Fags and Carbs

[BloodThirsty]

I've been happily settled here for several months so the last thing I want is make myself the centre of a flame war through crass insensitivity. However, a parallel has occurred to me.

My daughter smokes and I have tried everything to dissuade her, ranging from bribery and corruption to mild intimidation and cautionary horror tales that Belloc would be proud of. I remember how hard it was when I packed up myself thirty years ago, but concern for her health keeps me nagging away despite the fact that she is oblivious to any logical evidence that will separate her from her fags.

That is until... she recently bought herself a vapour stick and puffs incessantly on this convinced that she is on the way to quitting. I don't believe for one moment that she doesn't intersperse with the genuine article once out of sight, but I do console myself with the knowledge that she has somewhat reduced her tar input.

Now, despite the anecdotal success stories of the LCHF brigade, how many times have I read that T2s have reduced their daily bread, substituted brown rice for white, quartered their consumption of chocolate cake, or found a source of lower carb spuds, etc.?

I apologise if this sounds like the ramblings of a pompous prat, but my daughter definitely springs to mind.

 

[Resurgam]

There are always those for whom the lure of carbs is a siren song.
It is one reason for testing, even in the face of advice to the opposite - you can't argue with a double digit BG level.

 

[bulkbiker]

Now, despite the anecdotal success stories of the LCHF brigade, how many times have I read that T2s have reduced their daily bread, substituted brown rice for white, quartered their consumption of chocolate cake, or found a source of lower carb spuds, etc.?

So are you saying we're all cheating when you're not around ?
My figures in my signature are correct and real.. however other people could indeed quite easily make things up?
But I think the strengths of something like the Virta health study show that a ketogenic way of eating works because the subjects are regularly tested for the presence of ketones. If they were cheating by sneaking in carbs they would most likely be out of ketosis...but as for other indviduals .. well this is an internet forum so we could in theory all be telling porkies to get you into the great LCHF conspiracy.... or of course we could all be telling the absolute truth.
Having been lucky enough to get to the meet up in Birmingham I can assure you that the people there were as pictured..
Is that what you meant or have I misinterpreted?

 

[Bluetit1802]

Now, despite the anecdotal success stories of the LCHF brigade, how many times have I read that T2s have reduced their daily bread, substituted brown rice for white, quartered their consumption of chocolate cake, or found a source of lower carb spuds, etc.?

and I have to ask, if they achieve remission and maintain it using your examples, why not? As @Resurgam nicely put it, testing regularly is essential if they do this, as you can't argue with double figures, or even undesirable single ones.

I fully understand your daughter. Nagging does not help. She will understand the consequences and potential dangers, nagging is likely to have the opposite effect. Encourage her with the puffer, that may help. Take this from a smoker.

 

[BloodThirsty]

So are you saying we're all cheating when you're not around ?
My figures in my signature are correct and real.. however other people could indeed quite easily make things up?
But I think the strengths of something like the Virta health study show that a ketogenic way of eating works because the subjects are regularly tested for the presence of ketones. If they were cheating by sneaking in carbs they would most likely be out of ketosis...but as for other indviduals .. well this is an internet forum so we could in theory all be telling porkies to get you into the great LCHF conspiracy.... or of course we could all be telling the absolute truth.
Having been lucky enough to get to the meet up in Birmingham I can assure you that the people there were as pictured..
Is that what you meant or have I misinterpreted?

No, my daughter cheats but I'm not saying that this applies to others in general.

The parallel I was attempting to draw is that my daughter is obsessed with somehow finding an alternative to something that is evidentially doing her harm.

We all have to eat some carbs but I guess it is how far we stretch this. For some the addiction to carbs overrides the damage that we know they are doing to us.

 

[bulkbiker]

We all have to eat some carbs

Not nutritionally we don't..there are no essential carbs so what we do have are by choice.
I try not to do the "alternative" carbs at all just eat low/no carb foods partly due to the addiction issues...

