DUK - Eating Well with T2 - DOH!!!!

IanD

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Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
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Carbohydrates
ally5555 said:
omg - how to follow all that!

Yes Ian I know plenty of dietitians who teach carb counting / restriction - what ever it may be called will really depend upon the pt - some do not even know what a carb is!
And yes I will be telling nurse in question.
.....
However back to the theme of this I think you will find that many Dietitians do not support DMUK dietary advice . On a dietitians only forum there is a general consensus that they are out of touch with reality - encouraging sugar laden foods is a ridiculous idea but I do not think they will change their mind on this.
Ally, you've seen the latest advice from DUK Eating well with Type 2 diabetes.

You take a professional & informed approach, so please give your opinion on these points:

1. They are concerned at loss of brain function (glucose from carbohydrate is essential to ... the brain. P4.) Most of us are trying to get HBA in the region of 5-6.5, & non-diabs have a lower HBA.
Q1a. At what HBA does brain deterioration take place?
Q1b. Has anyone ever suffered loss of brain function through a LC diet?
Q1c. Any other comments?

2. We are recommended to eat 7-14 portions per day of starchy foods. (p.12-13)
One portion is 1 slice of bread (14 g carb) so the equivalent of 100-200 g carbs.
Or 1/2 baked potato (28 g carb) so 200-400 g carb.
That is before the banana (23 g carb) & 4 other fruit & veg, & before the pt of milk (30 g carb)

From your previous comments about DUK's diet recommendations, I am pretty sure you will agree with me that such recommendations prove conclusively that the DUK dietitians are already brain damaged, but I want to be constructive & helpful as DUK patients are being force fed with such rubbish. I believed I should follow their dietary advice until the predicted complications set in.

How can Hana & I convince the DUK dietitians that they are bananas when we see them this Saturday :?: :?: :?:
"Support for Self-management Training Event."
 

cugila

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Hi IanD.
pt of milk (30 g carb)

I make a pint of Whole milk to be 20 - 22g carbs, Collins Calorie Counter and The Calorie Carb and Fat bible 2009.
450 mil approx in a pint.
So 100 mil has a carb value of 4.7g, divide this by 100 = 0.047g.
Multiply this by 450 mil (pint) = 21.15g carbs approx.

Rest of the post is brilliant BTW. :D Best of luck with Hana, do be careful out there.
 

graham64

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Hi Phoenix
Graham, you are selective once more and obviously have little understanding of the funding of a project, the piece of research you refer to is just that, a piece of research by scientists.It's main funders were the National Heart Foundation of Australia and the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia.

various food companies donated foods for the study. The foods were needed as this was needed as providing them was a way of keeping the integrity of the diets, as you must by now realise any research into diets is beset with the problem of adherance(maybe you think the researchers should 'grow their own) The firm you refer to not only has large interests in fruit and veg, they are virtually all aspects of beef production !

Was it not you that was being selective by choosing a study on non diabetics on a calorie controlled diet. I do "understand" that none of the big food companies or pharma's will support a controlled long term study on Low Carb for Diabetics, hardly in their interests now is it. The only sizeable study of any length on LC that I know of is the DUK Exeter one that was concluded a while ago but still remains unpublished? Look at what DUK said in the reponse to gbtykes email, why if they have these inconclusive results do they not publish them.

From the reponse to gbtykes email.
We are sorry to hear that you don’t agree with our dietary advice, but I would like to reassure you that our advice is based on current research and is also in line with recommendations given by the Food Standards Agency. Diabetes UK have commissioned research into the effects of low carbohydrate diets for people with diabetes; as yet, we are unable to recommend this diet as there are no conclusive results on how low carbohydrate diets may affect people on a long-term basis.

Your last point.
Finally, as an aside, and a way of explanation. As Ally says there are some ex members of this forum that caused animosity on here, one of whom continues to take postings out of context, quoting them and resorting to mockiery on a blog site. This is a form of cyberbullyiing and is very upsetting and disturbing.Even in this thread there was a veiled reference to the perpetrator.
That is why people perhaps become rather 'touchy' in their responses and I'm sorry for how that effects discusions still.

I agree with this, I went on a diabetics blog spot recently whilst this was not to bad apart from what looked suspiciusly like posts I have seen here especially a recent one about fibre. What caught my eye was the "I enjoy these blogs" in the blog roll section with a direct link to another blog by an ex member and as you say taking postings out of context and resorting to mockery, I can see how it would upset some people.

