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Does Whole Food Plant Based Diet truly cure diabetes?

Discussion in 'Vegetarian Diet Forum' started by Cocosilk, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I think the answer lies here...
    "I dropped my fat intake from 75% of daily energy to between 15-20%. I removed all animal foods and oils from my diet. I focused on eating healthy fats from avocados, nuts, and seeds. I also added whole grains and legumes back into my diet (both of which I hadn’t eaten in nearly seven years since following a paleo approach) and an abundance of all types of fruits. Within 48 hours my insulin sensitivity started to return to normal. Within 1-2 weeks my carbohydrate intake was the highest it had been since being diagnosed with diabetes, and my insulin use dropped dramatically."

    If the damages to insulin sensitivity from 7 years of paleo/keto is permanent...don't think it would have been easily recoverable...are nerves and microvascular damages from high glucose excursions as easily recoverable?
     
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  2. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Actually he didn't say that it didn't work for him...it did...
    upload_2019-8-6_12-11-27.png

    He basically felt that he should be able to eat carbs as before he went keto...he interpreted the change in insulin sensitivity as becoming type 2...a frightening prospect...

    upload_2019-8-6_12-12-7.png

    Perhaps that's really how our body works. It can use either carbs or ketones efficiently, but not both at the same time...it is like pumping a mix of diesel and petrol...we can't have the best of both world.

    He says he is not promoting anything...
    upload_2019-8-6_12-19-57.png
    But he promotes this...
    upload_2019-8-6_12-21-8.png
     
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  3. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    My husband was diagnosed some 10 or 12 years ago, maybe a little more. He had an HbA1C of about 12 at that time (in old money) and was put on metformin immediately and told to lose weight. I was already T1 and was carb counting if not controlling.

    We decided to carb control in a very gentle way to see if it did anything for him, and it did. Neither of us wanted to try keto - both of us thought there should be a way that didn't involve changing our diet beyond recognition. In the event, we added a lot more salad and veg which lead to a reduction in stodge intake (no room in the tummy for stodge if you make it a habit to eat a couple of extra portions of different veggies with the meal). Then we added more stir frys and got hold of a few good veggie and vegan recipe books with things he liked the look of, which meant a further reduction in carbs without any apparent effect on taste or food satisfaction. We both really like cooking, which helps a lot and makes life much cheaper. He is retired and I am part time - we are careful with money these days.

    It works for him but like I say, he still takes his metformin (albeit a low dose) and I wouldn't dream of saying it would work for anyone else. We're all different in our body's make-up and needs.
     
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  4. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    And home made seitan! A total life saver. High protein, low cal, low carb (depending on the recipe used - there are lots).

    Also, tofu - gorgeous scrambled with kala namak. Again, high protein, low carb, low cal.

    The essence of tasty veggie or vegan cooking is flavouring. I use literally dozens more herbs and spices than I did before I changed. I have two shelves full of the jars. I learned to love marinades, and learning how flavours go together in the absence of the over-powering meat flavours.
     
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  5. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    So the crux of his argument is that insulin resistance, as measured by carbs/insulin dosage ratio is the real issue...

    Not the carbs induced glucose spikes, not the chronically high insulin levels... which carbs reduction/keto directly address... In his view glucose flatlining is not healthy in the long term...

    upload_2019-8-6_17-5-11.png
     
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  6. jimmyt1988

    jimmyt1988 · Member

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    I'm on a whole food plant based diet for 3 years now.

    I am type 1 diabetic.

    Albeit my blood sugars being incredibly easy to manage, I am not cured.

    But yes, the diet makes my management rather easy and predictable and I suppose I feel healthier for it. At around 2 months in, I had a large reduction in insulin requirement and that has remained reduced over the 3 years. I suppose because the foods aren't filled with complex carbs (I don't know). It also helps me maintain a sensible weight. And it's good for the environment. I recommend it if you are struggling.

    Hope that helps.
     
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    #26 jimmyt1988, Aug 6, 2019 at 11:09 AM
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  7. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, that info is helpful. Interesting about your fasting numbers.
     
