Delaying the Progression of Type 1 Diabetes

[SamJB]

Are you a Type 1 diabetic? Just doing and seeing are different things if not done together ergo I've recently injected 6.5u for 110g carbs of which 90g would be from the brown basmati rice, I was at 4.6 on injecting, currently 6;4 with a slope up, the injection could and should have been 10 minutes sooner but I was cooking a pie for my little un, my blood will peak at around 7.9 before sloping back to mid 5's, allowing me to take a couple u for 2 Weetabix for my supper.

I can't see anything wrong with doing that either, nor does my Libre although I'll probably require 12g carbs in the shape of a two finger Kit Kat in an hour.

Sorry to be a pedant, but the mathematical law is called the “propagation of errors”, basically lots of small errors add up to a big one. The 20% error in carb values on labels, the 20% error in injected insulin becoming active, to name but 2; both become insignificant for small amounts of carbs and significant for larger amounts of carbs.

 

[evilclive]

The Laws of Small Numbers - “Big inputs make big mistakes; small inputs make small mistakes.” (quote from "Diabetes Solution") I can't see anything wrong with that.

So small inputs might make it easier - but it's still possible to have those larger inputs and get it right, especially in these days of CGM. It's not necessarily a useful or important "law".

Yes, some people might find those recommendations useful - but they're by no means universal, and mustn't be presented as such in the way that some people do. As I mentioned earlier, I'm already doing what some believe is impossible, and I'm not super-special.

Also when injecting, the error on bigger doses is going to be smaller, which actually works against this "law".

I absolutely agree. I find it tragic that so many people even here are ignorant of the choices they have.

This comment irks me. How about considering that maybe most people aren't ignorant of the choices, yet still choose to go against what you're recommending? You're getting dangerously close to cultism here. Stick to the way that the various T1Ds here present their low-carbing - they present it as something which works for them, they don't try and claim the rest of us are tragic because we're not following.

 

[kev-w]

Sorry to be a pedant, but the mathematical law is called the “propagation of errors”, basically lots of small errors add up to a big one. The 20% error in carb values on labels, the 20% error in injected insulin becoming active, to name but 2; both become insignificant for small amounts of carbs and significant for larger amounts of carbs.

I'm sorry to be a pedant too but that law's from statistical analysis and not as in the example you set.

 

[Alexandra100]

This comment irks me. How about considering that maybe most people aren't ignorant of the choices, yet still choose to go against what you're recommending?

When I said, "I find it tragic that so many people even here are ignorant of the choices they have." I meant exactly that. It was not an indirect dig at experienced T1s who choose carb counting and appear to thrive on it (or even if they do not thrive - it's their right to choose). But IMO most people are indeed ignorant of their choices. I see them arriving every day on the Forum, distressed, knowing little and understanding less, sometimes abandoned by their medical practitioners with the promise of an appointment in several weeks. This will apply more to T2s than T1s, but I agree with Dr Ian Lake that everyone should be given the information that if on insulin they can choose between low carb and carb counting.

 

[Jaylee]

The Laws of Small Numbers - “Big inputs make big mistakes; small inputs make small mistakes.” (quote from "Diabetes Solution") I can't see anything wrong with that.

However, during the honeymoon, it's the pancreas that throws out the "stinger" & punctures the tires.
The pancreas is still capable of randomly sabotaging the "working profile" of exogenous even with "the small numbers."
Try planning a "run" aticipating either omitting or low dosage insulin whilst the pancreas wants the "last say...?"

I absolutely agree. I find it tragic that so many people even here are ignorant of the choices they have.

I would wager, your personal "choice" as it stands now (& pretty much ongoing.) with what I read from your posts regarding your current A1c status has a high chance of not using prescribed insulin... By the time this possibly happens, there will be an ultimate cure for the community?
in which case, neither of us will need to discuss or read about insulin related issues.

...if however, you are prescribed insulin? You will be posting different threads on your "experiences" with the drug.
& a separate discussion will take place...

Untill then..
Keep doing what you personally do, diet wise..

 

[Robinredbreast]

Are you a Type 1 diabetic? Just doing and seeing are different things if not done together ergo I've recently injected 6.5u for 110g carbs of which 90g would be from the brown basmati rice, I was at 4.6 on injecting, currently 6;4 with a slope up, the injection could and should have been 10 minutes sooner but I was cooking a pie for my little un, my blood will peak at around 7.9 before sloping back to mid 5's, allowing me to take a couple u for 2 Weetabix for my supper.

I can't see anything wrong with doing that either, nor does my Libre although I'll probably require 12g carbs in the shape of a two finger Kit Kat in an hour.

Hi Kev, The Op is down as prediabetic.

No Type 1's are the same and what works for you wont work for other's, even if they are the same sex, build or do the same type of exercise regime.
But onto the title of the thread, I, as far as I know, never had a honeymoon period, never even heard of it until i saw it being discussed on this forum.
When I was diagnosed I had a house to run, two children to look after ( on my own as Ex left months earlier) so walked everywhere, work ( on my feet) diy, gardening too, so a busy life, which counts as exercise. Did you have a honeymoon period ? if you have already mentioned this, apologises for asking.

