Eating 5-6 small meals/snacks instead of 2-3 large meals

[Deleted member 567281]

I'm doing (trying to do) 12-8 intermittent fasting, so I skip breakfast and start eating at around mid-day (sometimes a bit sooner if I'm very hungry) - trying to keep the carbs as low as I can, but as I don't eat much meat, it's not that easy. Half an avocado with an egg on a thin slice of pumpernickel bread is a staple for my first meal, or a variation of salads with humous and tuna/cheese, olive oil etc. My problem is that I can't eat too much in one go and I get hungry within two hours of my first meal, so I tend to snack every two hours thereafter. My snacks are usually a handful of nuts, wholegrain crackers with peanut butter or cream cheese, fruit, etc and countless cups of tea (decaf after 4 pm) with milk. I'm trying to keep the carbs under 15-20g per snack/meal and aim for complex carbs from wholefoods, mainly plant-based. It adds up to about 100-120g carbs per day (maybe 150g on some days), so not keto. I'm not trying to lose weight, just want to stabilise my blood sugar.

So from a blood sugar point of view - am I doing the right thing by eating every two hours or would it be better to eat bigger meals less frequently? Most of the time even my evening meal is only snack sized and I often have a very small snack (like a few spoonful of plain yoghurt or kefir with flax seeds/chia seeds or nuts as an example) before going to bed at around 10pm - which obviously breaks the 12-8 pattern, but I pretend it doesn't count!

I guess my concern is that by eating so often I might negatively impact my metabolism trying to balance my blood sugar? Or is it a good thing as long as I keep my portions low carb?

 

[bulkbiker]

I think you are priming yourself to be hungry with what you are eating.
Pumpernickel bread, wholegrain crackers , fruit (depending on the type) are likely to produce a blood sugar spike then a drop which will create more hunger.

I'd suggest eating more for your first meal. More fats and proteins for satiety then see how long you can wait until you feel really hungry again.

You might be surprised.

Try cream in the drinks too rather than milk.

Bigger more satisfying meals less frequently is my suggestion.

 

[HSSS]

A couple of things to consider. First is 120g a day might be enough to lower your blood glucose. It might not. A fair number of us need noticeably lower amounts to get where we want to go. The best way is to test to know what your body is doing and how it is responding. Second each time you eat any carbs (and to a much lesser extent protein) it raises blood glucose to some degree or another and thus causes an insulin response. If like most type 2 you already have an excess of insulin even more of the same this will keep adding to insulin resistance. So in that sense fewer larger meals are better as they allow levels to drop back to baseline between feeds rather than keep topping them up. That’s also why intermittent fasting/time restricted eating helps.

Doing either cutting carbs or restricting eating windows means lowering blood glucose (and insulin). It does not need to mean weight loss or hunger. Add more healthy naturally occurring fats (and proteins) to counter both issues rather than carbs.

Is the being unable to eat larger meals a fixed thing or something that could change? If you really can’t do bigger meals I’d try at least to bunch the carbs together into just a few occasions and keep the in between top ups to fat/protein alone to minimise the insulin peaks as much as possible.

 

[Deleted member 567281]

I think you are priming yourself to be hungry with what you are eating.
Pumpernickel bread, wholegrain crackers , fruit (depending on the type) are likely to produce a blood sugar spike then a drop which will create more hunger.

I'd suggest eating more for your first meal. More fats and proteins for satiety then see how long you can wait until you feel really hungry again.

You might be surprised.

Try cream in the drinks too rather than milk.

Bigger more satisfying meals less frequently is my suggestion.

Will it still spike blood sugar levels even if I keep it under 15 grams carbs per snack though? I'm thinking a larger meal will have higher levels of carbs as - wouldn't that spike BG even more? I'm eating the same amount really, just spreading it out - not trying to do keto/lose weight.

 

[Deleted member 567281]

A couple of things to consider. First is 120g a day might be enough to lower your blood glucose. It might not. A fair number of us need noticeably lower amounts to get where we want to go. The best way is to test to know what your body is doing and how it is responding. Second each time you eat any carbs (and to a much lesser extent protein) it raises blood glucose to some degree or another and thus causes an insulin response. If like most type 2 you already have an excess of insulin even more of the same this will keep adding to insulin resistance. So in that sense fewer larger meals are better as they allow levels to drop back to baseline between feeds rather than keep topping them up. That’s also why intermittent fasting/time restricted eating helps.

Doing either cutting carbs or restricting eating windows means lowering blood glucose (and insulin). It does not need to mean weight loss or hunger. Add more healthy naturally occurring fats (and proteins) to counter both issues rather than carbs.