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  8. Walking Girl

    Walking Girl Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Didn’t he say he reduced his insulin? What “chronically high” levels would there be if insulin is reduced?
     
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  9. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Precisely, there isn't any chronically high insulin levels for T1D, even with the increased insulin resistance induced by keto. So is the increased insulin/carbs ratio on keto dangerous...there isn't any long term study to verify that...

    But for T2D, years or decades of chronically elevated insulin is typical... hence the weight gain and all the associated increased CVD, CKD , cancer risk etc we are literally bathing in insulin all year long. Carbs reduction, keto, fasting helps to normalize that.

    The interpretation of insulin resistance makes the difference as to the perception of keto long term safety. Is insulin resistance itself dangerous or the chronically excessive insulin resulting from insulin resistance that is dangerous...

    Yes it is an eye opening account. But rather mind numbing...
     
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  10. Cocosilk

    Cocosilk Gestational · Well-Known Member

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    You're doing better than I am in that case, with your levels I mean.

    I don't think I'm eating 150g of carbs a day. I know I'm not. I did eat my first bowl of steel cut oats today to see what would happen and my spikes were 1h 6.8 mmol / 1.5h 7.7 mmol / 2h 7.2 mmol / 2.5h 5.9 mmol. An hour before eating I was 4.6 mmol. That was 250g of cooked steel cut oats. I think around half of that are carbs but not sure if cooked oats have the same carbs as the dry ones.

    I've only been adding a few extra carbs this past few days. I'm trying to work out if my insulin resistance is now due to keto or if I actually have some kind of diabetes still (I was gestationally diabetic and gave birth a few months ago.) I screwed up my postpartum GTT because I didn't carb load enough beforehand. My fasting and 2h readings were okay but my one hour was 12.1 mmol...

    I also want to try and reduce sat. fats and move to more olive, avo, and macadamia nut oils as well as fish because my cholesterol is 8.7 mmol.. Meanwhile I just ate pork belly this evening.
     
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  11. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    Do you have a breakdown of components?
     
  12. Cocosilk

    Cocosilk Gestational · Well-Known Member

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    Not yet... Haven't been back to the doctor who just wanted me on statins. Have to find a new doctor and convince them to let me do the breakdown test.

    I was watching a Ken Sikaris presentation on cholesterol.

    It's the small dense LDL, the oxidised ones that you have to watch, isn't it?

    He also talked about Lipoprotein a (little a).

    Others, like Peter Attia, think high particle count matters.

    And then I see a whole community of people on Dave Feldman's FB page LMHR Lean Mass Hyper Responders) who are proud of their sky rocketing cholesterol. And others yet who are eating steel cut oats to try and reduce it...:)

    The things that are on my side are HDL 2.89 and Trigs 0.7. So okay ratios at least.
     
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    #32 Cocosilk, Aug 7, 2019 at 3:19 PM
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  13. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Guru

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    You first need to know your cholesterol and breakdown, then you have to do the research on whether or not it matters.
     
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  14. Cocosilk

    Cocosilk Gestational · Well-Known Member

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    It's really hard to know when even the experts can't agree...
    One thing I did find out after the fact is that taking a cholesterol test 2 months after a caeserean section and while breastfeeding will most likely give an elevated result anyway, never mind keto on top of it.

    My doc was just clueless and would have me put my then 2 month old on formula so I could take a statin. Doesn't seem like the best thing for either of us but I guess until I get the breakdown of LDL and maybe an all clear on a CIMT, I could be taking a risk.
     
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  15. pixie1

    pixie1 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I developed GD in my third trimester, I received very little help and was not informed of what my levels where. Only informed of the sort of diet I should have, basically exactly the same as what I was already eating anyway. Towards the end I could only eat rice and pasta and a bit of veg. I was working in a care home and looking after my horses, I was physically active right through the day. I developed T2 about 6 years ago insulin resistant, my bloods were deranged everything was high. I did pile the weight on as I was not as active as i did not have the horses any longer.

