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Does Whole Food Plant Based Diet truly cure diabetes?

Discussion in 'Vegetarian Diet Forum' started by Cocosilk, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. Cocosilk

    Cocosilk Gestational · Well-Known Member

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    As this guy claims he has seen? And claims he has experienced a better glucose tolerance since changing from Paleo, then low carb, then keto and now whole foods plant based diet?

    I'm having dilemmas eating keto, which I started about 6 months ago while still pregnant and diagnosed with gestational diabetes.
    While breastfeeding it seems more of the advice is to keep a few carbs in your diet and frankly I find it hard to stay hydrated on keto even though I prefer how my stomach feels without all the bloat from fibre.
    My follow-up GTT revealed a better fasting (4.4 down from 5.1) but an increased 1h (12.1 up from 9.7 mmol) and now whenever I eat the smallest amount of carbs, the spike seems unreasonably high for what I've eaten.

    I doubt I will be able to quit all meat to try an only plant based diet but I'm just wondering if anyone has before and after blood test results that show you can improve glucose tolerance eating this way and actually be able to eat higher amounts of carbs (from fruit, vegetables, legumes and possibly grains) and not just improve your blood sugar averages while avoiding carbs on a keto diet.

    Or is this guy overreacting about his keto-induced physiological insulin resistance and glucose intolerance because as a T1 diabetic, he may have been insulin sensitive and just found it a shock to have a sudden insulin resistance and considered it metabolic damage when really it seemed to only take him 48 hours for it to reverse when he moved to a plant based diet.
    He just claims he can now eat an even higher amount of carbs now.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bo...t/news-story/f33660a184cee7b32bc609de8261aa27
     
    #1 Cocosilk, Aug 4, 2019 at 3:17 PM
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  2. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Um... you know this article is about a T1 who injects insulin to cover his carb intake?
    And that he is talking exclusively from his personal experience - except for a rather odd last paragraph in which he makes the following unsubstantiated claims:

    The good news is, there's another way! Type 2 diabetes can absolutely be reversed and cured. I’ve seen it done over and over again on a whole-food plant-based approach. Patients are achieving non-diabetic HbA1c results, stable blood glucose levels, normal insulin levels, and are coming off all medication - all while eating unrefined healthy carbohydrates. In my eyes, that is the true reversal of type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance.

    He gives no references, and no indication of what constitutes a ‘cure’, except that he thinks it means you can eat carbs.

    His logic seems most bizarre, and looks like this:
    - I’m a T1 and I tried keto.
    - it didn’t work for me.
    - so i switched diets and have spent 4 months eating whole foods plant based vegan, and I feel better
    - so it must be better for T2s too
    - and anyway, keto doesn’t CURE T2
    - and I have ‘seen’ people reverse and cure T2 on WFPB vegan (no references, you note)

    We have seen these claims crop up again and again, but the references (if anyone can be persuaded to post them) always lead back to some rather questionable research that is nowhere near as rigorous as the work by Virta and Professor ‘Newcastle Diet’ Taylor.

    And remember, claims of ‘reversal’ and ‘cures’ are internet click bait. Actually producing the evidence (which this guy doesn’t even attempt to try), is much more difficult.

    My advice to you, @Cocosilk would be to do some reading on physiological insulin resistance.
    It will give you a much better understanding than that article, of why your body has slightly higher carb reactions than you used to get while eating carbs.

    Edited for several typos.
     
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    #2 Brunneria, Aug 4, 2019 at 3:37 PM
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  3. NoCrbs4Me

    NoCrbs4Me I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why this guy was eating carbs while on a keto diet. It makes no sense to me. Maybe that's why his keto diet wasn't working.
     
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  4. Cocosilk

    Cocosilk Gestational · Well-Known Member

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    I'm still waiting to see the evidence from those who claim a plant based diet reversed their diabetes.
     
  5. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Yes, the most I have seen so far is that weight loss (in some people) increases carb tolerance to the point where they can tolerate the carbs present in a WFPB (vegan) diet.

    I added the (vegan) part to that sentence because when I was eating very low carb, I was avoiding processed foods, and eating a heck of a lot more whole foods from plants than I was eating animal foods. So I guess I was WFPB for quite a while. It is a very loose term, but in the OP article he specifies no animal products, which would make his regime vegan.
     
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  6. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it reversed my husband's T2, but I know his bloods are in the high 30's, very low 40's when he has his HbA1C done these days. He takes a small amount of metformin but he wouldn't claim he's cured; just stable and happy and if he's happy, so am I.

    This is anecdotal and I don't for one moment say that because it works for him it will work for anyone else.

