DUK - Eating Well with T2 - DOH!!!!

veggienft

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If people required carbohydrate intake then starving people would die within a couple of days after their final meals. This doesn't happen. The starving body taps its stores of fat, plus it consumes small amounts of muscle. Starving people can live for weeks.

For a punctuation mark, if you are ever placed into the position of saving a starving person, don't feed him carbohydrates. It would likely kill him. Feed him fat and protein. Introduce carbs slowly. They are a shock to the untrained metabolism.
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esmedarling

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veggienft said:
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If people required carbohydrate intake then starving people would die within a couple of days after their final meals. This doesn't happen. The starving body taps its stores of fat, plus it consumes small amounts of muscle. Starving people can live for weeks.

For a punctuation mark, if you are ever placed into the position of saving a starving person, don't feed him carbohydrates. It would likely kill him. Feed him fat and protein. Introduce carbs slowly. They are a shock to the untrained metabolism.
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I'm new to the forum but the first paragraph is something I can attest to. After more than 45 years of disordered eating, long periods of quite severe anorexia, & sometimes bulimia, interspersed with more or less normal food intake, I'm still here. A bit of a mess but still living.

As for the deterioration in brain function, an awful lot of people will tell you that mental acuity is actually better when they're not eating very much. In retrospect I can see that carbs & sugars were the things that slowed me down, made me dim witted & feeling never quite awake.

I love some high carb foods & there are a couple I couldn't be restrained about so I'm doing without completely, but for the rest I mean to find out which I am ok with in small ammounts. I'm aiming for low carb not no carb.

It is totally bizarre to push a 'normal' general healthy eating plan at diabetics who can't eat normally because they are diabetic.
esme
 

Bluenosesol

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cugila said:
Bluenosesol stated.
It gets even more difficult when fellow diabetics who all have the same goals tell us to keep our "opinions" to ourselves.

Hi Steve.

I have just reviewed this topic and I am a little puzzled by that comment of yours. Can you point us in the direction of who actually said that ? Was it in this topic or elsewhere.

Ken, I wrote up a comprehensive response last night but it bombed out on submission, so here is a greatly abridged version.

The above "quote" is a metaphoric representation of a theme which occurs frequently on the forum.
Indeed this very string holds content which advises lo-carb advocates that they are a small group (though volumes are hugely understated) and hence they are wasting their time in attempts to influence DUK. So what are the connotations of such remarks?...clear to me!.

To be honest, my main intent has been satisfied by the attention that this topic has received and the supportive content herein. I just wanted my fellow diabetics to consider that despite a growing groundswell of contrary evidence and opinion, that one of the UK's largest diabetic advisory organisations continues to advise that the best way to control glucose in the blood, is to feed it with even more glucose producing material and at a time when Sky News reports on World Diabetes Day that 800,000 UK diabetics have life threatening loss of Blood Glucose control.

Regards Steve.

Steve.
 

cugila

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Thanks for that Steve. That clarifies it as far as I am concerned. I did think it was down to a particular member, I'm glad that is not the case.

Ken.
 

veggienft

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There are differences in operating procedures of low-carbers and non-low carbers.

Low carbing is the result of trial, observation and deduction. It stands up to scrutiny and to opposition. Low carbing does not pay bureaucrats or drug companies. Low carbing is effective against metabolic syndrome. Carb addiction causes resistance to low carbing, and resistance to effective treatment.

Discussion allows an airing of the facts. This doesn't harm people. It helps them. Squelching discussion promotes high-carb dieting. If there was no vocal opposition to low-carb dieting, we would not have this discussion, and the facts would not see the light of day.

Now ........about cancer......
..
 

ally5555

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omg - how to follow all that!

Yes Ian I know plenty of dietitians who teach carb counting / restriction - what ever it may be called will really depend upon the pt - some do not even know what a carb is!
And yes I will be telling nurse in question.

I AM LOST AS TO WHO SAID MEAT IS HIGH IN CALCIUM - I hate to tell you contains a tiny amount - about 8 m g /100g cooked wt - lean beef - the daily required is 700mg! isnt this really why one has to be so careful about the internet and cranky advice! Where did you get that info about calcium by the way!

I think that this sort of debate always get side tracked by LC any way . DNUK cannot give people individual advice that is why it is all so vague. If any HP or dietitian is giving you individual advice Graham they could be in big trouble - it is breaking the code of conduct.