    My story is the opposite to the person in the link, he's T1 so no comparisons there, in references and relating to T2 diabetes, is immaterial. I cannot relate to it as a T2 diabetic. If i didnt have the knoweledge of my own experience, I think I would have gone along with what was written. However for me I know differently, I dramatically changed my diet after my first my first lot of full profile blood test, everything was high. Coronary heart disease, high cholestral, ran in my family, my father had 3 heart attacks.
    I made a conscious decision to radically change my diet for my next blood test. I did a very low carb, high fat, bought myself a monitor and tested. All meats, low carb veg and fruit, eggs, fish, full fat yogurts. My tests came within the normal range even my cholesterol. I kept a diary which helped. My insulin sensitivity improved. My hba1c went from 53 on diagnosis (not that high in the grand scheme of things) to 48 within 3 months. This year its 36.
    I've had to do this without help from my diabetic nurses as they disapproved, offered no help and tried to discourage me from testing. I've put a stone on in weight, because the carbs have creeped in, my fasting tests my sensitivity reduced. I am now dealing with the issue and gone back to basics. I dare not try plant based/vegan diet.

    I'm wondering if its an individual thing depending on the individual physiological genetic make up of where individuals ancestors origins are from. For example European make up when diet was mainly meat, fat based to get them through the harsh winter environments, then just ate berries and other wild foods when conditions are right or those from the African continent who migrated around the globe whose diet was totally different more fruit/veg and fish based as that's the more the environment they adapted. With intermingling of both species of people over billions of years, this may influence how different respond to foods and how they can tolerate either a high carb or high fat diet low.

    Sorry for the long essay.
     
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  16. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    @Cocosilk

    To answer your original question.. if it did we should never see any WFPB people diagnosed withT2.

    That we do see such people here as newly diagnosed shows that it is neither a "cure" nor even a decent avoidance strategy.
     
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  17. Cocosilk

    Cocosilk Gestational · Well-Known Member

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    Do we know if flat-lining our blood sugar long term and being insulin resistant to the point that any carbs we encounter while on keto will give us damaging spikes is the best thing metabolically? I mean, I'm sure it is once you have T2 diabetes because you have already had that much insulin floating around in your body that you have to give it a break. But for someone who is insulin sensitive, is it the right thing to dampen your insulin sensitivity by removing most carbs from your diet if you think you might then want to eat a high carb meal here and there (which I am sure a young otherwise healthy person would expect to be able to do)? Maybe for him it does make more sense not to eat keto. But I guess for anyone with T2, it makes sense not to bother with carbs anymore.
     
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  18. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    @Cocosilk I’m interested in why you think carb restriction increases insulin resistance. Could you say a bit more?
     
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  19. pixie1

    pixie1 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Removing carbs does not dampen down insulin sensitivity for T2, it increases it. By not eating carbs the pancreas does not need to be overworked, basically giving it a rest as it does not need to produce insulin in high quantities, only enough to deal with low level carbs, this is were fats come into play for energy source, enabling them to be utilized instead of carbohydrates as They are now defunct in high quantities the carbs that is. Now fats are being used appropriately, reduces cholestrol, trigs and so on, reducing the markers for cvd. Fats are not solidified in the body, its the hydrogenated fats are. Some oils are not stable in high heat, in turn change to hydrogenated fat. Poor quality olive oil does, olive oil should be used for salad dressings.
    Whereas ghee, coconut oil, are fine and safely used to cook with.

    He does have an agenda in the article to promote his diet for type 2 diabetes, it's not based on his own experiences. As someone pointed out, why was he eating carbs while on keto. Also in the same token, how come, many number of T1 people have great success in there control, while doing lchf. They have been able to reduce their insulin, have fewer hypos. How can stabilised glucose levels be bad.
    There are not enough details given, in his article.
     
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  20. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    I don't understand the question.

    If you are eating keto then you aren't eating carbs in quantities to cause damaging spikes.

    Therefore your question is redundant.

    Keto is, quite simply, avoiding carbs to the point that the body runs on ketones.
    Therefore no 'damaging carb spikes' will happen.
     
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