Regards
Graham
 

IanD

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2,429
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Carbohydrates
Ken said:
450 mil approx in a pint.
timo2 said:
Ian is obviously still working in imperial measures, Ken.
If you are going to "correct" another's post, get your facts right first.
1pint = 568 ml, & 4.8% carb = 27.26 per pt which I rounded up to 30.

Tim, I worked as a professional scientist, inventing & developing new products, for 40 years & had to give careful attention to units. A early one was grams per square foot - the factory had a metric scale & imperial length measurement. Insisting on consistent units would have put the burden of conversion on the factory. I also did machine code computer programming, developed bar code printing & reading & interpretation ... I know my units.

DUK are still working in Imperial & mixed units - number, spoons, pots, slice, glass, pints, matchboxes, etc, with SI units bracketed. Obviously they would get better results if they used ass & elbow units. :lol:
 

cugila

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Ian.
My humble apologies. I hadn't realised that the three books published in the UK that I looked in were all using US pints so the figure you quote is correct. I stand severely chastised....... :oops:
Put it down to old age. :(

Gone off to the dunces corner....................................................... :arrow:
 

veggienft

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46
.
I consider the subject of this discussion to be ideas and social structure, not individuals. Defeating faulty ideas and social structures can represent a threat to entrenched proponents.

........side effect. My advice? It is what it is.

Lost in the "carbs are necessary" side of this discussion is, we're discussing diets for type 2 diabetics, not athletes or people who don't have, or are not threatened by, diabetes. Fat metabolism is at least six times as efficient as carb metabolism. However, people with healthy metabolic pathways are capable of surpassing this efficiency with sheer carb processing volume.

There are many cause levels of type 2 diabetes. Effective treatment of type 2 diabetes can attack it on any of these levels, and use various methods. Unfortunately type 2 diabetes is a progressive disease. Curing it requires curing the processes at all of the cause levels. Past some level of progression, cures may not be possible.

People who present with excess blood fat and blood sugar can manage the blood symptoms by cutting back on fat and sugar ingestion. It's a bandaid. But low carbing is also a little bandaid-ish. It simply avoids mitochondrial metabolism, and the pathways which feed it. The symptoms go away, but not the cause.
..
 

Bluenosesol

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Type of diabetes
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Hi Veggie,

I am a little disheartened by your message, but I may well have interpreted you incorrectly. Are you saying that ALL efforts to regress diabetic symptoms are band aid to a degree on the assumption that the progressive nature of diabetes ensures that it will get us all in the end or are you saying something else?

Also an observation on reducing fats by reducing intake. I reduced my triglycerides from 7.7 to 1, by massively reducing my dietary carbs and significantly increasing my dietary fats. I understand that there are some latter day discoveries which are beginning to indicate that HDL is good cholesterol and even a componenet of LDL is now good cholesterol, but Triglycerides are definitely bad?...

(I hope my lack of scientific graso and knowledge isnt too evident here :? :oops: )

Regards Steve.
 

Bel_B

Member
Messages
10
Type of diabetes
Type 2
I think the overwhelming reaction to reading these posts is....people with diabetes, especially type 2, are all 'lumped' together when it comes to advice from HP, dieticians etc ....they possibly have read the info from DUK and/or info on here....result is utter confusion! I know (now) what works for me but, I wouldn't presume to know what works for anyone else. I do feel that there is a great deal of merit in reducing your carb intake....it certainly changed my health for the better and I cannot accept that having Hb levels of 5ish will be detrimental to my cognitive processing unless someone presents me with absolute proof! In fact I am more alert than I have been for years! My point (eventually) is, a more individual approach is needed and until that is recognised by GPs especially, there will continue to be a huge percentage of diabetics who have no idea whose advice to follow. One size does not fit all.

I have to add....this is the only place which mentioned low/reduced carbing that I have been on....I read through some advice on here earlier in the year ( had to rejoin after forgetting my user name!) and it has been of immense help to me....info from my GP and others has been worse than useless! We need clarity...good sound info, with options on different approaches
 

veggienft

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Hi Steve,

Type 2 diabetes is characterized first by a constant flood of insulin. Later, the pancreas can lose the ability to produce insulin. This final stage of T2D may be irreversible. It may not be, but this late-stage "level of progression" is the level which threatens T2D curability.