The reality is that many people do not have to low carb so please accept it and move on

Low carbing is subsidised by many companies inc dear old DRb and the Atkins foundation.

However back to the theme of this I think you will find that many Dietitians do not support DMUK dietary advice . On a dietitians only forum there is a general consensus that they are out of touch with reality - encouraging sugar laden foods is a ridiculous idea but I do not think they will change their mind on this.
 

Bluenosesol

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ally5555 said:
The reality is that many people do not have to low carb so please accept it and move on

Hmmm its that theme again!!!!

Ally I dont know you well at all and I cant gleam where you are coming from based on your profile. I would be grateful if you could inform the forum of where you stand on general dietary advice and what your association with diabetes is. I am not taking a position on your stance or argument, just trying to understand context.

Regards Steve.
 

ally5555

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Hi Blue

I started posting here when I found this forum and was enraged at comments made by a few now banned posters! i have tried to explain the role of dietitians many times - some comments i read about them make me laugh as i really do not think some understand their role or what they know!

I am a dietitian with many years experience in diabetes - I am also a sports dietitian and work with alot of elite sports. In fact sport and diabetes is quite similar - the carb counting! I work for 2 GP practices and see at least 8-10 new type 2s every week

I take a moderate approach , discourage sugar! and get good results. Dietitians I know do not encorage what you read on here.

Hope that explains - i feel passionate about my job oh i am not allowed to post on the lc forum lol!
 

graham64

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Hi Ally,

I think that this sort of debate always get side tracked by LC any way .

This thread was originally posted in the Low Carb forum, if it had stayed there it would not have been sidetracked.

DNUK cannot give people individual advice that is why it is all so vague. If any HP or dietitian is giving you individual advice Graham they could be in big trouble - it is breaking the code of conduct.

Funny that, did you not analyse peoples diet on this forum and give advice. As for any advice I receive from a HP it would be conducted via PM, is this not something that you yourself have offered in the past to board members.

The reality is that many people do not have to low carb so please accept it and move on

The reality is many people do Low Carb so please accept it and move on.

Low carbing is subsidised by many companies inc dear old DRb and the Atkins foundation.
Subsidised in what way, you have said previous posts that Dr Bensteins only in it for the money so why should he give it away. This a quote from you asking about his research, so do tell us more about what you have discovered.
alot of his stuff is very anecdotal where is the research?

I am a real sceptic about him - he is supposed to be hypo all the time ?!!!!

Abit more about the Atkins foundation

The Atkins Foundation, which is not affiliated with and operates independently of Atkins Nutritionals, Inc., is governed by a board of directors lead by Veronica Atkins under the stewardship of National Philanthropic Trust, an independent public charity that manages more than $500 million in charitable assets and has disbursed more than $365 million in grants to charities around the globe.

Thanks to Phoenix for his post we can have a look at were the real moneys coming from, the study he quoted was sponsered by several food companies including the Ausralian potato giant Simplot.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 173614.htm

However back to the theme of this I think you will find that many Dietitians do not support DMUK dietary advice . On a dietitians only forum there is a general consensus that they are out of touch with reality - encouraging sugar laden foods is a ridiculous idea but I do not think they will change their mind on this.

On the theme of Dietitians as you may recall in my last post which you did not comment upon we have:
Dr Sarah Schenker, one of the UK’s leading dieticians, gives her top diabetes diet tips

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Diabetes/P ... betes.aspx

Kind Regards
Graham
 

Bluenosesol

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ally5555 said:
Hi Blue

I started posting here when I found this forum and was enraged at comments made by a few now banned posters! i have tried to explain the role of dietitians many times - some comments i read about them make me laugh as i really do not think some understand their role or what they know!

I am a dietitian with many years experience in diabetes - I am also a sports dietitian and work with alot of elite sports. In fact sport and diabetes is quite similar - the carb counting! I work for 2 GP practices and see at least 8-10 new type 2s every week

I take a moderate approach , discourage sugar! and get good results. Dietitians I know do not encorage what you read on here.

Hope that explains - i feel passionate about my job oh i am not allowed to post on the lc forum lol!

Ally, thank you for the response. Much appreciated.