Is the being unable to eat larger meals a fixed thing or something that could change? If you really can’t do bigger meals I’d try at least to bunch the carbs together into just a few occasions and keep the in between top ups to fat/protein alone to minimise the insulin peaks as much as possible.

But wouldn't "bunching the carbs" cause a bigger rise - rather than spreading out the same amount of carbs? That's what confuses me! Yesterday my fasting BG was higher than my BG after snacking on some homemade seed crackers and cheese (5.8 vs 4.9) - which again is so confusing! I haven't been diagnosed with diabetes, but I do have issues with hypo episodes following more carb dense meals, which is part of the reason I try to eat smaller meals - and then it's easier to keep the carbs within range as well. I guess it depends how much my BG is spiked by each snack. I really need to get one of those continuous monitors to see what's going on!

 

[bulkbiker]

I'm thinking a larger meal will have higher levels of carbs as - wouldn't that spike BG even more?

Well the best thing to do would be eat an ultra low carb large meal.
Greater satiety .. there are no "essential carbs" so..

Edit to add.. when first starting out I aimed for under 20 g per day.

 

[KennyA]

But wouldn't "bunching the carbs" cause a bigger rise - rather than spreading out the same amount of carbs? That's what confuses me! Yesterday my fasting BG was higher than my BG after snacking on some homemade seed crackers and cheese (5.8 vs 4.9) - which again is so confusing! I haven't been diagnosed with diabetes, but I do have issues with hypo episodes following more carb dense meals, which is part of the reason I try to eat smaller meals - and then it's easier to keep the carbs within range as well. I guess it depends how much my BG is spiked by each snack. I really need to get one of those continuous monitors to see what's going on!

What numbers do you see now through your snacking period when you test? And I'm not sure what you mean by saying "hypo episodes following more carb-dense meals". If anything I would expect anyone's BG to rise rather than fall after a lot of carbs. What's actually happening?

 

[Deleted member 567281]

What numbers do you see now through your snacking period when you test? And I'm not sure what you mean by saying "hypo episodes following more carb-dense meals". If anything I would expect anyone's BG to rise rather than fall after a lot of carbs. What's actually happening?

Well, I've just checked my levels at 4:30 pm - 5.0. I've been pretty much snacking all day since 10:30 (couldn't wait until mid-day!). I did eat a mealy type thing that was actually heavy on carbs, though quite healthy (rolled oats/mashed banana/egg pancakes) - but I only ate about half of it, so about 30 grams in carbs, maybe a bit more. I measured my BG about 40-50 minutes after eating this first meal, to see if I got a spike: it was 6.1 so not too bad. Then later I had a handful of pistachio nuts, a few more bites of my pancakes, a small piece of homemade low carb seed cracker with cheese, 2-3 cups of tea with oat milk - all on separate occasions. I don't feel too hungry now, even though I last ate more than two hours ago.

I usually get my hypos while walking home from work - it's a 3-mile walk! I'm sure it's the exercise causing it - I've noticed if I eat something like a banana just before I leave, it doesn't happen. I think it's reactive hypoglycaemia. I've never measured my levels in that state as it would be difficult, but I get so weak, I almost collapse (hot, sweaty, dizzy, heart palpitations, the works). As soon as I eat something I'm fine. Funnily enough, it never happens on the way to work - provided that I don't eat any breakfast! (that's why I decided to skip breakfast).

So I guess the question is, is it better to eat 2-3 meals or 5-6 meals with the same number of carbs evenly distributed within the eating window? Because I eat such small amounts in one go, it doesn't seem to spike my BG too high - but I do need to eat more frequently to keep going.

 

[Deleted member 567281]

Well the best thing to do would be eat an ultra low carb large meal.
Greater satiety .. there are no "essential carbs" so..

Edit to add.. when first starting out I aimed for under 20 g per day.

That sounds brutal!

 

[KennyA]

Well, I've just checked my levels at 4:30 pm - 5.0. I've been pretty much snacking all day since 10:30 (couldn't wait until mid-day!). I did eat a mealy type thing that was actually heavy on carbs, though quite healthy (rolled oats/mashed banana/egg pancakes) - but I only ate about half of it, so about 30 grams in carbs, maybe a bit more. I measured my BG about 40-50 minutes after eating this first meal, to see if I got a spike: it was 6.1 so not too bad. Then later I had a handful of pistachio nuts, a few more bites of my pancakes, a small piece of homemade low carb seed cracker with cheese, 2-3 cups of tea with oat milk - all on separate occasions. I don't feel too hungry now, even though I last ate more than two hours ago.

