EU - In or Out + Poll.

[Bluetit1802]

@nosher8355

We have been asked how we feel about in or out. Not to argue about it. I have no intention of entering in an argument or debate with you or anyone else. I have added my own point of view. End of.

Thank you for the compliment. Even dyed in the wool tories are allowed to care.

 

[Catlady19]

If we pull out of Europe, one of the first major industrial groups to be hit by tariffs and tax and trade agreements is the car industry, this country is great at building cars, we have the best production figures of all the plants in Europe and in the rest of the world. This country is a world leader in car production. It wouldn't be if we pull out.

How do you know this? Where is the proof?

Trust of the politicians is paramount to me, who do I trust to lead the people, some British Tory MP or some German politician.

I don't trust any politicians but I would still back the British one over a German one - what would be their motivation to help the UK?

When I look at the leave group, I realised most of these people, most of them head or a part of self interest groups and very right wing politics and probably part of the power brokers that have tried to destroy working class rights and are opposed to the rights bill

I personally would not agree with this statement, not all 'out' people I have come across are extreme right wing and likewise 'self interest groups' are shouting for the 'in' groups.

Economics don't come into it for me.

How can it not? £161m a week?????

We have to stay in Europe, we have to be a part of the global coming together.
If we don't stay in, I can see Scotland calling for independence and that would mean Tory rule forever!
That's not a thought I want to live with, as the next prospective candidate for Tory PM is Boris! (OMG!)

I think we can be part of a global coming together without being part of the EU. Scotland have already had a referendum and they voted to stay in, I can't see them doing another one anytime soon. I am not normally a Tory but I actually quite like Boris! Sorry

 

[slip]

Are we getting value for money being 'in'?

 

[RoseofSharon]

I have been fascinated to learn what people actually think we are voting in and out of ... What is the EU?
As far as I am aware, the EU is just a list of treaties, and therefore, we are voting out of one, some or all of them, but I have not seen any MP clearly state which ones we are voting on. I appreciate most people appear to be most concerned about immigration, and that is where every discussion seems to head, but that is such a pointless part of the debate .... If the referendum results in a "Leave" result, at some point a statement needs to be made as to which treaties we are leaving, and to me, it looks like that statement is only going to be made after the referendum has taken place.
My concern is everyone is being asked to vote, but no-one actually knows what we are voting for ... I certainly don't!

The EU is a bit more complicated than that! Basically the EU will ultimately be a union of member states in much the same way as america is. At the moment the push jargon is 'ever closer union' which means the above. When we joined the EU in 1972 the general public was told that it was a trade agreement, which unfortunately is maybe 1/8th of the truth. What we are voting for in June (which btw I'm in the leave camp! i'll explain why a bit later) is whether or not to remain in this 'union' which costs us a bomb just to be a member. The agreements which we are part of as members of the european union are legally binding and have two levels to them: 1. Legislation which takes precedence over British Law, 2. Legislation which the Bristish Gov't is obliged to create British legislation. By joining in 1972 part of the British sovereignty was given away to the EU.

My reasons for voting leave are very simple. 1. Remaining in the EU costs the country too much. From the amount that we pay out to belong to the EU, to the amount that is paid out in wasted red tape, extraneous legislation etc. 2. British Sovereignty should reside in the British Public, The Elected Government of the UK and Her Majesty the Queen. 3. I believe that we should control our own borders.

 

[tim2000s]

Personally, this video sums a lot of the arguments up for me in a succinct and very amusing manner:

 

[Bluetit1802]

Are we getting value for money being 'in'?

We put a lot more money in than we get out.
It is costing the British tax payers millions
We get millions of Eastern EU citizens coming here to work under the freedom of movement laws, with hardly any controls in place.
Why do they come? Because our wages are better, our social security system is better, our living standards are better, our schools and NHS are better.
These millions of Eastern EU citizens are using our NHS.
They are taking up our housing, forcing us to build, build, build.
They are taking up spaces in our schools
They are overloading our GP surgeries
They are also overloading our prisons!

This surge of EU immigrants would cease if we were to leave. We are a small country with a heaving population and our infrastructure can't cope..

 

[tim2000s]

We get millions of Eastern EU citizens coming here to work under the freedom of movement laws, with hardly any controls in place.
Why do they come? Because our wages are better, our social security system is better, our living standards are better, our schools and NHS are better.
These millions of Eastern EU citizens are using our NHS.
They are taking up our housing, forcing us to build, build, build.
They are taking up spaces in our schools
They are overloading our GP surgeries

And unlike a lot of lazy brits, they are paying taxes to do so....