Steve.
 

ally5555

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Graham - if any HP is offering you advice via pm without seeing you and not having access to your medical records it is breaking many codes of conduct. Dietitians can only give general advice and that is all I can do. I can only give very general advice and not treat individuals via pm - tbh it would be a very foolish move by any HP as you really do not know who you are talking too.
When i analysed the food diaries I just pointed out what was deficient! And it was actually quite alot - I dont have the results on my laptop.
It was quite interesting that most had very poor intakes of fat - something that may suprise many who think they are consuming a high fat diet. I think it would be an idea for many LC to get their diets analysed using Uk food tables - again I have said this before.

Sarah Schenker is very well regarded , she was the original dietitian who did the Fit Club on ITV - again the advice is very general and unlike lc advice from say Dr b and Atkins, does advice seeing a dietitian for individual advice - lc websites are very prescriptive - one size fits all takes no account of individual requirements.

It is true I am not a LC advocate but a mod approach based upon the individual. I am keen to look at whether the type of diet started and when has an effct on control. Or by who - you know that I feel alot of other HP should not be giving advice as they do not have a depth of knowledge!

If the thread was posted on the lc site then you are right it would have not had the response partly because anyone who objects to lc is not allowed to respond.

graham - it is very innocent to think those low carb companies are not making money!
 

phoenix

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Graham, you are selective once more and obviously have little understanding of the funding of a project, the piece of research you refer to is just that, a piece of research by scientists.It's main funders were the National Heart Foundation of Australia and the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia.

various food companies donated foods for the study. The foods were needed as this was needed as providing them was a way of keeping the integrity of the diets, as you must by now realise any research into diets is beset with the problem of adherance(maybe you think the researchers should 'grow their own) The firm you refer to not only has large interests in fruit and veg, they are virtually all aspects of beef production !

Bluenoseol,
I'm sorry for the diversion to your thread .
Your original phrase about sugary foods really has to be taken within the context of the whole advice. I agrre that as written, particularly in the online version it gives the wrong impresion. I can see where they are coming from.
1)A maximum of 10% of diet to be added sugar is given by the FSA as 'allowable'. This is much less than eaten in the 'average' diet. A recent study in the UK found that amongst overweight people ' underestimated the amount of sugar they consumed each day; those who ate the most consumed as much as 207g a day - that's nearly 52 spoonfuls and four times the recommended daily limit - hidden in everyday foods'

2) It says may.. it neither prescribes nor proscribes. Many, (most) peoples reaction to forbidden foods will be to stop eating them for a while, then break their diet and binge. (just read the Christmas thread or various threads on 'falling off the wagon'. The organisation is suggesting lifestyle changes to be part of everyday life.
3)Some sugar, as part of a mixed meal will not have the quite the same effect on glycaemia as if eaten by itself or as drunk in the form of sugary bevarages. Quite frequently other parts of the meal or the manufacturing process lower the GI.(amazingly Frosties have a relatively low Gi, a reaon to use common sense with GI tables)
The detailed advice says
Limit sugar and sugary foods
This does not mean you need to eat a sugar-free diet. Sugar can be used in foods and in baking as part of a healthy diet. Using sugar-free, no added sugar or diet fizzy drinks/squashes, instead of sugary versions can be an easy way to reduce the sugar in your diet.
4) Having said that, I feel that they should make clear that calories from added sugar are 'empty' and contain no value in the diet and that the 10% is better as an occasional rather than an everyday part of the diet.
5) The advice was written before the American Heart organisation changed their advice in August. They have changed from the 10% to no more than 100 calories a day (6 teaspoons.. compared with the average American of 22 teaspoons or 355 calories). Given the international nature of dietary guidelines, perhaps the FSA and subsequently Diabetes UK will revise their guidelines.

Finally, as an aside, and a way of explanation. As Ally says there are some ex members of this forum that caused animosity on here, one of whom continues to take postings out of context, quoting them and resorting to mockiery on a blog site. This is a form of cyberbullyiing and is very upsetting and disturbing.Even in this thread there was a veiled reference to the perpetrator.
That is why people perhaps become rather 'touchy' in their responses and I'm sorry for how that effects discusions still.
 

ally5555

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Phoenix = I always enjoy your posts.

If DM uk do not remove this reference to sugar I will be very disappointed. They have awful meal plans on their site which really wind me up. They appear to encourage sugar every day , plus the portion sizes are also inconsistent. I spoke to them and felt angry.
 