Low carb is the most effective standard treatment, more effective than medicine. But when a low-carb type 2 diabetic starts back eating even moderate carbs, the symptoms return. This says the low carb treatment level is somewhere above the cause level.

I admit to being a bit of a cause nut. Placing the facts together is a matter of theory. There's strong evidence that T2D originates in the gut. Gastric bypass is fraught with problems. But for some amount of time, it cures type 2 diabetes in every T2D patient who tries it.

Type 1 diabetes is strongly associated with celiac disease. Patients consume sugar, and the gut grows microorganisms. The gut's immune system reacts by releasing the protein zonulin. Zonulin makes the gut walls porous, and dumps the undigested gut contents into the bloodstream for the blood's immune system to handle. Somehow the digestive immune system loses acuity, and loses the ability to distinguish gut microorganisms from certain agricultural proteins .......starting with gluten from grassy grains. The immune system then responds to ag protein ingestion by dumping the proteins, undigested, into the bloodstream.

For type 2 diabetics the loss of immune acuity is confined to the gut. For type 1 diabetics, it includes the circulatory system. In both types, the undigested ag proteins mimic bodily proteins. They mimic endorphin, plug into pancreas nerves and cause a flood of insulin. They mimic insulin, plug into adipose insulin receptors, and inhibit sugar and fat absorption.

The immune systems of type 1 diabetics respond, and attack the pancreas. The immune systems of type 2 diabetics do not respond. Type 2 diabetics just get stuck with circulating fat, sugar and insulin. Their mitochondria can't get to the food to process it.

So at this level, the cause is ingested sugar and genetics-dependent ag proteins. Instead of low carbing, type 2 diabetics can identify the ag proteins they react to. Stop ingesting all sugars, and the identified ag proteins. It does what low carbing can't do. It starves the blood of the causes of insulin release and insulin resistance. It restores digestion, and restores mitochondrial metabolism.

But wade further back up the cause stream. Remember? The gut's zonulin reaction is caused by loss of immune acuity, a loss propagated to the circulatory systems of type 1 diabetics.

There has to be a cause for this loss of acuity. This cause lies in the mechanics of how antibodies store information on attacking antigens, pass the information to the spleen and thymus, and create antigen-specific antibodies. These immune functions rely on a specific chemical transport mechanism common to the antibodies, and the nerves of the thymus and spleen.

It is the Kv1.3 voltage-gated potassium channel. It passes information from one entity to the other by moving calcium across cell membranes. The nerve system which maintains the potassium-channel platform is the orexin system. It is centered in the hypothalamus. It is subject to attack by several nerve viruses. The most notorious of these viruses are herpes viruses, specifically varicella zoster.

A system-wide cure of type 2 diabetes would necessarily include treating all cause levels, including a month-long course of antiviral drug(s), like Acyclovir or Valtrex ......perhaps in combination with Tamiflu.
 

veggienft

Well-Known Member
Messages
46
Are these theories or do you have any research to back up your post?


As I said, I included facts. Tying the facts together is my theory. Interspersing link references would have diluted the message, and you probably would not have cared enough to ask this question.

Orexins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orexin

Clofazimine combats autoimmune disease by restoring potassium channels:
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/leprosy- ... 18392.html

Gene mutations reveal the rolls of potassium channels in organ transduction nerves:
http://www.news-medical.net/news/200909 ... ction.aspx

Blockade of the voltage-gated potassium channel Kv1.3 inhibits immune responses in vivo
http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/abs ... 58/11/5120

The voltage-gated potassium channel Kv1.3 regulates peripheral insulin sensitivity
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC365752/

Celiac disease, via zonulin, defines the digestive route to all blood-based autoimmune disease:
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/leprosy- ... 18392.html
http://www.canibaisereis.com/download/c ... prises.pdf

Beta endorphin in the human pancreas:
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:6107317/pmid/cit

Cereal grains cause disease through mimicry:
http://www.patienthealthyself.info/Celi ... ticle.html


I've got lots more. There's even juicier detail, but the outline expands substantially.


Oops, I left out a couple of important components.

The digestive immune system releases porosity-causing zonulin in the presence of bacteria:
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:12404235

Lancet 2003: The digestive immune system mistakes gluten for candida albicans fungus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826451
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