    I'm T1, so the fact I'm vegan with bloods consistently in the 30's doesn't count. I would say it took some doing to get them there! I started off - as do all T1's - with alarmingly high sugars, but I have come down to being a stable 36-40. But, I am on insulin so it is irrelevant to T2's.

    If you really want to know if it will work for you, all I can suggest is that you give it a serious go. Keto plant based is more than possible - it does done by @Mel dCP and others. There are websites, recipe books and a Facebook group.
     
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  7. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Expert
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    Purely as a matter of interest, how long has your husband been full veggie, WuTwo. I have it in my mind that he was a near-veggie, with some meat eating? Of course, I could be muddled in my dotage.
     
  8. Walking Girl

    Walking Girl Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I eat WFPB. At diagnosis my A1c was 11.9%, it’s now 4.8%, with very little glucose variability. I also lost 92 lbs and maintain a BMI of 22. My C Peptide test showed my insulin production firmly in the normal range.

    I didn’t read the article, honestly.

    Do I think some people, those who for whatever reason can reduce this insulin resistance dramatically and still have a decent amount of insulin production can maintain good control without LCHF or Keto? Yes, I do. Who can is highly individual. I eat the dreaded “carbs”, but I keep them “high quality”, meaning vegetables, true whole grains and legumes. I eat roughy what would be called a Mediterranean diet - 40% carbs, 20% protein and 40% fat. On rare occasion when I indulge in a higher carb meal, or even a sugary dessert, my BG stays normal.

    I think people can achieve the same with LCHF (well, except the normal BG with a high carb meal...). I think you have to decide what makes you feel best. A true LCHF diet was less than ideal for me, as I am a vegetarian and wanted to remain one, but I’ve also never been a big fan of eggs or dairy. Though for the record, my diet was not good (at all!) prior to diagnosis. It was vegetarian, but a tons of highly processed foods, both high carb and high fat. Anyway, I also did most definitely experience the “physiological IR” when I tried LCHF and my fasting number was definitely higher on that plan.

    Am I happy with the foods I eat and do I feel good? Yes! Do my medical test come out good. Yes! Am I cured? No! Not I’m my opinion anyway. I clearly have a high propensity towards insulin resistance unless I keep the diet and exercise top notch.
     
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    #8 Walking Girl, Aug 4, 2019 at 8:25 PM
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  9. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    He was - he ate sandwich ham, or sliced stuff (not chops, or joints of beef, pork pieces or chicken pieces, or bacon etc) - the sort of meat that goes in a sandwich at lunch. He also used to eat fish a couple of times a week. Not often because he's been gradually going off stuff for a long time now. I always termed him flexi because of that.

    He made the change a couple of months ago - no meat or fish but he still eats cheese, and until a few months ago he'd eat the occasional egg. We haven't had dairy milk for ages and anyway he doesn't use it. But cheese - yes! (Macaroni cheese, or cheese on toast etc). No effect on his latest HbA1C which was still in the high 30's, and his weight is stable.
     
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  10. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Expert
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    That's good to hear. When was his latest A1c, in terms of the full veggie living?

    For transparency, I'm not veggie/vegan, but if someone were to find they could garner all the required nutrients and maintain good blood work (A1c et al.) on a full Smarie diet, that's fine by me.
     
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  11. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I know his was 3 above mine. Mine (hastily looking it up) was 36. Therefore, with brilliant maths abilitites - his was 39.

    I would point out several thing - he doesn't like sweets, biscuits, cakes, jam etc. He doesn't drink alcohol for personal reasons, and he doesn't eat fruit. We both stuff ourselves silly on veg and salad, and we like legumes, beans, seitan, tofu etc. Our diet isn't a high carb one by any means at all - I aim at 120g and I'd be surprised if he ate more carb than that.

    What's a Smarie diet?
     
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  12. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Expert
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    Apologies, it seems my post wasn't at all clear.

    My query about your husband's last A1c should have asked how long your husband had been full veggie (i.e., no meat or other non-veggie products) at the time he had his last A1c test.

    My reference to Smarties was saying, I respect people's dietary choices, and that if a member (more reasonably a T2, more tethered to dietary choices that many T1s) found their diabetes was well controlled by eating lots of the confectionary item, Smarties, then that was fine by me.

    Not one of my finer posts, by a long way. :( I have shingles at the moment, so I'll blame that!
     
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  13. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    @DCUKMod - Aha! I'm with you now.

    Two months full veggie, one month before that increasingly just cheese and a few months before that with fish about twice a week, and sandwich meats on his oat crackers (although he prefers cheese/coleslaw/salad. We haven't had eggs in the house for a long time, nor milk. He buys dog meat for our two dogs but we haven't had actual chunks of flesh for eating by humans in the house for a good 8 to 10 months (although I would never say anything if he did want to eat meat) He says he won't go actual vegan because of the cheese and I wouldn't dream of pushing it. Has to be his choice.