 

[Alexandra100]

However, during the honeymoon, it's the pancreas that throws out the "stinger" & punctures the tires.
The pancreas is still capable of randomly sabotaging the "working profile" of exogenous even with "the small numbers."
Try planning a "run" aticipating either omitting or low dosage insulin whilst the pancreas wants the "last say...?"



I would wager, your personal "choice" as it stands now (& pretty much ongoing.) with what I read from your posts regarding your current A1c status has a high chance of not using prescribed insulin... By the time this possibly happens, there will be an ultimate cure for the community?
in which case, neither of us will need to discuss or read about insulin related issues.

...if however, you are prescribed insulin? You will be posting different threads on your "experiences" with the drug.
& a seperate discussion will take place...

Untill then..
Keep doing what you personally do, diet wise..

Since I am seriously skinny, am taking the maximum dose of Glucophage, eating VLC and exercising after meals and at other times without seeing much result, I conclude that I am probably mainly suffering not from insulin resistance but from insulin insufficiency. However you are right, given my numbers no-one is going to prescribe me insulin unless my numbers deteriorate quite a lot. You are also correct in saying that my attitude to low carb may change if/when I start injecting insulin. I do have little fantasies of starting insulin and being able to eat a few more carbs. I am not talking about doughnuts here, just maybe my full 30g carbs allowance from Dr B. As I am pretty much innumerate, I don't at all fancy my chances carb counting.

 

[evilclive]

This will apply more to T2s than T1s, but I agree with Dr Ian Lake that everyone should be given the information that if on insulin they can choose between low carb and carb counting.

First up : "here" is the Type 1 Diabetes section of diabetes.co.uk. If you're posting stuff which isn't really relevant to T1D, does it really belong here?

Second, and probably more important : That's basically wrong. Have you not noticed that even the low carbers here carb count? Carb + protein counting even.

(although I don't formally carb count, I do estimate my way to the same effect)

 

[SamJB]

I'm sorry to be a pedant too but that law's from statistical analysis and not as in the example you set.

No need to apologise, your statement agrees exactly with what I just said.

 

[Robinredbreast]

When I said, "I find it tragic that so many people even here are ignorant of the choices they have." I meant exactly that. It was not an indirect dig at experienced T1s who choose carb counting and appear to thrive on it (or even if they do not thrive - it's their right to choose). But IMO most people are indeed ignorant of their choices. I see them arriving every day on the Forum, distressed, knowing little and understanding less, sometimes abandoned by their medical practitioners with the promise of an appointment in several weeks. This will apply more to T2s than T1s, but I agree with Dr Ian Lake that everyone should be given the information that if on insulin they can choose between low carb and carb counting.

As a type 1, I can have reduced carbs ( I don't like the use of the words low carb, because this term differ's greatly for so many) eg salad and a piece of meat or fish, coleslaw and I still have to carb count, there's no getting away from it. Even eating scrambled egg and bacon I will have to take Insulin and it is more Insulin than I would have for a small breakfast yogurt.

Edited to say, Carb counting as a choice !! believe me, there is no choice, yes I thrive on carb counting, because I have to take Insulin to match it, whether it be 10 carbs or 50 carbs, to keep me alive !!

 

[Robinredbreast]

First up : "here" is the Type 1 Diabetes section of diabetes.co.uk. If you're posting stuff which isn't really relevant to T1D, does it really belong here?

Second, and probably more important : That's basically wrong. Have you not noticed that even the low carbers here carb count? Carb + protein counting even.

(although I don't formally carb count, I do estimate my way to the same effect)

Hi, I have posted something similar.

 

[kev-w]

Hi Kev, The Op is down as prediabetic.

No Type 1's are the same and what works for you wont work for other's, even if they are the same sex, build or do the same type of exercise regime.
But onto the title of the thread, I, as far as I know, never had a honeymoon period, never even heard of it until i saw it being discussed on this forum.
When I was diagnosed I had a house to run, two children to look after ( on my own as Ex left months earlier) so walked everywhere, work ( on my feet) diy, gardening too, so a busy life, which counts as exercise. Did you have a honeymoon period ? if you have already mentioned this, apologises for asking.

Hiya RobinRedBreast, good birthday weekend with child? The honeymoon? They didn't have them in my day and like you learned of them on here, I think mine lasted 5 years plus when I look back, I do remember telling the doctor I reckoned I still made insulin but he disagreed and said it was all the sport that caused hypos so I don't know, I was 17, a growing lad and at first pretty wild so control could have been better, but even when I got my head round the problem I still had unexplained random lows that weren't self inflicted.

 

[Robinredbreast]

Since I am seriously skinny, am taking the maximum dose of Glucophage, eating VLC and exercising after meals and at other times without seeing much result, I conclude that I am probably mainly suffering not from insulin resistance but from insulin insufficiency. However you are right, given my numbers no-one is going to prescribe me insulin unless my numbers deteriorate quite a lot. You are also correct in saying that my attitude to low carb may change if/when I start injecting insulin. I do have little fantasies of starting insulin and being able to eat a few more carbs. I am not talking about doughnuts here, just maybe my full 30g carbs allowance from Dr B. As I am pretty much innumerate, I don't at all fancy my chances carb counting.