 

[Mr_Pot]

A cautionary tale about vaping, I have no idea if there is a carbs parallel, maybe with using sweeteners. My daughter is also a smoker and sounds similar. She went on to e-cigarettes but without the restrictions she smoked anywhere and anytime building up a bigger addiction to nicotine. Then she reverted to cigarettes and now smokes more than before.

 

[Brunneria]

I'm not sure there is really a right or a wrong here.
Except for what is right for me, and what isn't right for me. Or you. Or them.

I read of people who replace ordinary baking for T2 baking. Lots of artificial sweeteners. Bread, muffin and cake replacements.
Well, I have tried that. Thought it was marvellous, for a short time. My husband still does, and I bake regularly for him.
But it never really worked for me. Blood glucose was fine, but the nut flours sit heavy, the calories are horrific (not that I count them ) and it is really hard to get the sweetness right between synthetic after tang and not enough flavour.

So I have kind of given up.

Not through disapproval. More through resignation that they just don't really work for me.
My body can only cope with so much food a day, and subtracting the genuinely healthy stuff for LC baked goods is just a waste of my food capacity.

On the other hand, my husband (and many others) can wolf this kind of stuff down, enjoy it, and flourish on it.
Which makes it wrong for me, and right for them.

Re the smoking (which I think is a disgusting and repulsive habit on about 50 different levels), then if people want to step away from the fags and into vaping, then that is their choice. Provided that they do so with knowledge and understanding of the consequences - and so long as they don't waft their vile cherry tobacco bubblegum revolting vape cloud in my direction.
So no judgement here at all!

I totally agree with @bluetit that nagging and persuading and pressurising is counterproductive - with anything.
Better to simply say 'I hate it. Please do not do it where I can see/smell/know you are doing it. And if you smoke/vape on my property, you will be asked to leave.' I did this with a couple of friends. They were shocked, but had to comply, even if they then chose not to visit again. They had always gone outside to smoke, but the stench lingered on the chair upholstery after they left, simply from contact with their clothes. I chose not to step into a smoker's house, simply because the stink hangs around my own clothes and hair until my next shower.

Like you @BloodThirsty this is something I feel strongly about, but I'm never going to change anyone else. All I can do is insist that they don't do it in my house and garden.

 

[BloodThirsty]

Not nutritionally we don't..there are no essential carbs so what we do have are by choice.
I try not to do the "alternative" carbs at all just eat low/no carb foods partly due to the addiction issues...

You win though I really am on your side.

My HbA1c is 38 and falling as a result of eating as few carbs as possible. Regrettably, a few sprouts of broccoli will still add a few no matter what.

You hit it right on the head with the addiction thing, hence my humble attempt at a fags / carb analogy.

 

[BloodThirsty]

A cautionary tale about vaping, I have no idea if there is a carbs parallel, maybe with using sweeteners. My daughter is also a smoker and sounds similar. She went on to e-cigarettes but without the restrictions she smoked anywhere and anytime building up a bigger addiction to nicotine. Then she reverted to cigarettes and now smokes more than before.

If you find the ultimate motivator please let me know - I will be eternally grateful.

Mine actually stopped smoking throughout her pregnancy (****** hurrah!) and then went straight back on 'em after the event.

Perhaps it's all the fault of the role model who set the example all those years ago

edited by mod for language

 

[bulkbiker]

If you find the ultimate motivator please let me know - I will be eternally grateful.

Pictures of diseased lungs all over the house and ask her how she wants her newly orphaned baby educated maybe?
But then again I'm a bit extreme...
I gave up by getting a new boyfriend who hated being kissed by a smoker.. I became an ex smoker and he's now my husband of 10 years.

 

[BloodThirsty]

Pictures of diseased lungs all over the house and ask her how she wants her newly orphaned baby educated maybe?
But then again I'm a bit extreme...
I gave up by getting a new boyfriend who hated being kissed by a smoker.. I became an ex smoker and he's now my husband of 10 years.

Blimey! That's better than even Belloc could dream up. ;D

 

[mr_cat]

I used to be addicted to cigarettes, old holborn rollies for 30 years.
I tried to stop a few times cut back nic gum etc the stress of the potential loss of smoking would make me smoke more!
I decided in early 2013 that i MUST stop.
The year rolled on and in mid December my smoking addiction was as strong as ever.
Then I was introduced to vaping , within a week I had smoked my last cigarette.
Instead dove headlong into vaping as a hobby and spent a good deal of cash on quality kit.
Having invested in a £250 vaporiser I was not about to chuck it and take up smoking again.
This refocus of attention was part of the process, I see the same here with diet etc.
After some 5 years I make my own liquid and don't even bother with flavours anymore.
I have had the odd roll up just to 'see' and yep with a pint it was nice but i don't have any fear of them the habit is gone.
I prefer vaping so it is possible.
Now as for alcohol a safe alternative for that too and then we would be winning.

 

[BloodThirsty]

An alternative to alcohol? Heaven forbid.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

. . . . . she recently bought herself a vapour stick and puffs incessantly on this convinced that she is on the way to quitting. I don't believe for one moment that she doesn't intersperse with the genuine article once out of sight, but I do console myself with the knowledge that she has somewhat reduced her tar input.

The majority of toxic chemicals found in tobacco smoke are absent in e-cigarette vapor. however, the vapor has been found to contain flavors, propylene glycol, glycerin, nicotine, tiny amounts of toxicants, carcinogens, heavy metals, and metal nanoparticles. There seems to be little data about their safety and variability among e-cigarettes and their liquid ingredients.

Now, despite the anecdotal success stories of the LCHF brigade, how many times have I read that T2s have reduced their daily bread, substituted brown rice for white, quartered their consumption of chocolate cake, or found a source of lower carb spuds, etc.?

If we're just talking about type IIs, there will be many versions of low carb with a lot of people "eating to their meter". Since about 5 years ago I cut my carbs to <50gms per day, then about 2 years ago I had to cut back on protein as well. While on holiday recently I found that I can actually tolerate a little carb without my BG rapidly rising above 10.

 

[SueJB]

No, my daughter cheats but I'm not saying that this applies to others in general.

The parallel I was attempting to draw is that my daughter is obsessed with somehow finding an alternative to something that is evidentially doing her harm.

We all have to eat some carbs but I guess it is how far we stretch this. For some the addiction to carbs overrides the damage that we know they are doing to us.

No we don't have to eat carbs to survive @BloodThirsty but some of us do. I snaffled some of my total carb intake for today on 4 cheese melts, total of 7.2g. I think that everyone enjoys stuff that they know they shouldn't. Food in moderation is magic but a little bit of smoke is as bad as a lot.... I'm an x smoker and know how hard it was to stop but I am doing it. I could quite easily start again. So until your daughter gets some flash, hard to say how effective your words will be. Keep trying though

 

[AloeSvea]

In any conversation about addiction it becomes very obvious that amounts that are safe, and substitutes, is a part of the discussion. For us - it's about sugar and carbs (for those of us who were addicted, and I count myself in there), I couldn't agree more.

I too enter into conversations about addiction to tobacco and the wonders of vaping. I see it as a much much safer substitute, and substituting dangerous ways to serve addictions for less dangerous alternatives, is wonderful. or being lucky enough to keep such to a safe minimum - as I am lucky to be able to do with alcohol, and is actually possible with cigarettes too apparently. The trick is keeping it to a safe minimum with a substance that is addictive. And don't I recognise that with sugar and carbs? Yes. Stevia, for me, a sugar and carb addict, is a lifesaver.

I have a very alive friend who methadone was a safer alternative to heroin. And I am extremely grateful for vaping, with regards to tobacco addicted friends and loved ones, (with that - also snuff as a much safer alternative - the clever Swedes know all about that) and only wished they had been around earlier for my previous three-pack-a-day friend, whose lungs did indeed get devastated, and who we buried last month.