    He doesn't eat pudding except we both love vegan ice cream. He doesn't know it but I carb count for both of us and take account of ice cream in the total carbs for dinner.

    Like I say though - we do in fact eat a very carb controlled diet of about 120g per day - it's just that it's vegan/veggie. And he does still take his metformin. Does all that make sense? I have a feeling I'm only vaguely coherent this afternoon...

    I'm sorry about the shingles - awful, awful thing to come down with!
     
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  14. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    so as low carb is anything under 130g of carbs a day, your husband is a successfully controlled low carb vegetarian. That is very good to know.

    can you remember his HbA1c on diagnosis and how long ago his diagnosis was please?

    I am exploring if there could be a relationship between how severe type 2 was on diagnosis and the amount of carbs one eats to have good control of blood sugars. My research is still in the early stages yet, but every bit of info helps.
     
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  15. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    This is all helpful to me. Can you give me an idea of how many carbs in grams 40% carbs would be for you please, and how long since you were diagnosed with T2? I cant remember if you said you had also lost weight?

    I am trying to compile some ideas about length since diagnosis, initial HbA1c and carb levels to successfully manage our condition..
     
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  16. Sapien

    Sapien Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    A key point in the article is that saturated fat, especially in high quantity, tends to worsen insulin resistance and increases cholesterol. (Butter, coconut oil, bacon, seen to be staples on standard keto.) Avocado, nuts, olives and extra virgin olive oil don’t seem to have the same level of negative effect. I have heard many say that just swapping olive oil for butter has a positive effect.

    The author doesn’t speak to just how big his blood sugar swings are eating high carb. It isn’t surprising that he needs less insulin per carb. One would think that matching insulin to carbs well would be harder on high carb, but with low protein and low fat there my be fewer confounding variables. His experience is also influenced by his leanness, muscular fitness and likely high level of exercise. The muscles can store a lot more glycogen than the liver.

    I find blood sugar stays at the lowest fasting and then in the narrowest range during the day when eating moderate low carbs (non-starchy veggies, hummus, berries, etc), high protein with limited saturated fat (salmon, sardines, lean chicken/beef, pea protein, hemp seeds, etc.) and moderate high mostly plant fat (avocado, nuts, olives, olive oil, etc) as well as oily fish and the fat in lean meat.

    I seem to be able to stay in a range of about 81 (4.5) fasting to maximum 105 (5.8) at 1-2 hours after meals eating lowish carb (150 grams per day or so). Personally I find limiting carbs at breakfast helpful since carbs seem to raise my blood sugar more in the morning than later in the day.
     
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  17. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    This thread seems to indicate that there is a large variation in how many carbs a T2 can eat and still maintain good blood sugar levels.

    I suggest that its not the make up of the diet: Carnivore, Vegetarian, Whole Food Plant Based etc which is the deciding factor. The deciding factor is the amount of carbs an individual can safely eat. Some diets lend themselves to fewer carbs, thus being a preferred option for those who need to eat very low carb amounts.

    And a big difference is what type of diabetes someone has, and the medications they may or may not be on. Something not addressed in the title of this thread. I can only speak from a T2 diet controlled perspective.

    I cant eat nuts or seeds thus making my diet choice more restricted than some. We are all individuals, so claiming a certain diet will cure all is just not possible.
     
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  18. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    I agree.

    There is going to be a vast difference in carb tolerance between someone who is pre-diabetic, fully T2 with high insulin resistance, and another who is T2 in remission with a liver and pancreas that have ‘come back online’.
     
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  19. Walking Girl

    Walking Girl Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I generally eat around 200g carbs per day, but in a review of MyFitnessPal looks like it’s been around 170ish lately with more fat instead. I track because it’s what keeps me honest about how mich I eat, but I honestly don’t count carbs - I just avoid certain foods (any highly processed food of any type, all breads, pasta, rice, and white potatoes mainly)

    Anyway, yes, I lost 92 lbs, but about 40 of that was before diagnosis. No doubt somewhat fueled by my high BGs in retrospect, but I was trying to lose weight so I didn’t notice. I got the bad news in late November, 2017. My weight has been stable since May, 2018.

    Good luck figuring out the connection if there is one. One weird piece of info for you, I never saw high fasting numbers. Mine dropped like stone immediately. My first week with a meter, on 500mg Metformin, and cutting the carbs way down, I was in the 110-115 range, 100-110 in week 2, and under 100 ever since...not typical, as I’m sure you know.
     
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  20. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Would be nice if he had posted his CGM data so that we can see the tradeoff... Flatline vs Flexibility(Carbs/Insulin Ratio)...
     
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