I usually get my hypos while walking home from work - it's a 3-mile walk! I'm sure it's the exercise causing it - I've noticed if I eat something like a banana just before I leave, it doesn't happen. I think it's reactive hypoglycaemia. I've never measured my levels in that state as it would be difficult, but I get so weak, I almost collapse (hot, sweaty, dizzy, heart palpitations, the works). As soon as I eat something I'm fine. Funnily enough, it never happens on the way to work - provided that I don't eat any breakfast! (that's why I decided to skip breakfast.

So I guess the question is, is it better to eat 2-3 meals or 5-6 meals with the same number of carbs evenly distributed within the eating window? Because I eat such small amounts in one go, it doesn't seem to spike my BG too high - but I do need to eat more frequently to keep going.

I can't be entirely sure about this, because we all react to things slightly differently. However - I think it's unlikely that you saw the actual high after your banana/oats/egg pancake meal (might be healthy for you, definitely not for me). That normally takes about two hours to develop, so you may still have been on the rise higher than the 6.1 after 40-50 minutes.

As other people have mentioned, you are eating quite a few carbs. That is not necessarily an issue, as I understand your aim is solely to control your BG. I suspect what you're experiencing is what a lot of us get in the early days of reducing carbs - false hypos. I got "false hypos" - they're false because your BG is not actually low - it's just gone from a higher level to a lower one, even if the lower level is still quite high. So someone's BGs might fall from 9.5 to 6.5, and the reaction is as you describe, although the BG has never actually been truly low.

Real hypos are when your BG is under 3.9, and I don't think any of your readings have been that low.

I think what might be happening is that you're constantly topping up your blood sugars with carb snacking, then you feel dizzy and faint when you exercise and your BG comes down a bit, and then you top it up again. It doesn't happen in the mornings because your BG is relatively stable. Once you add some carbs, the yo-yo system starts up. I think it might well continue as long as you continue to follow your current eating pattern. That is really something for you to decide.

 

[bulkbiker]

That sounds brutal!

Not really it was for my health after all..

 

[HSSS]

Yesterday my fasting BG was higher than my BG after snacking on some homemade seed crackers and cheese (5.8 vs 4.9) - which again is so confusing!

Not at all unusual. Do some reading on dawn phenomenon. We all get a shot of glucose from out liver to get us up and going in the morning. In type 2 it gets a bit uncontrolled. Whilst you are not yet full on type 2 yet it always begins as prediabetes first and it’s a scale not a switch. (Although not all prediabetes always becomes type 2 it often does). The morning fasted reading can easily be the highest of the day when eating low carb and a seed cracker and cheese sounds likely low carb to me. It’s also often the last one to come back into the normal range even when the rest of the day is good.

As the others have said it’s your call but I suspect constant snacking with noticeable carbs will just keep topping up your glucose, insulin and hunger. The false hypo is definitely possible. The only way to know is to test when you feel that way. A continuous monitor would be great to see what’s happening and when as fingerpricks can miss highs and lows so easily.

and yes the rise from a large meal might be a bit more but it is not the linear relationship you assume. Also it allows levels to return to baseline Which yours aren’t doing til you finally stop eating. The best option is to eat the right foods that fill you up without spiking you too much. Are you unwilling to reduce the carbs further for a reason?

 

[Deleted member 567281]

Not at all unusual. Do some reading on dawn phenomenon. We all get a shot of glucose from out liver to get us up and going in the morning. In type 2 it gets a bit uncontrolled. Whilst you are not yet full on type 2 yet it always begins as prediabetes first and it’s a scale not a switch. (Although not all prediabetes always becomes type 2 it often does). The morning fasted reading can easily be the highest of the day when eating low carb and a seed cracker and cheese sounds likely low carb to me. It’s also often the last one to come back into the normal range even when the rest of the day is good.

As the others have said it’s your call but I suspect constant snacking with noticeable carbs will just keep topping up your glucose, insulin and hunger. The false hypo is definitely possible. The only way to know is to test when you feel that way. A continuous monitor would be great to see what’s happening and when as fingerpricks can miss highs and lows so easily.

and yes the rise from a large meal might be a bit more but it is not the linear relationship you assume. Also it allows levels to return to baseline Which yours aren’t doing til you finally stop eating. The best option is to eat the right foods that fill you up without spiking you too much. Are you unwilling to reduce the carbs further for a reason?

re: willingness to reduce carbs - I just find keto too restrictive and I don't like meat - I do eat dairy, eggs, chicken and fish though. I watched a few videos by Dr Berg (I'm sure you're familiar with him) and he recommends eating 4 eggs a day? Now that's just too crazy for me. I know eggs have been rehabilitated recently but I'm still a bit sceptical regarding their effects on cholesterol. And the whole keto diet doesn't seem very healthy to me - I have no problem cutting out added sugar, refined carbs and processed food completely (good riddance!) - but I wouldn't give up wholefoods like oats, rye and other grains, legumes like beans and lentils, root vegetables like carrots, beetroot and sweet potatoes and basically most fruits - apples and bananas especially. I'm sure it's a good short-term option for people who need to lose weight quickly, but I don't see how it could be healthy long term. At the same time, I realise the importance of reducing carbs in general, just not to that extent!

Of course, you can try and convince me?

 

[bulkbiker]

I wouldn't give up wholefoods like oats, rye and other grains, legumes like beans and lentils, root vegetables like carrots, beetroot and sweet potatoes and basically most fruits - apples and bananas especially.

Then I'm afraid that you may be in for future problems.

Root veg and bananas are pretty high carb ... apples you might get away with in moderation.

 

[KennyA]

re: willingness to reduce carbs - I just find keto too restrictive and I don't like meat - I do eat dairy, eggs, chicken and fish though. I watched a few videos by Dr Berg (I'm sure you're familiar with him) and he recommends eating 4 eggs a day? Now that's just too crazy for me. I know eggs have been rehabilitated recently but I'm still a bit sceptical regarding their effects on cholesterol. And the whole keto diet doesn't seem very healthy to me - I have no problem cutting out added sugar, refined carbs and processed food completely (good riddance!) - but I wouldn't give up wholefoods like oats, rye and other grains, legumes like beans and lentils, root vegetables like carrots, beetroot and sweet potatoes and basically most fruits - apples and bananas especially. I'm sure it's a good short-term option for people who need to lose weight quickly, but I don't see how it could be healthy long term. At the same time, I realise the importance of reducing carbs in general, just not to that extent!

Of course, you can try and convince me?

Yes, I used to think the Eatwell diet was a good thing. I reduced my red meat intake to next to nothing, used no sugar, hardly any eggs. No fats. I ate wholefoods, porridge, tons of fruit, cereals (not packet things), legumes, pasta, wholemeal bread, rice, and root veg. I lived 90% off carbohydrate. And of course I got type 2 diabetes.

My blood sugars started to rise. My weight started to rise. I doubled down on the "healthy eating" stuff and within a couple of years had my first diabetic symptoms: the first was oedema, then cuts not healing, etc. Those increased in number and got steadily worse.

It was only when I started keto at 20g carb/day that my blood glucose went back to normal. That took less than four months. My diabetic symptoms have gone (although I have some permanent damage). I have lost the weight I gained. My cholesterol initially rose but is now falling and is the lowest it's ever been (I don't think this makes a bit of difference, but there it is). I play football twice a week and do pilates, both of which I'd had to give up.

Three years in and I don't see keto/low carb as a short-term thing. I only wish someone had had this conversation with me fourteen years ago.

 

[Deleted member 567281]

I can't be entirely sure about this, because we all react to things slightly differently. However - I think it's unlikely that you saw the actual high after your banana/oats/egg pancake meal (might be healthy for you, definitely not for me). That normally takes about two hours to develop, so you may still have been on the rise higher than the 6.1 after 40-50 minutes.

As other people have mentioned, you are eating quite a few carbs. That is not necessarily an issue, as I understand your aim is solely to control your BG. I suspect what you're experiencing is what a lot of us get in the early days of reducing carbs - false hypos. I got "false hypos" - they're false because your BG is not actually low - it's just gone from a higher level to a lower one, even if the lower level is still quite high. So someone's BGs might fall from 9.5 to 6.5, and the reaction is as you describe, although the BG has never actually been truly low.

Real hypos are when your BG is under 3.9, and I don't think any of your readings have been that low.

I think what might be happening is that you're constantly topping up your blood sugars with carb snacking, then you feel dizzy and faint when you exercise and your BG comes down a bit, and then you top it up again. It doesn't happen in the mornings because your BG is relatively stable. Once you add some carbs, the yo-yo system starts up. I think it might well continue as long as you continue to follow your current eating pattern. That is really something for you to decide.

I will probably not know what's really going on until I get a continuous glucose monitor. The reason I checked my levels sooner today rather than waiting the full 2 hours after the meal was because the day before yesterday I had a similar meal and my levels were back to the same level in two hours as before the meal (5.2) - and I was curious to see how high a peak would be. I assumed that the peak would happen earlier (which I think it did). Overall, my numbers seem to range between 4.9 and 6.1 (fasting/before/after meals). Isn't that pretty close to base line? I can't confirm hypo because it only ever happens when I'm out and about.