One of the weirdest and saddest experiences I have had, re diabetes, is one that I mention rather a lot in here, as it was so dramatic, was a woman with diabetes going in to hospital the following week to see if diabetes was killing off her second eye, eating cake and drinking coke, which the hostess with prediabetic BG levels had supplied in abundance with nothing without sugar, and lots of it, at her birthday tea. I haven't seen so many cupcakes in that number for years! I watched my prediabetic friend pile into the cake that day, and the day after. And why not? She was the hostess, she bought the cakes, and it had been her birthday. But can it ultimately kill her if she keeps on going? Yes. Just like cigarettes, and heroin. Did she express regret that I didn't eat any of it? Yes! Did I talk to her about diabetes and carbs and so on? Yes. (On a previous occasion - not on her birthday I promise!) Has she taken any notice? No.

Such is the power of addictions, is what we are saying, isn't it?

I am looking forward to the day when it isn't just left up to the likes of us to spread the word about sugar addiction. That governments take on this public health role, and you can go into doctor's surgeries and there are big posters up about the dangers of sugar addictions, public announcements on TV, making Big Food accountable, and there are warning labels on bottles of carbonated sugary drinks, as being particularly dangerous, and addictive. Yes - just like on smoke-able tobacco products.

 

[Jo_the_boat]

@BloodThirsty - ".............nagging away despite the fact that she is oblivious to any logical evidence that will separate her from her fags."

She's not frightened enough.
If she carries on there's a fair chance that a surgeon will separate her from her legs.

 

[JoKalsbeek]

I've been happily settled here for several months so the last thing I want is make myself the centre of a flame war through crass insensitivity. However, a parallel has occurred to me.

My daughter smokes and I have tried everything to dissuade her, ranging from bribery and corruption to mild intimidation and cautionary horror tales that Belloc would be proud of. I remember how hard it was when I packed up myself thirty years ago, but concern for her health keeps me nagging away despite the fact that she is oblivious to any logical evidence that will separate her from her fags.

That is until... she recently bought herself a vapour stick and puffs incessantly on this convinced that she is on the way to quitting. I don't believe for one moment that she doesn't intersperse with the genuine article once out of sight, but I do console myself with the knowledge that she has somewhat reduced her tar input.

Now, despite the anecdotal success stories of the LCHF brigade, how many times have I read that T2s have reduced their daily bread, substituted brown rice for white, quartered their consumption of chocolate cake, or found a source of lower carb spuds, etc.?

I apologise if this sounds like the ramblings of a pompous prat, but my daughter definitely springs to mind.

I am "blessed" with an addictive personality. It's why I don't gamble or drink, (never even started either because I know I won't stop) and why I smoked the house blue when I was hooked on fags. I didn't even like the taste, but I just couldn't cut back. Cold turkey is the only method for me. Thankfully, taking things to extremes is *also* part of my personality. Which is why diet changes/ditching carbs was relatively easy.

I still smoke when I dream. I quit in august 2004! And I do believe, if I light one up today, I'll go through two packs again before nightfall. Vaping might not work if it's an oral fixation thing... I went for laurel based licorice in combination with lasertherapy (only needed one session) . That helped. But I really wanted to quit. Smokes weren't the price they are now, but still more than I could afford. And I hated smelling bad all the time. Half year later I met my husband, who is allergic to any sort of smoke. (Fags, wood, bbq, incense all make his eyes burn and his airways close up). So my timing was quite wonderful. Thing is... She's got to want to.

 

[BloodThirsty]

@BloodThirsty - ".............nagging away despite the fact that she is oblivious to any logical evidence that will separate her from her fags."

She's not frightened enough.
If she carries on there's a fair chance that a surgeon will separate her from her legs.

Hacks' tale about a patient in the next bed to Jeffrey Bernard (he... the celebrated unwell journalist) complaining to the surgeon why he had to have his legs amputated while Jeffrey himself smoked 80 a day and remained crus intacto.

"Well" considered the surgeon "Jeffrey closes his arteries with four packs of cigarettes and opens them up again with two bottles of gin".

)