Dillinger

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phoenix said:
An Aunt Sally don't you think? make up something to argue about!
who was it that suggested that there might be a problem with glucose or HbA1cs in the 5's?

Blimey; turn my head for a moment and World War III breaks out.

So Phoenix,

Let’s have a look at what IanD said; he phoned DUK and spoke to a ‘techie’. She said, and I quote, “BS & HBA of 5.0-6.5 would be satisfactory and NOT cause brain malfunction”. Look at those words; “brain malfunction” – what on Earth is that about?

I have personally been told on more than one occasion that having an HbA1c in the low 6’s is ‘too low’. We then always get the scratched record on here about how the brain needs carbohydrate therefore one must eat sufficient carbs to supply those needs. That, of course, entirely disregards gluconeogenesis; which makes the need for dietary carbohydrate redundant.

There is a clear implication then from Ian’s conversation that beyond those levels, well, thar be dragons and possibly brain malfunction too. Your study is rather thrilling but says nothing about carbohydrate and ‘brain malfunction’. To quote you “at full term there was no effect on working memory or processing speed”. So, I would suggest that you are using an off topic study so as to criticise me for putting up an Aunt Sally argument. Nice.

Essentially though the point of this thread is that the DUK advice on diet is not good advice; I’m assuming that you and others who are arguing your side on this thread are saying that it is. That’s fine; but let’s be clear about that. You’ve made a choice and that’s good; but let’s help people new to this to understand that there is a choice to be made and not just an orthodoxy to be followed.

Dillinger
 

phoenix

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Dillinger,
I'd be interested to see her 'brain malfunction' studies though. I'd also be interested to see the Loch Ness Monster, I fear though that neither of them exist
Dillinger, you asked...I answered, giving reference to a recent and well conducted study, if you read the discusion section it gives a very balanced view. I could have given far more references to the short term effects of carbohydrates on brain function (both too too much and too little, both detrimental and benficial) but didn't; suggesting that you do your own research.
I felt and still feel that the subject had been introduced to steer the subject into a more controversial area that wasn't the original purpose of the thread.. My answer above is very much what I would have written had thread been kept 'on topic'.
Perhaps, I didn't write clearly. I neither totally supported nor totally condemned DUKs advice.I suggested an explanation as to why they might have given that advice.
This idea of taking 'sides' is ridiculous, why perpetuate it?
There is no right or wrong diet but some people may be persuaded to adopt a diet that is less than adequate for their overall health. Take calcium, something that has been brought up in this discussion already. The needs of an older man who has spent a lifetime weight bearing, would be very different to those of a young woman still in the process of peak bone formation. The former might be able to get away with a diet low in calcium, the latter may suffer in her middle and old age as a result of an inadequate intake earlier.(the incidence of osteoporotic fractures in women with long term diabetes is extremely high anyway)
I quite agree that an Hb A1c of 6% is fine, I'm happy with mine which is lower.On the other hand, from personal experience, I do think that those in the 4s may have some dangers,(for type 1s like yourself) but that is a subject for another thread.
 

hanadr

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Ally
Have you read Dr Bernstein's book?
Where is the evidence that he's subsidising low carbing?
Dr Bernstein is a T1 diabetic of about 50 years duration. You are not diabetic at all as I understand it.
At first, Bernstein evolved his care plan for himself and it was on the back of that, that he re-trained as a doctor. [He was originally an engineer] Having found his care plan to be beneficial to himself, he then expanded it to include patients and by word of mouth, originally, it GREW. patients who were not doing well improved.
Is it any wonder that patients flock to his advice?
I know it's anecdotal, but I've become friends with David Mendosa, who writes that huge website. He was doing pretty well on a low GI diet, but changed to low carb and is off all medication and has got very slim and fit.[He's in his 70s!] He knows why he made the switch, not all that long after he lost his wife to complications of diabetes.
So far no-one has been able to show me a properly constituted study which shows that ANY carbohydrate food is essential. I know you worry about calcium, but there's loads in cheese and here in most of Britain[admittedly not in Walees] there's more than enough in the water supply.
 

ally5555

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hi hana

No I am not a diabetic but probably talk in person to more diabetics than any one on here !

Dr B is selling books etc - where do his profits go - I am asking this as a question - has anyone seen his accounts?

