Diabetes & Health Strategy Ideas

[Mbaker]

The Vegan and Vegetarian movements are quite well organised and their messages have become part of societal psyche, e.g. meat issues. The online film Vegan 2018 is well presented and polished.

Dr Aseem Malhortra (UK) and Dr Robert Lustig (USA) both rub shoulders with the powers that be, and have been told point blank that effectively politics (for me another word for big money) currently will block common sense changes.

What "we" could / should do is get some basics agreed such as a "body" we can all get behind, many of the low carb / keto heavyweights belong to different well meaning groups. We should learn the lesson of Judo (my wife's sport) and Karate (my sport); it is only now Karate is getting into the next Olympics, whereas Judo has been a part for over 50 years - the difference..... Judo has had minimal bodies, whereas Karate has 100's of bodies / associations, pulling is many directions, there are similarities I feel in our movement - I simply want people to know the basics such as carbs turn to sugar, how to calculate the real sugar numbers in food, fat differences etc.

I think the Public Heath Collaboration (https://phcuk.org/) is a fantastic body that could easily be scaled to go global, I would love to see this body merge with the Nutrition Coalition (https://www.nutritioncoalition.us/) and others. These could then be built on by including all of the movers and shakers e.g. Dr Fung, Ted Naimen etc. Definitions could flow and basic general advice, swaps etc. LCHF, LCHP, LC, Keto, PALEO, AIP, Atkins, WHOLE 30 IF and Fasting could all be represented; there have got to be millions of us who if just had a focal point would be powerful enough to educate and make major change. I would pay a subscription.

How about food menu options I see on some menus V = Vegetarian VE = Vegan, how about something like LC = Low Carb or K = Keto. I purposefully have not put LCHF as the food industry has done a number on Fat, so this may need to be compromised. Both LC and K would need to be broadly defined, but could include easy things such as no vegetable oil, suggested swaps for pasta, rice, potatoes, berries / cheese options etc - most places do low carb but just don't know it.

Many on this site have been in the press recently, so local initiatives are also good. I am doing what I can and have recently got the buy in of my local David Lloyd gym to give a presentation in January, also I have managed to get swaps agreed. I will be attempting to get the swaps agreed nationwide and also have their online menu drill down a little more to show the break down of carbs (https://menus.tenkites.com/davidlloyd/clubs), as this is electronic and centralised it should be easy to do.

"We" may need to be smarter, you just have to look at the coordinated recent press attacks on meat and cholesterol deniers again. How good would it have been for say 50 Dr.'s, Dieticians etc to have provided a single response to every news outlet and social media across the globe. What are you ideas to move things on, I don't want bleached meat, sweeter berries etc - just real food.

 

[Deleted Account]

I think we need to decide whether we are a diabetes community or a low carb community.
I joined because I wanted to learn from type 1 experts not diet experts.
I know low carb diets help with many people with type 2 and some with type 1.
However, I think we need to take care not to alienate people who take different approaches to manage their diabetes.
Unless we decide we are a low carb community.

 

[DCUKMod]

Personally, I think it could be more useful if food outlets could indicate the nutritional values of their dishes. That could be helpful to T1s as well as T2s or low carbers.

I doubt it will happen, in all outlets as the costs involved would be too obtrusive to small places - not to mention variable portions etc.

About the only places I find challenging to eat in are Italians, but it's never been a cuisine I'm keen on anyway.

Personally, my expectation is that I should fit into the world, not that the world should fit in with me.

 

[Mbaker]

I think we need to decide whether we are a diabetes community or a low carb community.
I joined because I wanted to learn from type 1 experts not diet experts.
I know low carb diets help with many people with type 2 and some with type 1.
However, I think we need to take care not to alienate people who take different approaches to manage their diabetes.
Unless we decide we are a low carb community.

I understand what you are saying, the site is biased (for want of better words towards lower carb methods), but I am trying to garner ideas that bigger players may run with, as the areas that can paotentially affect many are run by powerful vested interests who would like to see the likes of me in their over processed world view.

I do not want to be forced to pay more taxes for meat, I do not want lab built meat, or bleached meat, I want some bitter, I do not want to be forced to be Vegan or have school children forced to do the same; I want freedom of choice and whole foods mostly unaltered, so I need a powerful vehicle to represent those who think similarly. I am fed up of seeing known "facts" that have been disproved and in some cases pulled still being trotted out. The thrust of this thread is to get ideas.

 

[Mbaker]

Personally, I think it could be more useful if food outlets could indicate the nutritional values of their dishes. That could be helpful to T1s as well as T2s or low carbers.

I doubt it will happen, in all outlets as the costs involved would be too obtrusive to small places - not to mention variable portions etc.

About the only places I find challenging to eat in are Italians, but it's never been a cuisine I'm keen on anyway.

Personally, my expectation is that I should fit into the world, not that the world should fit in with me.

Yes I see that, but just in relation to your last sentence, on 2 occasions I have been embarrassed by the person serving me when out, I asked to swap carbs for one of their low carb menu items, if I were Vegetarian or Vegan this is already catered for on some menus. I think it is reasonable to have say asparagus or green beans in place of chips. If venues understand in general these potential changes the establishment can still make money, either by charging more or the same.

 

[Guzzler]

Given time the smaller groups of a lower carb approach proponents such as you mention will merge and evolve into a larger body just as has happened in the past when local/regional groups merged so as to become a national body. This can at times run the risk of the main body becoming a deaf Behemoth but holding the reins where lobbying for change is concerned. Having said that, I feel that a larger body made up of groups of people that are campaigning for better health overall through education about nutrition based on sound science and free from the influences of Big Food etc is a grand idea and apart from the 'fat' issue and the subscription issue I would be willing to have a look see.

As to nutritional information in general, first things first, tackle the incongruous labelling on food packaging on the shelves of our supermarkets. For example the 'Healthy Whole Grain' heart symbol on the front of a box, the saturated fat content on the back of a box and the total carbohydrate inside the box.
And how many members (including me) were bamboozled by the whole '...of which sugars' thing?

 

[DCUKMod]

Yes I see that, but just in relation to your last sentence, on 2 occasions I have been embarrassed by the person serving me when out, I asked to swap carbs for one of their low carb menu items, if I were Vegetarian or Vegan this is already catered for on some menus. I think it is reasonable to have say asparagus or green beans in place of chips. If venues understand in general these potential changes the establishment can still make money, either by charging more or the same.

We each do what suits us.

My OH is a former restaurant owner. He was an investment owner, as opposed to a chef patron owner. On that basis he wanted his establishment to deliver a quality experience for his diners, but not to become a completely short-order or again totally a la carte establishment.

Irrespective of the ingredients used, creating to individual order costs more money and is likely to increase erroneous deliveries to the table. When I asked my OH how he would have dealt with lots of subs, he responded he wouldn't have viewed it positively.

If the offering is clear, prior to order, the customer has a choice whether they order or not. In my view, a menu isn't a starting point for negotiations.

As I have said many, many times on here, I have never found myself unable to eat out and about.

 

[Mbaker]

Given time the smaller groups of a lower carb approach proponents such as you mention will merge and evolve into a larger body just as has happened in the past when local/regional groups merged so as to become a national body. This can at times run the risk of the main body becoming a deaf Behemoth but holding the reins where lobbying for change is concerned. Having said that, I feel that a larger body made up of groups of people that are campaigning for better health overall through education about nutrition based on sound science and free from the influences of Big Food etc is a grand idea and apart from the 'fat' issue and the subscription issue I would be willing to have a look see.

As to nutritional information in general, first things first, tackle the incongruous labelling on food packaging on the shelves of our supermarkets. For example the 'Healthy Whole Grain' heart symbol on the front of a box, the saturated fat content on the back of a box and the total carbohydrate inside the box.
And how many members (including me) were bamboozled by the whole '...of which sugars' thing?

Great, this is what I was trying to get at. I did think about looser arrangements like satellites. When I went to Disney World Orlando, I could not find full fat Yogurt, I have noticed every hotel I stay around once or twice a month in the UK never has full fat Yogurt either, this is what I mean about choices being stifled due to the pervasive environment perpetuated by agenda driven nonsense.

 

[Mbaker]

We each do what suits us.

My OH is a former restaurant owner. He was an investment owner, as opposed to a chef patron owner. On that basis he wanted his establishment to deliver a quality experience for his diners, but not to become a completely short-order or again totally a la carte establishment.

Irrespective of the ingredients used, creating to individual order costs more money and is likely to increase erroneous deliveries to the table. When I asked my OH how he would have dealt with lots of subs, he responded he wouldn't have viewed it positively.

If the offering is clear, prior to order, the customer has a choice whether they order or not. In my view, a menu isn't a starting point for negotiations.

As I have said many, many times on here, I have never found myself unable to eat out and about.

Just to clarify, I am talking about swaps within the same food selections. Are you sure it would cost more money to double the portion of say carrots in place of carrots and mash.

 

[Guzzler]

Great, this is what I was trying to get at. I did think about looser arrangements like satellites. When I went to Disney World Orlando, I could not find full fat Yogurt, I have noticed every hotel I stay around once or twice a month in the UK never has full fat Yogurt either, this is what I mean about choices being stifled due to the pervasive environment perpetuated by agenda driven nonsense.

Real Double cream has been difficult to find for me when out and about. I do not like black coffee and won't have squirty plastic stuff from a can or that nasty Elm Lea stuff so I go without or I go home.

 

[LooperCat]

We each do what suits us.

My OH is a former restaurant owner. He was an investment owner, as opposed to a chef patron owner. On that basis he wanted his establishment to deliver a quality experience for his diners, but not to become a completely short-order or again totally a la carte establishment.

Irrespective of the ingredients used, creating to individual order costs more money and is likely to increase erroneous deliveries to the table. When I asked my OH how he would have dealt with lots of subs, he responded he wouldn't have viewed it positively.

If the offering is clear, prior to order, the customer has a choice whether they order or not. In my view, a menu isn't a starting point for negotiations.

As I have said many, many times on here, I have never found myself unable to eat out and about.

With my food allergies (meat and dairy), let alone my eating low carb, I often have to ask to substitute foods to make a meal I can actually eat. Most places have (appeared to be) happy to cater for this, especially the small local places I tend to frequent. However, I’ve had to turn down invitations to at least three Christmas meals out, as the venues have fixed menus and won’t deviate at this very busy time of year. Understandable, but disappointing. All the vegetarian options are full of cheese, and all the vegan options are pure carb. The only one I’ve been able to go to is at a tea room with my sewing club - all the others are having afternoon tea, and they’re making me a smoked salmon and egg mayonnaise salad I’m quite happy with fish, eggs and leaves, but that’s proving to be a problem for a lot of places at this time of year!

 

[Deleted Account]

I understand what you are saying, the site is biased (for want of better words towards lower carb methods), but I am trying to garner ideas that bigger players may run with, as the areas that can paotentially affect many are run by powerful vested interests who would like to see the likes of me in their over processed world view.

I do not want to be forced to pay more taxes for meat, I do not want lab built meat, or bleached meat, I want some bitter, I do not want to be forced to be Vegan or have school children forced to do the same; I want freedom of choice and whole foods mostly unaltered, so I need a powerful vehicle to represent those who think similarly. I am fed up of seeing known "facts" that have been disproved and in some cases pulled still being trotted out. The thrust of this thread is to get ideas.

I guess I am happy with the debate regarding food options.
We all have reasons for our choice of what to eat. Over 30 years ago, I chose not to eat meat. This meant, I lived with that choice when I ate out. 30 years ago, you were lucky if there was a no meat option on the menu (and if there was it was usually veggie lasagne). It wasn’t always easy but I never starved.
There is far more variety available now without the need to significantly change a menu item. Many restaurants offer vegetables as additional sides so you can choose chips and jacket potatoes or spinach and green beans. It is not about swapping the ingredients but splitting the dish into separate portions. I assume this is easier to manage in the kitchen although it can also inflate your bill.

However, apart from the title of this thread, there has been no reference to managing diabetes; it is about food choice.
As the first comment refers to low carb, it alienates those who manage this diabetes in other ways.

 

[Mbaker]

With my food allergies (meat and dairy), let alone my eating low carb, I often have to ask to substitute foods to make a meal I can actually eat. Most places have (appeared to be) happy to cater for this, especially the small local places I tend to frequent. However, I’ve had to turn down invitations to at least three Christmas meals out, as the venues have fixed menus and won’t deviate at this very busy time of year. Understandable, but disappointing. All the vegetarian options are full of cheese, and all the vegan options are pure carb. The only one I’ve been able to go to is at a tea room with my sewing club - all the others are having afternoon tea, and they’re making me a smoked salmon and egg mayonnaise salad I’m quite happy with fish, eggs and leaves, but that’s proving to be a problem for a lot of places at this time of year!

This is so unfair, 3 misses is terrible. I would have hoped knowing beforehand would have made a difference. I'm taking out a business customer to the Gordon Ramsey's Maze in London for a 7 courser, I am happy to plug them, as on 2 other occasions they have been really accommodating over the last couple of years. Whilst in the mood Harvester all over the country (UK) have been great and at the Peterborough Marriott the chef comes out to talk to me to ensure the best possible service, and if I have breakfast they cook my omelettes in butter rather than vegetable oil. Clearly "our" situations are not on the same level as say disability access.

It soon may not be choice for food establishments as over 700 persons a day are getting diagnosed mainly with Type 2, so assuming some eat out and a proportion may do dietary control, eating venues will need to respond at some point.

 

[Guzzler]

Well, if and when I see a sign saying 'Low Carb Options Available On Request' I shall give the establishment my custom whether I'm hungry or not.

 

[Resurgam]

I pointed out that a recipe's nutritional values were wrong and got a very rude and disparaging response, which was good - it means that they are becoming sensitive to all the criticism.
I have asked about having a meal without the high carb foods, and could I substitute veges and salad - some places have been most obliging so I ordered, and others were not willing to 'be messed about' - so I thanked them politely and left, or had a cup of coffee, and then left.

 

[Mbaker]

I guess I am happy with the debate regarding food options.
We all have reasons for our choice of what to eat. Over 30 years ago, I chose not to eat meat. This meant, I lived with that choice when I ate out. 30 years ago, you were lucky if there was a no meat option on the menu (and if there was it was usually veggie lasagne). It wasn’t always easy but I never starved.
There is far more variety available now without the need to significantly change a menu item. Many restaurants offer vegetables as additional sides so you can choose chips and jacket potatoes or spinach and green beans. It is not about swapping the ingredients but splitting the dish into separate portions. I assume this is easier to manage in the kitchen although it can also inflate your bill.

However, apart from the title of this thread, there has been no reference to managing diabetes; it is about food choice.
As the first comment refers to low carb, it alienates those who manage this diabetes in other ways.

It is challenging covering the bases as I have effectively been between Paleo with dairy and Keto for over 3 years, so do see things through this prism. It is difficult to create a thread if offence is inadvertently automatically a by product, unfortunately the articulated use of language is not a strong point of mine. When I was constructing this thread the 2 organisations mentioned do have wide agendas that encompass education and choice and definitely Type 1 issues, I selected an area that I am real-time having some success in as an example.

I hope you can understand that other methods of dietary choices a low carber can at best have respect for, but would have genuine difficulties covering.

I have big issues with the almost begging some Type 1's in the UK have to go through to get CGM's, I would much rather persons like Dr Unwin, Dr Zoe Harcombe PHD were on boards who basically said every CCG has to offer these / Libres, G6's etc to assist with the management of Type 1 or insulin dependent Type 2's, how can it be called a National Health System when differences exist.

I have also created threads on this site which detail my disappointment in my industry (IT) at not making things even easy for Type 1's quick enough. I am not quite sure most persons realise how much compute power we have at our finger tips, systems are just waiting for the data to run all sorts of models. I know again a lot of good work is going on at institutions, but I agree with recent petitions that Type 1 should have more focused efforts.

 

[Mbaker]

I pointed out that a recipe's nutritional values were wrong and got a very rude and disparaging response, which was good - it means that they are becoming sensitive to all the criticism.
I have asked about having a meal without the high carb foods, and could I substitute veges and salad - some places have been most obliging so I ordered, and others were not willing to 'be messed about' - so I thanked them politely and left, or had a cup of coffee, and then left.

It's these type of situations I would like to try to have mitigated, when I had around 5 people in a queue behind me wanting to place food and drink orders, whist the till assistance left her post to find
out if I could swap an item, the situation was quite embarrassing, as the "weight" /pressure of the queue behind me was palpable.

 

[kitedoc]

One difficulty which I picked up from a review of low carb/high fat diet vs low fat diets is low carb/high fat diet can have different definitions: such as <120 g carbs per day vs say, < 40g carbs per day. I stick at present nearer the 100 g carbs /day.
But any banding together to form say, a low carb/high fat coalition, needs to account for possible differences of benefit vs little benefit within those gradations. nbci.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5959976/
Add to that that I have not seen any factoring in of the difference in gut biome between individuals and groups of individuals on various diets. As basic research of non-diabetic individuals has shown BSL responses to various foods varies greatly depending on gut biome.wis-wander.weisman.ac.il/../life-sciences/blood-sugar-levels-response-foods-are-highly-individual?
I am intolerant to cow's milk protein so whilst I can order a cappuccino with soy, at a Xmas luncheon I have to pick out the cheese and tend to avoid the bread - unless someone has gone to the trouble and expense to use goat's cheese or buffalo mozzarella. And I am a little dismayed at the so-called advantages of vegan diets as one risks developing vitamin B 12 deficiency over time un less the vegan includes a pharmaceutical sources of B12 in is/her diet..
Until the research is clearer and more data is available any coalition of diets for diabetes management may not be on firm enough footing - just my thoughts - as the current research talks about the reported difficulty of staying on low carb/high fat diets for long periods of time and that weight loss by any diet is the common denominator in any successful diet for diabetes.
Please do not shoot the messenger - I am still trying to find clear research results from DDM's low carb high fat program for example, beyond the rhetoric.

 

[DCUKMod]

Just to clarify, I am talking about swaps within the same food selections. Are you sure it would cost more money to double the portion of say carrots in place of carrots and mash.

Costs aren't always in terms of ingredients. Costs are also in time spent recording and clarifying orders, both at the table and in the kitchen, and so on.

 

[DCUKMod]

With my food allergies (meat and dairy), let alone my eating low carb, I often have to ask to substitute foods to make a meal I can actually eat. Most places have (appeared to be) happy to cater for this, especially the small local places I tend to frequent. However, I’ve had to turn down invitations to at least three Christmas meals out, as the venues have fixed menus and won’t deviate at this very busy time of year. Understandable, but disappointing. All the vegetarian options are full of cheese, and all the vegan options are pure carb. The only one I’ve been able to go to is at a tea room with my sewing club - all the others are having afternoon tea, and they’re making me a smoked salmon and egg mayonnaise salad I’m quite happy with fish, eggs and leaves, but that’s proving to be a problem for a lot of places at this time of year!

Mel - I do sympathise with your challenges with so many intolerances and allergies - never mind preferences. It certainly can't be easy on set menu occasions.