 

[Catlady19]

And unlike a lot of lazy brits, they are paying taxes to do so....

Ah, but are they?

 

[RoseofSharon]

And unlike a lot of lazy brits, they are paying taxes to do so....

Not all brits who are out of work and unable therefore to pay taxes are lazy!!!! Do not believe everything you hear via the media!

 

[azure]

The arguments need careful examination, in my opinion. For example, the money we pay to the EU - how does that compare to what we get back in trade agreements, subsidies and investment? It's not just a case of we pay X amount so we'll be better off because we'll save this if we leave. What if the interest rate goes up? What if we have to pay higher tariffs and the price of food goes up?

There are a number of myths and speculation from both sides, I think, and I believe it's our responsibility to look at both sides and all the facts as carefully as we can before voting.

 

[dawnmc]

I'm fed up of the scaremongering. No one knows what would happen.
I was all for staying then I read some Steve Hilton comments, having said that he's very idealistic. Convincing but idealistic.
The EU is a behemoth, and its all about greed and what each person/company can make.
But they did help women, so I'm still undecided.

 

[Catlady19]

The arguments need careful examination, in my opinion. For example, the money we pay to the EU - how does that compare to what we get back in trade agreements, subsidies and investment? It's not just a case of we pay X amount so we'll be better off because we'll save this if we leave. What if the interest rate goes up? What if we have to pay higher tariffs and the price of food goes up?

There are a number of myths and speculation from both sides, I think, and I believe it's our responsibility to look at both sides and all the facts as carefully as we can before voting.

Yes, I agree. The BBC this morning said that we pay £161m per week after you have deducted everything we get back, that is staggering. Interest rates could go up in either situation and we may have to pay tariffs but we import more than we export. The whole thing is a financial mine field and it is so difficult to find unbiased answers to the financial questions.

 

[Lamont D]

Not to debate the issue, but the proof is out there.
Certainly Toyota, GM, Ford, would not have invested in the massive car plants if we had not been in the Euro zone.
All the other ones you have highlighted are opinions.
But having lived in Berlin in the sixties and worked in the car industry across Europe.
Security is the only key issue for me.
For me we must be a part of the European Union.
Not isolated as a nationalist separatist nation.

 

[azure]

Yes, I agree. The BBC this morning said that we pay £161m per week after you have deducted everything we get back, that is staggering. Interest rates could go up in either situation and we may have to pay tariffs but we import more than we export. The whole thing is a financial mine field and it is so difficult to find unbiased answers to the financial questions.

Exactly - the lack of neutral information can be worrying. I was reading a newspaper while waiting in the dentist the other day. And it soon became clear that that particular paper had 'picked a side'.

Sorry to keep posting BBC links but I do find their info useful. Here's a comparison of both sides of the arguments for key areas (click on an area and read what both the Leave and Remain groups are saying about that subject eg Immigration):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36027205

I found that helpful - seeing the two views side by side for the main issues.

 

[Catlady19]

Sorry to keep posting BBC links

One does hope that the BBC are at least trying to be unbiased!

 

[noblehead]

Still undecided, going to look at it all in more detail nearer the time.

 

[Catlady19]

Just looking at the BBC website and this is what I am finding frustrating - sweeping comments like

• Economic benefits of EU membership easily outweigh the cost

What economic benefits? I want someone to explain and give examples but all you ever get is sweeping statements!

Another one:

• Leaving the EU would see energy bills rise by £500m

Why? And how on earth do they get to that figure?

 

[azure]

Now I'm feeling responsible because I posted that link @Catlady19

What I do is compare each side's basic statements than look for further information online, both from each side's website (for more details of what they're saying) and from other websites. Some things are obvious and don't need any further investigation, but in some areas it's a case of weighing up what each side says and getting as much information as I can to make a decision for that particular area. Then I'll weigh up the results for different areas - financial, immigration, equality, justice, etc - and make my final decision.

 

[Catlady19]

No it is a good website but the problem is, no matter where I look, I cannot get satisfactory answers.

 

[azure]

No it is a good website but the problem is, no matter where I look, I cannot get satisfactory answers.

I think some things can't be said for certain - because no country has left before and we don't know what exactly will happen or if/how we'll make new negotiations. What I do then is try to distinguish between sensible guesses and obvious scaremongering.