 

[Deleted member 567281]

Then I'm afraid that you may be in for future problems.

Root veg and bananas are pretty high carb ... apples you might get away with in moderation.

I know - that's why I never eat more than half an apple or half a banana in one go. But not all carbs are created equal - the fibre in fruit and veg counterbalance their carb content to some extent. I will never give up fruit for pork scratchings!

 

[KennyA]

I will probably not know what's really going on until I get a continuous glucose monitor. The reason I checked my levels sooner today rather than waiting the full 2 hours after the meal was because the day before yesterday I had a similar meal and my levels were back to the same level in two hours as before the meal (5.2) - and I was curious to see how high a peak would be. I assumed that the peak would happen earlier (which I think it did). Overall, my numbers seem to range between 4.9 and 6.1 (fasting/before/after meals). Isn't that pretty close to base line? I can't confirm hypo because it only ever happens when I'm out and about.

I think those numbers might fall within the "normal" range - in that they predict an HbA1c in normal range . There's a calculator on the main website here.

It is of course possible for any of us to miss a high point, but the other thing is that a lower but longer rise can be problematic too. It's entirely normal for BGs to rise after eating - the real issue is how quickly they return to normal levels, because that shows how efficient your insulin is being at taking the glucose out of your blood.

So - I would expect if I was eating something flour-based to see a very rapid rise from around 5(ish) to maybe 8 after an hour and 11 or 12 after two, but dropping only slowly and maybe still at 6.5 or more the following morning. My system is good at making glucose out of flour and putting it into my blood, but rubbish at getting it out of my blood and into my cells.

 

[EllieM]

I will probably not know what's really going on until I get a continuous glucose monitor. The reason I checked my levels sooner today rather than waiting the full 2 hours after the meal was because the day before yesterday I had a similar meal and my levels were back to the same level in two hours as before the meal (5.2) - and I was curious to see how high a peak would be. I assumed that the peak would happen earlier (which I think it did). Overall, my numbers seem to range between 4.9 and 6.1 (fasting/before/after meals). Isn't that pretty close to base line? I can't confirm hypo because it only ever happens when I'm out and about.

Could you take a meter in your pocket.? I know you are supposed to wash hands before testing but in my experience as long as you wash them after eating it's usually not that critical.

I think you really need to know whether you are actually having hypos. (Reactive hypoglycemia is a thing and one of its possible causes is the carbs but other triggers are exercise and there are other causes for hypos as well). Also, I think you say in another thread that you haven't had an hba1c done yet?

A lot of the T2s here go very low carb because they need to in order to keep their levels down, and some do it because they find it easier to go very low rather than moderately low. Everyone makes their own choices to suit their own metabolism.

At the moment you don't really know whether you are prediabetic or whether you are having true hypos. Both those questions are very important.

 

[Lupf]

Hi @Susan369 your profile says you are prediabetic, how high is your HbA1c?
Do you have any symptoms of diabetes, like thirsty, tingling feet, blurring vision?
If not you might only need small adjustments to what you eat.
There is a huge range on how many carbs T2 diabetics can tolerate,
so 150 g could be just fine for some where as for others, 20 g is the maximum.
You need to measure the impact of food.
As long as your BG numbers are around around 5 (possibly 6) before eating
and spikes 2 h after eating are less than 2 and don't continue to rise
you could be ok as you are never in the diabetic range.
It is normal that BG levels rise after eating.
I honestly think well-intentioned advice to go very low carb might be misplaced at this stage.
@Susan369 needs to find out for herself which part of her diet she can tolerate
and what is causing spikes.

Regarding your question on snacking. In my view there is no evidence
why eating often is better than eating up to 3 times a day and plenty to the contrary.
Basically snacking leads to more snacking and more total calories,
which could lead to gaining weight or too much carbs which could lead to diabetes.
Read the book Diabetes Code by Jason Fung if you want to know more.
In my experience stopping snacking was one of the low-hanging fruits
after my diagnosis. I was surprised how quickly I got used to it.
Consider switching to breakfast, lunch and dinner.
For intermittent fasting you can skip any of these.

When eating a whole meal one needs to make sure that
there is adequate fat and protein as fat is much more satiating,
than carbs, which will make you hungry again after two hours.
Compare eating an omelette with eating cornflakes for breakfast
if you want to do the experiment yourself