There is not enough research either way of controlling BS - we need some good research now. Anecdotal evidence is not good enough , we dont have any data on actual carb intakes, fall out rates , time on low carb etc.

This whole argument on carbs is an interesting one - one of the interesting things here is that maybe you can survive on protein as an individual - I think some can ( I cannot). However just look at the bigger picture we could not feed every human being on protein - and maybe that is how we have evolved and adapted.

Have a trawl through sports journals - carbs are a hot topic in glycogen turnover and replacement. sportsmen fail to build muscle without carbs as they use protein as fuel.

hana we have the best cheese in Wales but so many low carbers do not eat it . I have to say when i analysed those diaries i was appalled at what people were eating and how deficient some of them were. I guess many are supplementing so will not get problems. Even Drb encourages their use , he sells his own
 

hanadr

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Ally
I LOVE Welsh goats cheese. It's your water that's deficient in calcium.
It would be difficult to see Dr B's accounts, not being the US- IRS, however, Doctors in the USA all make loads of money.
Howeer look at the Bernstein Website. The vast majority of people there are delighted with his methods. THey WORK!!
I only met 1 dietician, regarding my diabetes and , Frankly, she was an idiot. I don't imply that all dieticians are, but she certainly was.Have you read the Neilson research? and the Israeli stuff. Both long term studies on low carbs?
And There is NO evidence anywhere that low carb is harmful. that recent mouse thing was a FARCE.
If you know of any studies which have valid evidence against low carbs, or for essential carbs, please send me the references so I can evaluate for myself.
Hana
 

Bluenosesol

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Hey guys,

I live in the wider Birmingham area where Severn Trent pipe their water from the Elan Valley in Wales. Would the calicum be input at the Brummy end or are we also deficient in Calcium? :shock:

Steve.
 

graham64

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Hi again Ally'

Graham - if any HP is offering you advice via pm without seeing you and not having access to your medical records it is breaking many codes of conduct. Dietitians can only give general advice and that is all I can do. I can only give very general advice and not treat individuals via pm - tbh it would be a very foolish move by any HP as you really do not know who you are talking too.
I would not expect anything other than general advice Ally.
.
And it was actually quite alot - I dont have the results on my laptop.
It was quite interesting that most had very poor intakes of fat - something that may suprise many who think they are consuming a high fat diet. I think it would be an idea for many LC to get their diets analysed using Uk food tables - again I have said this before.

That's another problem with DUK/NHS dietary advice, besides the eat plenty-of starchy carbs, the other main point that is stressed is the Low fat options which can also be very high in carbs. We are bombarded by the fat is bad for you theme by the media and DUK/NHS, so I just wonder how many non lowcarbers have a poor intake of fat, if as I suspect they are sticking by the L/F dietary guidelines. Perhaps you should be analysing more of these diets I'm sure you will find just as many if not more lacking in nutrients.


Sarah Schenker is very well regarded , she was the original dietitian who did the Fit Club on ITV - again the advice is very general and unlike lc advice from say Dr b and Atkins, does advice seeing a dietitian for individual advice - lc websites are very prescriptive - one size fits all takes no account of individual requirements.

The advice from Sarah Schenker is still the same check the NHS link I gave this is what you'll find.

Eat plenty of starchy carbohydrates

Returning to the money making side of diets it's not all one way traffic Ally, why vilify Dr Bernstein and others, when Sarah Schenker is doing exactly the same.

If you would prefer a more personal 'one to one' service you can book a half hour phone Dietetic Consultation with Sarah. Members receive a special reduced rate. Read more about the membership benefits For Her and For Him or Sign up now.

I've omitted the link because it may go against forum rules.

It is true I am not a LC advocate but a mod approach based upon the individual. I am keen to look at whether the type of diet started and when has an effct on control. Or by who - you know that I feel alot of other HP should not be giving advice as they do not have a depth of knowledge!

Looking at the success stories Ally, what would your advice be to those who have achieved good HbA1c's through Low Carbing, if you suggest introducing more carbs would this not lead to increased BG, if so what steps “anecdotally” would you recommend to counteract this as far as I can see the use of medications would be the only way for me.


graham - it is very innocent to think those low carb companies are not making money!
[/quote] :roll:

Were have I ever stated that Low Carb companies don't make money, having said that their profits are minuscule compare to the vast amounts made by the high carb companies.

Regards
Graham

Back later Phoenix :wink: