB or Atkins ? Not to many I bet :roll:
Remember asking my DB nurse about Low Carb i had the Riot Act :?
DUK quote

diabetes who want to lose weight should consult their health care team before undertaking any eating plan''.

Overtime many have taken all diets too far and paid the price also tragic
My next door Neighbor overdosed on insulin (suicide) very tragic.
insulin is not banned its up to you to use it safely
Its only now I really understand why she did it due to her Chronic Pain.


MY GP has seen all paper work on this Now given me the OK do this I start in two weeks time After new Pain med settled down Told I may even get it on prescription ,,so stick that in your pipe and smoke it :wink: MRI also booked
Think I am poorer shape than most of you on here ,,heath wise

I Dont know if i will post any progress or not ,,its Becoming bit of a Witch hunt on here

Why to you think all NEW diabetics are STUPID and need to be treated like FOOLS

Simple thing called ---- Freewill I will do as i please

 

[Sid Bonkers]

I think if this thread were to be deleted, one could argue that Viv's modified Atkins diet thread, amongst others, should also be removed because it also goes against conventional thinking and could be deemed dangerous long term by certain people.

With respect Benedict Viv's diet is a lot higher in calories than the Newcastle study diet and as such would be unlikely to be labelled as dangerous.