I don't know why you would think you may be prescribed Insulin in the future, as metformin ( as far as I am aware) is usually the first medication a GP prescribes to the majority of type 2's.

 

[kev-w]

No need to apologise, your statement agrees exactly with what I just said.

Honestly it doesn't.

 

[Alexandra100]

"here" is the Type 1 Diabetes section of diabetes.co.uk. If you're posting stuff which isn't really relevant to T1D, does it really belong here?

The original topic I posted was research on T1. If this thread has wandered off-topic, I don't think I can be held solely responsible. I used the phrase "carb counting" as I have heard it used by eg Dr Ian Lake (T1) as a counterpart to "low carb". If you have a better phrase for what you do, please tell me. I'll be glad to use it in future.

Perhaps it would be better to use the term "insulin dependant"? Aside from this bickering about terminology, the important point is, there are two ways to use diet to manage diabetes. Recently diagnosed diabetics and those new to injecting insulin in particular should be made aware that they exist and that patients can choose between them.

 

[Robinredbreast]

Hiya RobinRedBreast, good birthday weekend with child? The honeymoon? They didn't have them in my day and like you learned of them on here, I think mine lasted 5 years plus when I look back, I do remember telling the doctor I reckoned I still made insulin but he disagreed and said it was all the sport that caused hypos so I don't know, I was 17, a growing lad and at first pretty wild so control could have been better, but even when I got my head round the problem I still had unexplained random lows that weren't self inflicted.

So a 17 year old then and probably still lots of hormonal changes going on in your body and pretty wild too
Same here, in 1989 no one said anything to me about a honeymoon period, I was in North Tees general for a week, then a follow up in my own hospital. But........... I was told a cure was on the horizon ................

Birthday girl is 18 tomorrow and I made her a chocolate cake, gluten free too, oh dear lol, so lots and lots of carb counting for me

 

[SamJB]

Honestly it doesn't.

Thanks Kev, for being so honest about your misconceptions with me.

 

[Jaylee]

Fair comment. As it was I who posted the topic, I hope I am allowed to say that I do like these free-ranging discussions, which go after all rather like the best conversations in real life. As long as there is not a distressed OP failing to get the help s/he needs because all the potential helpers are off topic having fun, does it really matter?

As a mod. I'm quite happy to,allow your wishes... (I'm easy going..!)

The original topic I posted was research on T1. If this thread has wandered off-topic, I don't think I can be held solely responsible. I used the phrase "carb counting" as I have heard it used by eg Dr Ian Lake (T1) as a counterpart to "low carb". If you have a better phrase for what you do, please tell me. I'll be glad to use it in future.

Perhaps it would be better to use the term "insulin dependant"? Aside from this bickering about terminology, the important point is, there are two ways to use diet to manage diabetes. Recently diagnosed diabetics and those new to injecting insulin in particular should be made aware that they exist and that patients can choose between them.

We're on the subject of "prolonging" the "honeymoon period." There are a variety (with their own experience.) of T1s managing however they do "it" now with memories of the the "Wild water rafting" of honeymooning, contributing to,this thread... Please continue, @Alexandra100 ......

 

[LooperCat]

@Alexandra100 - on the subject of carb counting, it’s an essential skill if you are to use insulin effectively and safely - by which I mean looking at labels, measuring and weighing food at home and eyeballing it when you’re out (or looking at nutritional info online for chains). With the very low carb diets that you and I follow, you also need to dose for protein, at a different ratio to that for carbs. There’s a lot of maths involved with insulin use, taking into account not just the food you’re about to eat, but what you’re doing, your current BG level, time of day (and month)...

You can’t choose between low carb and carb counting as an insulin user - you have to account for every single gram of carbs when you eat low amounts of them, even if they are in broccoli, for example. Our higher carb friends can “lose” the veg among the pasta and their doses will cover all of it.

 

[michita]

@Alexandra100 - on the subject of carb counting, it’s an essential skill if you are to use insulin effectively and safely - by which I mean looking at labels, measuring and weighing food at home and eyeballing it when you’re out (or looking at nutritional info online for chains). With the very low carb diets that you and I follow, you also need to dose for protein, at a different ratio to that for carbs. There’s a lot of maths involved with insulin use, taking into account not just the food you’re about to eat, but what you’re doing, your current BG level, time of day (and month)...

You can’t choose between low carb and carb counting as an insulin user - you have to account for every single gram of carbs when you eat low amounts of them, even if they are in broccoli, for example. Our higher carb friends can “lose” the veg among the pasta and their doses will cover all of it.

So do you actually count carbs in vegetables and adjust insulin? I don't really count carbs and that's one of the reasons I like low carbing. I also don't have to bolus for proteins. I normally inject 2 units (but adjust by volume) for each meal and that works. I wonder if there are any other type 1s on very low carb diet who doesn't have to bolus for proteins. Is this because I'm still honeymooning but 2 units for low carb meal doesn't sound so. I don't quite understand but it works (so far)